Hydration Vs. Humidity (Adults Only)

[Saloli]

as for the burrow temp. and humidities i remember seeing something in either herpetologica or the jurnal of herpetology. i can't remember. though the best places to look wouldn't be herpeculture magazines like reptiles or vivarium. though Emys magazine may also be a good place to look or even on of the general ecology magazines

 

[Neal]

as for the burrow temp. and humidities i remember seeing something in either herpetologica or the jurnal of herpetology. i can't remember. though the best places to look wouldn't be herpeculture magazines like reptiles or vivarium. though Emys magazine may also be a good place to look or even on of the general ecology magazines

Did it have any information on humidity and temperature levels?

 

[Saloli]

i think so they were doing a study of burrow structure and requirements for the tortoises but i think it may have been gopher tortoises. though i could be wrong also try looking into symbiotic species that share the burrows that could shed light on the subject because they live with the tortoises in the burrows for example the Eastern Diamondback Rattlesanke lives with Gopher tortoises, and decline when the burrows are destroyed or the tortoises are removed.

 

[Balboa]

There are a few things to note about the TT study (At least IMHO)

This study was done in a very dry area of Spain, so is really only applicable to the torts studied there. Sulcata and leopards SEEM to come from a very different natural environment, not nearly as dry as had been previously assumed.

Primarily adults were found, they didn't find babies AS I RECALL.

The humidity figures were taken during the dry season, with little to no food available. The "common knowledge" even as presented by AH is that during these times tortoises slow their growth. During spring rains, when food is more plentiful, will be the likely time of growth, and average humidity should be much higher. Even as such I RECALL them getting humidity readings of 50% in the grass clumps where they'd find torts. Their point was this is no where near the 80% suggested by many keepers, this is however considerably better than 30% by a large margin and is right at the boundary for pliance/inpliance that AH "has discovered", once again, by my best recollection.

A factor that was not taken into account was the near carapace "micro-climate" that can be created by coverage or limiting the effects of airflow. In other words, a tort is its own humidifier, if covered in dirt, leaves, debris, etc. the carapace will not keep losing moisture in as fast a rate as if fully exposed.

I greatly respect and appreciate that the TT is instead of just talking about it, actually getting out there in the field and doing research. Unfortunately, they are not scientists, and not versed in the scientific methods. They tend to put a spin on their findings which supports their viewpoints. (They look for data that "proves" their point, while discounting or misinterpreting data that contradicts their viewpoint).

 

[Neal]

I agree with you on almost all accounts Balboa. I think they did find some babies, but remember from the OP I'm not trying to discuss the legitimacy of the study, because the entire thing and even the points you bring up are an entirely seperate debate. When mentioning it I tried to not use it to support a point of mine, only to show that, accurate or not, this is all I have to go by as far as humidity levels are concerned where tortoises live naturally. Whether the climate is similar to another tortoises is insignificant, as we know, mediterranean tortoise pyramid as well.

 

[Tom]

Very good post Balboa. Very good.

I also applaud the TT for getting off their duff and doing something, but like you, I also see the limitations of that particular study.

Neal, I like the way your mind works. I've been churning this stuff over just like you are now for 20 years. It never gets better and each answer brings 10 new questions... Enjoy!

Oh, P.S. Neal, I promise you, they smooth out with absolutely no change in husbandry whatsoever. I've seen it hundreds of times and personally experienced it with my own torts and with the torts of close friends dozens of times. There IS one possible factor, and that is moving them outside full time, like your leopard that you showed me. Most of the sulcatas start to smooth right around the same time they get too big to be inside all the time. But what about the ones in the Northern climates that ARE indoors most of the year? They still smooth just as much a that same size...

 

[bikerchicspain]

I actually admire Andy c Highfield, He knows his stuff, I have actually taken part in one study where tortoise being kept with birds end up with very bad infections especially of the otitis range.
They are actually doing field trips at the moment to see the Greeks in their natural habitat,
Fortunatley for me i have seen this many a time after living for over 10 years where these torts run (well walk) free.

Their mannerisums are completely different to domesticated torts.
Their natural habitat is very dry and dusty and mostly baron land.

These torts along with any Greek here in spain are totally protected by law, All my torts were rescues.
And i have worked closely with an organisation called Santa fa`c that deals in protected species and nursing them back to health and setting them free in a national park.
They know of my torts and have been to see them to make sure the conditions are safe and clean,etc
If i get smaller torts i call them to come and collect it to re introduce to the wild..

 

[Neal]

Oh, P.S. Neal, I promise you, they smooth out with absolutely no change in husbandry whatsoever. I've seen it hundreds of times and personally experienced it with my own torts and with the torts of close friends dozens of times. There IS one possible factor, and that is moving them outside full time, like your leopard that you showed me. Most of the sulcatas start to smooth right around the same time they get too big to be inside all the time. But what about the ones in the Northern climates that ARE indoors most of the year? They still smooth just as much a that same size...

But, not in all cases. There's countless photos out there of big leopards and sulcatas that continue to pyramid. My leopards you are refering to grew up outdoors their whole life, not inside. The only change in husbandry was I kept them more hydrated than the previous owner. Perhaps it all depends on the severity of the pyramiding.

 

[Saloli]

where can i find this "study". i'd like to see it.

 

[Neal]

Look at the link in my first post, towards the bottom. Again, the only reason I brought it up, is because it exists, not that it has any credible info or not.

 

[Saloli]

i feel a bit special now i read that and thought wow (i mean your post)

---

thats odd they show no data to back up thier claims. they also fail to mention that the mediterranean scrub that is the natural vegetation type for the majority of the european tortoises is highly seasonal most rain falls in winter. the area they did their study in is drier then average for the area.

 

[Neal]

Neal, I like the way your mind works. I've been churning this stuff over just like you are now for 20 years. It never gets better and each answer brings 10 new questions... Enjoy!

Maybe I haven't explained myself clearly enough...I'm a numbers guy not a words guy lol. I'm not offended at all so don't take this wrong, but this comment seems a little belittling to the main point I'm trying to get across.

I'm not ignorant or unlearned when it comes to pyramiding, I know I'm not late to "the party", I just want to make sure I'm at the right place you know what I mean? You look back at your experience and knowing what you know now you say your tortoises pyramided because they were kept dry. I look back at my experience knowing what I know now and say why did my tortoise grow smooth when they were kept dry? We've had polar opposite experiences and I want to figure out if it was just a fluke or if there is something there...

 

[John]

Neal, I like the way your mind works. I've been churning this stuff over just like you are now for 20 years. It never gets better and each answer brings 10 new questions... Enjoy!

Maybe I haven't explained myself clearly enough...I'm a numbers guy not a words guy lol. I'm not offended at all so don't take this wrong, but this comment seems a little belittling to the main point I'm trying to get across.

I'm not ignorant or unlearned when it comes to pyramiding, I know I'm not late to "the party", I just want to make sure I'm at the right place you know what I mean? You look back at your experience and knowing what you know now you say your tortoises pyramided because they were kept dry. I look back at my experience knowing what I know now and say why did my tortoise grow smooth when they were kept dry? We've had polar opposite experiences and I want to figure out if it was just a fluke or if there is something there...

neal you are not alone,i know you are familiar with the black leo i have that was pyramided when i got it,i would not call my climtes dry but they are certainly not swamp either,any way he has begun too smooth out considerably.

 

[stells]

I agree Neal... i have grown very smooth tortoises in dry conditons... mine are tabled all winter... and sometimes some of the summer too... i never spray them or the substrate... so as you can imagin the substrate is very dry... mine are soaked regularly... the greens i feed are also given wet after washing... and they do have a water bowl in the enclosure... seems to be enough for my tortoises to grow smooth... IMO internal hydration is more important then external... get it right and you will get your rewards... along with a good diet... get it wrong... and you have to rethink and try something different... as stated this is just my opinion... i don't believe in trying to push my husbandry methods onto others...

My Indian Stars are the only species of mine that i have a humid hide in with... they are growing nice... but also have a dry area in the enclosure to offer some choice... so i could not say the nice growth is down to the humid hide... as i haven't tried growing them without one... they are though soaked often and can always be seen drinking in their enclosure...

 

[onarock]

Neal

Kelly, I could just squeeze you girl. . Nice post.

I can only speak of my own experience. I have shown pictures of and talked about the tall grass in my hatchling enclosures and the extremely tall grass in my yard. My tortoises love it, especially the hatchlings. I stated before that on occasion I have to go in that extremely tall grass to get stuff like footballs, frisbies and other kids toys. I can say that it is extremely humid in that grass. You take 5 steps in there and you are sweating. I think that tortoises need both hydration and humidity. It would make sence to me that hydration would play a larger part. Just my opinion