Hydration Vs. Humidity (Adults Only)

[Neal]

(This is primarily meant as a debate discussion, not as suggested husbandry. Please only respond if you care to actually make a point, saying something like "I'm sick of this debate", is wasting my time and your time. If your'e not interested, don't continue reading this)

So, I'm a bit torn between the humidity and dry thing.

I got started in tortoises in the early to mid 2000's, when the whole concept of tortoises needing humidity wasn't even a whisper. Back in my box turtle days, my vet had a large stone about the size of a softball that he removed from a leopard tortoise about 11 inches long. When I got into tortoises he suggested that I keep them well hydrated to avoid stones building up like the one he had. So, being new in the hobby that's what stuck out to me as a big concern, so I was determined to not let that happen.

My regimen was to soak them frequently (my actual goal was every other day). What ended up actually happening was sporadic at best. Sometimes I would be right on every other day, sometimes I would go nearly a week. The point here is that I soaked mine more than what was recommended in books or web sites at the time.

I raised them for the most part outdoors in the dry dusty Arizona dirt. No humid hides, and nothing that would increase the humidity at all. During this time I had two leopards, two sulcatas, and one indian star. The leopards and sulcatas I traded years ago, the star I still have. Here are a few pictures I just took.

Here are the two sulcatas I raised to about 6 inches.

This one I purchased when he was a bit bigger and was already pyramided a bit. You can see clearly where the pyramiding starts and the smooth shell begins.

They're wet in the pictures after being soaked, but I assure you, they were raised as dry as can be.

Relatively smooth for growing up on dry dirt. Even my adults. When I got them they were and still are, obviously, pyramided. Even though they are over 12 years old they are still growing about an inch a year. Here's a picture of one of my male leopards. You can see where the new growth is coming in and how smooth it is compared to the older parts of the scutes.

What's the point? There is overwhelming information out there now a days about how essential humidity is. I can't seem to completely commit myself to this because of my experience I've detailed above and because right now I have a group of young tortoises that I am raising dry with the exact same results as the ones I am keeping wet. I don't mean to suggest that it's not, only that I'm not certain enough that it is to go out and tell the world to keep their enclosures humid. Hence the title (adults only), if you're a newbie, don't look for suggestions here please.

Further more, I argue, when are baby tortoises exposed to high amounts of humidity? The study done here: http://www.tortoisetrust.org/articles/pyramiding.html is the only piece of information I can find anywhere of actual levels of humidity in the wild. It suggests that they are only exposed to high levels of humidity after rainfall. Keep in mind the credibility of the study is not being questioned, only that it represents an actual study and actual statistics from where tortoises live naturally. We know even from fife's leopard book that baby tortoises aren't ALWAYS hiding in grass or in burrows (pg 13 of the book).

Sorry to be so long, I frickin hate long posts, but there's what I think. I don't know what I expect to come of this, knowing the mindset of the majority of this forum I expect to be right where I am now. But, the question is brought up frequently of showing a tortoise that was raised dry. I have done just that, yeah, only a handful of tortoise which should not and is not meant to convince anyone, only to share what I have experienced.

 

[zzzdanz]

I'm a big believer in keeping them hydrated.Everyone gets a good soak a cpl. times a week.I never was sold on the humidity debate.

 

[ALDABRAMAN]

I will share with all one of my struggles to this day. I have a good friend that purchased two young imported aldabras in the early 80's that were about 6". He kept them close to where I am located and had a pen about 40'x50'. He fed them tons of food, misc. greens, "fruit", & "vegtables". He would pick up from publix large trash cans full of this stuff, food. Both aldabras would eat like pigs and they grew very fast, and got large quick. They were both easy over 200 pounds within 20 years of feeding them like this. Remember, they are located in Florida with good natural humidity and pure sunshine from day one. They had a water pond and were well hydrated. Both, yes both, were highly pyramided! I to this day feel that the pryamiding was a direct result of the diet. I will also share another eye witness testimonial. Another friend has two of our hatchlings from 2001. They are both kept close to our location in Florida and have a beautiful large pen that I helped him create and build. Both have been kept in the pure sunshine and allowed to browse on all natural vegitation with nothing else provided except cactus. They are both perfect smooth, no pryamiding at all. They are about 80 pounds and very strong. Both set of aldabras are kept within the same county in Florida, two are fed "grocery food" and two are fed all natural at will with no variances. Two are pryamided and two are not. The only other variable is the age differences. Once again, I struggle with a food source not at least being part of the problem with pyramiding, based on these two set of circumstances I have witnessed. Not to stir the pot, this testimonial is factual that I have witnessed over the past many years.
I will add that our hatchlings have never shown signs of pryamiding. We do soak them daily and they are kept outside in natural conditions. Our holdback, various years old have all grown very smooth, no pryamiding and are in the natural sunshine and allowed to browse on natural vegitation.
All experiences and thoughts are good and should be shared for the betterment of the tortoise community. I value this forum and all that participate!

 

[Yvonne G]

I think there are too many variables to have a one-size-fits-all aspect to tortoise keeping. The folks in dry old Arizona seem to be able to raise smooth tortoises in dry conditions, that seems opposite to what we're learning now about humidity. I raised a leopard baby and three yellowfoot babies dry and they're pretty badly pyramided. Fed my aldabrans grocery store greens plus good grazing and they're pyramided. I'm trying the humid hide with my new leopard babies, but to tell the truth, I think where you live has more to do with it than we realize.

 

[Neal]

Good point Yvonne. If humidity was the be all end all, why are tortoises pyramiding at all in high humid places like Hawaii or Florida. I'd like to see anyone else that has raised smooth tortoises in other ways to post there experiences here.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

I don't know how to move the pictures from this thread over here but there are 3 pictures of Bob over 10 yr I think. I think I am pretty much a hydration person. I keep a moist substrate but I don't mist at all. I pour water over the substrate and stir it around. I do that with desert tortoises and Sulcata. I keep my box turtles on a moist substrate and they are smooth but I just took in a bumpy box turtle that was kept on rabbit pellets. I preach that there are 4 things needed to prevent pyramiding...about 80% humidity, a good and varied diet, lost of exercise and strong UVB use those in any order. I talk about keeping 80% humidity but to me that means a moist substrate in a closed tank. I cover the top of whatever container and keep a moist substrate. I soak my babies daily faithfully but I don't think Bob has taken a drink since last summer. That is something I am dealing with right now. If you look at the 3 pictures of Bob taken over the last 5 years or so you can see that his pyramiding is less and less and until this year he drank pretty good. So he is my only pyramided animal and his is less and less and it's due to hydration rather then humidity. Altho we do live in Oregon where the ambient humidity as I type this is 82% with periods of rain. But I seriously doubt if the interior of Bob's shed is 82% humidity. The temp inside his shed is 90 degrees....The last picture was taken 2 years ago, Bob is now 13...and his pyramiding is less again


http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-pyramiding--13106#axzz1Gh2WeA00

I hope this makes sense...

 

[Neal]

I agree with those points Maggie except for the humidity being necessary. Again, based on my experience, the humidity variable can be thrown out...it's hydration that's the key.

Well, there doesn't seem to be much interest here, thanks for humoring me guys.

 

[GBtortoises]

I've always looked at "humidity" in relation to tortoise keeping as three seperate elements:

1) Hydration-the tortoise being able to drink as when and as much as it wants to. It's been accepted that well hydrated tortoises expel wastes more often and are generally with less health concerns. Absolutely necessary.
2) Humidity-ambient air humidity within the tortoises environment. I think this the lesser important of the three elements simply because it's been proven time and time again that several species of Mediterranean and African species inhabit environments that are actually quite dry when it comes to ambient humidity. But most, if not all species that live in those conditions seek cooler, more humid resting areas under bushes and in burrows to escape the dryness (and heat) when they need to. Some North African species actually do better in captivity when kept in dry conditions but with a higher ambient humidity.
3) Moisture-how damp the substrate and or hiding areas are. I think this is as important as hydration, primarily at the early stages of growth. It seems to be less important for middle aged and mature adults. Although it is probably beneficial to them just the same.

Many people nowadays have all but disregarded diet content and husbandry methods as having anything to do with pyramding. I have to disagree with them. But that's another post topic altogether!

 

[ALDABRAMAN]

I've always looked at "humidity" in relation to tortoise keeping as three seperate elements:

1) Hydration-the tortoise being able to drink as when and as much as it wants to. It's been accepted that well hydrated tortoises expel wastes more often and are generally with less health concerns. Absolutely necessary.
2) Humidity-ambient air humidity within the tortoises environment. I think this the lesser important of the three elements simply because it's been proven time and time again that several species of Mediterranean and African species inhabit environments that are actually quite dry when it comes to ambient humidity. But most, if not all species that live in those conditions seek cooler, more humid resting areas under bushes and in burrows to escape the dryness (and heat) when they need to. Some North African species actually do better in captivity when kept in dry conditions but with a higher ambient humidity.
3) Moisture-how damp the substrate and or hiding areas are. I think this is as important as hydration, primarily at the early stages of growth. It seems to be less important for middle aged and mature adults. Although it is probably beneficial to them just the same.

Many people nowadays have all but disregarded diet content and husbandry methods as having anything to do with pyramding. I have to disagree with them. But that's another post topic altogether!

I agree with you, I think most just can not provide A Natural diet and they resort to the best they can to provide for the tortoise. You are right that could be another thread, lets see if a moderator starts one with your name, lol.

 

[John]

Neal, outstanding post!this is how the debate should have been started,theory's, tests results and conclusions(which are still opinions,but with some backing).anyway thats all i'm gonna say on this it has worn me out.it is nearly sucking the fun out of keeping for me.take care john

 

[Tom]

Great post Neal and great points. I too have personally witnessed the smooth torts in AZ and seen Neal's herd first hand. I think I can offer some insight in to some of these questions, but I can't universally explain it all for every situation.

First: Neal, I'd love to see you set up a couple of your brand new hatchlings, when you get some more, dry and detail the care and housing for us. Then, at the same time, do a couple of them using the humid methods you describe. I'd love to see how it turns out in AZ with YOU doing it both ways and sharing all the details with us. If you want I'll send you 4 brand new sulcata hatchlings in May to do it with. I'll fund the project too, buying all the lights and equipment. Then you can give back the torts at the end of 6 months or a year or whenever you want so that you are not stuck with a bunch of giants that you don't want or need. In my situation dry has always failed and wet has now, for the last three years always worked. I'd really like to know what the difference is between your "dry" and my "dry".

Now on to try to explain some of this: Let it be known that I don't think I know everything or have all the answers, but I've given all of this A LOT (a TREMENDOUS amount) of thought. I've also been privileged to see all sorts torts all over the world in all sorts of situations. So the following is not scientific fact. Its my opinion based on what I've seen. The first few weeks or months are the most critical for shell development in a young tortoise. If its done right and started right in those first few weeks, what's done after that is far less critical. (Redfoots, MIGHT be an exception to this). So Neal, how old was that great looking star when you got it? If it was already in great shape when you got it, and several weeks old then the AZ dryness probably wouldn't turn it around.

The second big explanation is this: At least for sulcatas, leopards and Russians, ALL of them start to smooth out regardless of hydration, humidity and any change in conditions once they reach a certain size. In the past all sulcatas started out pyramided. Some worse than others, but ALL of them start smoothing out once they hit 20-30 pounds. Mine did, Maggie's Bob did, RV did, and countless other that I have seen. There was NO change in care or the routine for my big males and Delores from the time I got them in 1998 until last year at this time. So for 12 years no change in hydration, feeding, care or routine at all. At around 12-14 inches all the new growth started coming in smooth. Now at around 20-22" all the new growth is still coming in smooth. I saw this pattern on one of Neal's leopards too and Neal told me he thinks it coincides with when that tortoise started living outside. So in Neal's case, it seemed like the sunshine made all the difference. It doesn't prove my point, but it does add pieces to the puzzle.

Now for GB and Greg, diet seems to be a major component for you guys and your species in your environments. From what I've seen with sulcatas and leopards it does not seem to play a significant role. I don't doubt what either of you say, however, its just been less of a factor in my experience with the species I've worked with. In other words, if they are humid, hydrated and warm, it doesn't seem to matter all that much what they are fed. To the point where I've seen them fed a totally inappropriate diet (cat/dog food, lots of fruit, etc.), but still grow smooth and apparently healthy.

Hope this adds something useful to the discussion.

 

[Nay]

So do I keep spraying or not??? You guys are really trying to confuse me!!!
No, really, I love seeing the devotion to these critters. All this means alot, for we are always learning and maybe the next generation will have some much more to offer.
I will say, since having my RedFoots(which I know you said exception) All three are pyramided in various stages prior to me getting them and you an see by the growth, (2 of them close to 8 yrs of more humidity and 1 I got as a baby already pyramided) it has smoothed down quite noticeably.So it has made a difference in their lives.
Also that was Quite an offer there Tom.(To take 4 babies) But I see your point.
Nay

 

[Neal]

So do I keep spraying or not??? You guys are really trying to confuse me!!!

Sorry, I don't know if you're serious or not. If you are, this isn't the thread for that answer. If you're not I say stop spraying and hose them down 10 times a day with the fire hose.

Tom, I'll be taking you up on that offer! I'll respond a bit more when I have more time this evening.

 

[Saloli]

I would think it would be best when possible to mimic the average humidity and temps. in their native habitats. Taking into account both daily, and seasonal variation, for example the wet/dry seasonal variation like that of the Sahal, and India or east Africa.

 

[Neal]

Well, crap, April 15th is only a month away (we get a couple extra days this year actually), and my wife and I are moving to a new house this weekend so any extra time I have won't much here on the forum. GB and Tom and everyone, you brought up some good points I wanted to address...if I have the energy after tax season I'll pick this up again. Tom, If your offer is serious lets talk out the details over the next couple of months.

 

[gummybearpoop]

Neal
I hear you man. I keep my radiateds pretty dry. In the summer, I tend to spray them and soak them more. You have seen photos of mine. We live in the same county where it is hot and dry. The humidity is low, but I still barely spray my tortoises even though temps are nearing 90. Though I can't lie- this year my pens are SUPER! haha

Aldabraman
I have seen the same thing with burmese stars that were raised in florida -warm and humid but they fed a lot of produce and were very pyramided.




My personal opinion is moisture is important but not super wet. I grow my tortoises with seasonal cycles similar to their native environment. Also, I feed produce like as if it were fruit...as a treat. I fed my radiateds blueberries/strawberries for the first time ever- once in 2 years. In the winter, I do feed organic spring mix once or twice a week.
Microclimates are very important. I try to create hide places for baby/young tortoises that almost touch their shell or do touch their shell. I think it adds a sense of security for the tortoise and a better ability to retain moisture.

I don't have the time to spray their enclosure all the time. I would rather spend the time to nurture the garden and pens that pretty much take care of the tortoises.

Cutting this short because gotta get ready to go hiking the next 3 days...

 

[Balboa]

I think we've already discussed all this Neal, but oh well I'll spout off anyways.

In regards to Pyramiding- I'm starting to become convinced its the hydration level of the keratin that is the be all, end all, finite mechanism of pyramiding, and all the hooplah we argue about are just different factors that influence the condition of the keratin. Obviously humid air will be far less likely to dry out keratin, even on a sick tort. A sick (ie malnourished) tort will be inactive and likely engage in behaviors that negatively impact scute hydration (bask too much) etc.

In regards to overall health- hydration matters far more than humidity. Once again humidity helps to maintain hydration, but a completely healthy, active tort will be more likely once again to look after itself and adjust its behaviors accordingly to maintain its hydration even if the conditions are a bit too dry unless totally deprived of suitable means (ie microclimates).

 

[Neal]

I think we've already discussed all this Neal, but oh well I'll spout off anyways.

In regards to Pyramiding- I'm starting to become convinced its the hydration level of the keratin that is the be all, end all, finite mechanism of pyramiding, and all the hooplah we argue about are just different factors that influence the condition of the keratin. Obviously humid air will be far less likely to dry out keratin, even on a sick tort. A sick (ie malnourished) tort will be inactive and likely engage in behaviors that negatively impact scute hydration (bask too much) etc.

In regards to overall health- hydration matters far more than humidity. Once again humidity helps to maintain hydration, but a completely healthy, active tort will be more likely once again to look after itself and adjust its behaviors accordingly to maintain its hydration even if the conditions are a bit too dry unless totally deprived of suitable means (ie microclimates).

I don't remember the discussion, but it probably happened. I hear what you and others are saying about how the humidity keeps the keratin 'pliabl' which creates the smooth growth. Where I'm confused is my experience was different. The tortoises pictured had no extra humidity in their enclosures than what was normal here in AZ. The only moisture they would have contact with is the frequent soakings.

 

[bikerchicspain]

From my point of view i think hydration is more important than humidity in my case as my torts come from very dry arid desserts, where the only humidity they get is if and when it rains and beleive me that in Almeria Spain where the Testudo Greaca Greaca comes from, it does not rain all that much.

At work i have 2 cherry heads and i do have to keep the enclosure humid otherwise the eyes start to water. Plus one spends most of her time in the bathing bowl.

So i am 50/50 depending on the species and its natural enviroment, imho

 

[Neal]

Well, I'm staying at work for lunch so I can respond here.

So Neal, how old was that great looking star when you got it? If it was already in great shape when you got it, and several weeks old then the AZ dryness probably wouldn't turn it around.

It was about 6 months old when I got it. It wasn't terribly bumpy, but very slightly. You can see the very tops of the scutes on a couple are slightly raised. It was more pronounced when it was younger, but as the tortoise keeps growing, it seems to have all but completley smoothed out.

The second big explanation is this: At least for sulcatas, leopards and Russians, ALL of them start to smooth out regardless of hydration, humidity and any change in conditions once they reach a certain size. In the past all sulcatas started out pyramided. Some worse than others, but ALL of them start smoothing out once they hit 20-30 pounds. Mine did, Maggie's Bob did, RV did, and countless other that I have seen. There was NO change in care or the routine for my big males and Delores from the time I got them in 1998 until last year at this time. So for 12 years no change in hydration, feeding, care or routine at all. At around 12-14 inches all the new growth started coming in smooth. Now at around 20-22" all the new growth is still coming in smooth. I saw this pattern on one of Neal's leopards too and Neal told me he thinks it coincides with when that tortoise started living outside. So in Neal's case, it seemed like the sunshine made all the difference. It doesn't prove my point, but it does add pieces to the puzzle.

I have seen this too and thought maybe after a certain size they just smooth out magically. But look at the picture of my sulcata. This one is barely six inches, and you can clearly see where the new growth has come in and how smooth it is. So I am going to have to say the smoothing you're seeing in the bigger tortoises is related to some change in husbandry. I have seen in a lot of cases large tortoises that keep pyramiding. I'm in my office now looking at the month of March TFO calander picture. The sulcata looks about 10 inches or so and the new growth is still coming in pyramided. (This is not meant to be offensive or suggest whoevers tortoise that is is doing things incorrectly, only observation)

Has anyone ever gone out and taken some measurements of burrows or holes to see what the temps and humidity are like? The only information on this I have seen is the TT study done in Spain, and it wasn't very convincing that burrows and clumps of grass are highly humid. I would have to drive about 45 minutes to get somewhere where I could find natural burrows to do this myself, and then I would have to sit around for awhile to get the measurement so I don't have the time right now. But does anyone here live close enough to something like that where they could easily do this? Might be interesting at the least.

My theory is that the tortoises do hide in tight areas, but they are not as highly humid, like as shown in the TT article. When they are active more and eating is likely during the rainy season when food is plentiful. Yeah the humidity might be higher in their tighter spots, but has anyone raised a tortoise that has access to fresh growing food 24/7? They're rarely in their hides and eat day in day out almost. Water is plentiful too during this time, so they're drinking and hydrating themselves more but they spend most of the time out in the open where the humidity is lower. However, it does make sense that they are exposed to high humidity for some periods of time, and I don't suggest or would ever attempt to keep them bone dry every second of their life.

Well, I feel like I'm all over the place. I'm just trying to think this through by typing it out and getting others opinions.

---

Cutting this short because gotta get ready to go hiking the next 3 days...

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