Humidity and Night Temps for Testudo sp.

[Tom]

I've made the decision to start a Russian herd. I just love them. My climate is perfect for them, I already have a perfect spot for them with wire sunk 18" deep in a closed in 20x20' wire cage. I intend to raise around 10 or 20 hatchlings with the eventual goal of breeding way down the road. The last time I raised hatchling Russians I was still using the old dry routine. It was many years ago. Now that I know better it leaves me with a big question: I share the opinion of most people that Testudo sp. benefit from a drop in night temp. I have always done this in the past with russians. However, is this still okay to do in a reasonably humid baby enclosure with humid hide boxes and what not?

I have raised dozens of sulcatas and dozens of leopards with the "wet" routine, and a few others now too. For all of these I have kept them warm at night. I usually keep an ambient of 80 and then just give them a 100 degree basking spot for 12 hours a day. This has worked great for all of my other species, but it seems like 80 round the clock, might be too much for Russians. For sulcatas or leopards letting them get cool with humidity can be disastrous. Anybody have experience with this with Russians. Everything will be temperature controlled when they are babies and living primarily indoors for the first year or so, so it would be easy to put the ambient heat on a timer. I can set it as low as 65-70 with no problem, and then just have it warm up during the day.

I know Russians can tolerate cold nights. So can sulcatas. BUT can Russians tolerate cold nights WITH humidity. Should they? Do they really NEED much of a cool down at night? This whole "raising babies with humidity" thing is still pretty new for a lot of species, and I'd love to hear some thoughts on it from anyone with experience with it.

 

[ascott]

Tom let me start off by saying I do not host Russian tortoise but have noticed in my research (I too think they are fricken sweet ) that they are very much like CDT in that they can and do appreciate a night cool down but that a wet cool down can be disastrous on their health....

It would seem to me that providing a cool dry area along with a warm humid hide would be the way to go....and the overall enclosure humidity should not be constantly high....just seems too dangerous....

They are a species that can endure alot...really cold by digging themselves in deep and remaining in that hibernacle until the ground temps trigger their emergence back to the surface...I mean they do not dig a traditional burrow by the meaning of the word...

Russians have been known to be lost during high volumes of rain along with prolonged cold weather....so, while there is no way for me to give you anything but my opinion and gut feeling...if it were me I would set up an enclosure with a warm humid hide along with a fairly dry over all enclosure....

I personally would not keep a baby CDT in a constant high humidity enclosure as they do require the ability to dry out their shells from time to time as well as their airways....

Others will likely have their opinions as well as their first hand experience that will offer you some good information...

 

[Tom]

Tom let me start off by saying I do not host Russian tortoise but have noticed in my research (I too think they are fricken sweet ) that they are very much like CDT in that they can and do appreciate a night cool down but that a wet cool down can be disastrous on their health....

It would seem to me that providing a cool dry area along with a warm humid hide would be the way to go....and the overall enclosure humidity should not be constantly high....just seems too dangerous....

They are a species that can endure alot...really cold by digging themselves in deep and remaining in that hibernacle until the ground temps trigger their emergence back to the surface...I mean they do not dig a traditional burrow by the meaning of the word...

Russians have been known to be lost during high volumes of rain along with prolonged cold weather....so, while there is no way for me to give you anything but my opinion and gut feeling...if it were me I would set up an enclosure with a warm humid hide along with a fairly dry over all enclosure....

I personally would not keep a baby CDT in a constant high humidity enclosure as they do require the ability to dry out their shells from time to time as well as their airways....

Others will likely have their opinions as well as their first hand experience that will offer you some good information...

Good points. That's why I put this in the debatable section. I love to hear the different thoughts and opinions.

The dry enclosure with the warm humid hide, is what the Fife's and many others recommend for preventing pyramiding in some species. I have found it to be inadequate, at least in my area, and Richard himself still produces some pyramided babies. I bought some pyramided yearlings from him a while back and after several months of the wet routine, I was able to stop it.

About CDTs... I choose not to talk about it much because of the legalities, but I know this species and have more experience with them, than any other species other than sulcatas. I have kept tiny hatchling CDTs in the wet warm routine, basically simulating the AZ desert monsoon season, and they thrived. They did better than any other CDT hatchlings I have ever had. I have been through Mojave in the middle of a summer night where temps were still in the 90's at midnight. I know CDTs can do well with constant warmth for at least part of the year, and I suspect all year, if one chose not to hibernate them. I do like to hibernate mine and I intend to carefully hibernate these Russians too. For their adult lives, these Russians will live outside mostly and spend the winter in a dark temp controlled fridge for hibernation. But as babies, I really want to give them the right environment to grow properly and develop smooth healthy shells. The hatchlings will get my usual routine of daily sunshine for at least an hour or two, gradually increasing the length of time as they get bigger. By a year or two, I intend to leave them out all day and have them sleep inside at night. By 3 or 4, they will likely live outside full time, unless I learn otherwise between now and then.

 

[JoesMum]

I too would be concerned about cold humidity with testudo as they are prone to RI.

I am more concerned that you are considering keeping them together Tom... they fight you know!

 

[Tom]

I too would be concerned about cold humidity with testudo as they are prone to RI.

I am more concerned that you are considering keeping them together Tom... they fight you know!

Hahahahahaha... But I WANT them to get along...

Seriously though... I have a 4x8' indoor enclosure that will be divided into 8- 1x4' sections for the tiny hatchlings and they will be grouped and divided as we go. When we get outdoors, I have 10 different 4x8' pens for them when they are small, and it takes around 5 minutes to set up more of the same if needed. My intention as they get closer to adulthood is to move them into the big 20x20' footer, but divide it up into 4- 10x10' adult enclosures or two 10x20' enclosures depending on how every one gets along. I also have two 28x13' enclosures with the buried wire sitting right next door to this one that are so far totally unused. I've got room to separate and move them around as needed. I read an article that GB posted from some European keepers who advocated keeping the males and females separate for most of the year and introducing them for breeding for a short time each year. I think I will try this and see how I like it. It will be interesting to see two related groups all raised the same way, but housed in these two different ways, to see what differences there are in fertility and breeding.

 

[GBtortoises]

I personally would not keep Russian tortoises, babies or adults, "wet" or in high ambient humid conditions at all. Especially in colder temperatures. Russian tortoises by most peoples accounts, appear to be one of the least prone species to pyramiding. Possibly thee least prone of all species. The most prominent reason for this might possibly be that they are a true burrowing species. While their burrows are most likely cooler and more humid, they have the constant opportunity to be exposed to warmer, drier conditions above ground too. It is a growing belief among many keepers, myself included that they should be kept much more like the American Desert tortoise and less like other Testudo species. In fact their mico climates appear to be more like the Desert tortoise and not even remotely close to that of other northern Testudo species. But even other Testudo species should not be kept wet all the time. I am still a fan of slightly moistened substrate, allowing the area around the basking light to always be drier, humid hides and ambient air humidity withing the 50-65% range. Not dripping wet with constantly high humidity. I have not raised a Russian tortoises from birth to current in those conditions. I simply have not kept any babies of the species to do so yet. But I have raised all species of Hermann's, Ibera & Marginated in those same conditions with absolutely no pyramiding whatsoever.

As far as keeping them together, while male Russians are typically very aggressive, I've never found it to be a problem as long as the enclosure they were in was large enough with enough hiding areas.

 

[NudistApple]

I do not know much about Russian Tortoises (or really even torts in general, yet), but assuming that keeping them hot & humid during the day is the right way to go, I can think of somewhat of a compromise? There are ways to keep daytime ambient humidity high, without straight up saturating soil (I seem to remember RF owners mentioning this in other threads) to prevent shell rot, and it seems like that would be a good starting point.

What I am thinking is like in the case of Crested Geckos. Those little guys require high, but variable humidity ~50-80% throughout the day. However, they also benefit from a drop in night temperatures as well (in fact it rarely gets very hot in New Caledonia, period), and of course high humidity & low temperatures are RI city. What crested gecko keepers do, is raise the humidity to the highest possible point at the warmest time of the day, and then allow it to naturally degrade through the rest of the day and evening.

It seems to me that would be a fairly logical way of doing things (provided you can figure out a way of emulating it in the outdoor enclosure), and since you will always have a humid hide for them out there anyway, there will never a be a point where things are too "dry".

In any event, that's my theory. (-:

 

[Tom]

I personally would not keep Russian tortoises, babies or adults, "wet" or in high ambient humid conditions at all. Especially in colder temperatures. Russian tortoises by most peoples accounts, appear to be one of the least prone species to pyramiding. Possibly thee least prone of all species. The most prominent reason for this might possibly be that they are a true burrowing species. While their burrows are most likely cooler and more humid, they have the constant opportunity to be exposed to warmer, drier conditions above ground too. It is a growing belief among many keepers, myself included that they should be kept much more like the American Desert tortoise and less like other Testudo species. In fact their mico climates appear to be more like the Desert tortoise and not even remotely close to that of other northern Testudo species. But even other Testudo species should not be kept wet all the time. I am still a fan of slightly moistened substrate, allowing the area around the basking light to always be drier, humid hides and ambient air humidity withing the 50-65% range. Not dripping wet with constantly high humidity. I have not raised a Russian tortoises from birth to current in those conditions. I simply have not kept any babies of the species to do so yet. But I have raised all species of Hermann's, Ibera & Marginated in those same conditions with absolutely no pyramiding whatsoever.

As far as keeping them together, while male Russians are typically very aggressive, I've never found it to be a problem as long as the enclosure they were in was large enough with enough hiding areas.

So with humidity in the 50-65% range and slightly damp substrate, how low should I let the night temp drop to? And is and ambient of 75-80 during the day okay, with a 100 degree basking spot?

Most days they will be outside in large planted pens. It is very hot and dry here most of the time, so the simulation of humid burrow and hot dry air will be easy for me to do. Funny you mentioned the CDT, because I have raised them much the same way we are discussing and it worked great. I did keep the CDT hatchlings on damp substrate, but humidity was within the range you mentioned. I also sprayed their shells while indoors. They did get plenty of dry outside sunshine time too, and I think this really makes a difference for some species.

And for the record, it is very easy to pyramid Russians, CDTs and any other Testudo here. I think this just means that husbandry adjustments are in order depending on the environment one lives in...

 

[Kristina]

I don't know much about raising Russian hatchlings, but as far as my adults/subadults, I let them get as low as 40*. I keep mine dry as well. During the summer months, they get the sprinkler once a day, during which time they drink and pee pretty much simultaneously. One thing I noticed is that even though the are hydrated every day, they produce urates EVERY day. I think this is a physiological thing with the entire species.

Inside they have access to water daily and they do drink, but they HATE water with any sort of depth. They like it shallow. An inch or less seems to be ideal. In fact, they are most enthusiastic about drinking from very shallow puddles when the sprinkler is on or when it is raining.

I think your ambient temps sound perfect, and I would even go as low as 90-95 for a basking spot, personally.

This is something I posted in another thread, back in 2010 -

*I posted this on another thread, but I have been meaning to make my own thread about it. Just something I have noticed.

A lot of people say that their Russians dig down and don't seem to move a lot. Quite often it is a new pet, that just hasn't acclimated, but I also notice that the behavior in question almost always correlates with higher temperatures.

I am starting to believe that most people keep their Russians a bit too warm, much like I believe that many people keep their Sulcatas a bit too warm. By observing both my Russians and my former Sulcatas, I have discovered that the only active basking *I* have ever witnessed took place before 11 AM, which in my area, means before the day hit peak temperatures.

I keep my Russians outside. First thing in the morning, they bask for about an hour, from 9-10 am. They rarely come out of their burrows before 9 AM. Then they graze for about an hour. Once temps hit about 80* F, they all go back to the shade, and remain there the majority of the day. In the afternoon, when it starts to cool down, and the sun drops in the sky a bit, they come out and graze for another hour or two. By 6-7 PM, they are starting to tuck themselves in for the night, even though it doesn't get dark until 10.

My point here is that if it is TOO warm in the overall enclosure, it may make them want to hide more. Mine seem the most active at 65*-79* F, and once it hits 80*, they go into hiding from the sun. I even experimented with this, and put them in a small enclosure in the full sun, with just a tiny shade area created by a piece of plywood. They all crowded underneath it, even though all four barely fit.

It makes COMPLETE sense to me. Russians and Sulcatas are both burrowers. So, in the hot hot hottest part of the day, when temps really ARE 100*F+, are they sitting out in the desert sun? I highly doubt it. They are in their burrows, which probably never top 80*F, conserving moisture.

Just something to think about when setting up your enclosure. A hot spot of 90*F is probably plenty adequate.

Another observation is that while indoors, when they don't actually graze, they will eat their food, bask for an hour or so, and then head for their burrows. Their indoor table has the same ambient temp as my bedroom, which is 66-70*. Basking areas are 90-95. And my adults/subadults have beautiful new growth, without the gapping that you often see with these guys in captivity.

 

[Yvonne G]

And, Tom...don't forget the sub species thing. I know quite a few folks don't believe there are different sub species of Russian tortoise, but if they're proven wrong down the road, it would be nice if you had a head start on keeping the strains pure. One of the people who knows his stuff on the sub species is egyptiandan. He's not here anymore, but you can always catch him on shelled warriors.

 

[Neltharion]

By observing both my Russians and my former Sulcatas, I have discovered that the only active basking *I* have ever witnessed took place before 11 AM, which in my area, means before the day hit peak temperatures.

I keep my Russians outside. First thing in the morning, they bask for about an hour, from 9-10 am. They rarely come out of their burrows before 9 AM. Then they graze for about an hour. Once temps hit about 80* F, they all go back to the shade, and remain there the majority of the day. In the afternoon, when it starts to cool down, and the sun drops in the sky a bit, they come out and graze for another hour or two. By 6-7 PM, they are starting to tuck themselves in for the night, even though it doesn't get dark until 10.

I've made similar observations. With the 100F Summers that I get here, the Russians are out for a few hours early morning. They go back into their hides for the rest of the day and come back out early evening for another few hours to eat and enjoy getting sprayed with water. My outdoor enclosure is pretty much bone dry most of the time. Aside from spraying it once a day with a hose, the heat dries it out fairly quickly. The only humidity that they really get is digging themselves down inside their hides.