How we breed tortoises here at the AZ Tortoise Compound

Az tortoise compound

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Figured we should get a thread going about tortoise breeding here at the Compound. This thread will be picture heavy and informational to showcase our breeding efforts as well as to help others in theirs. Please keep in mind that these observations, statistics, and results are from our facility which may have regional temperature differences, different means of care/setup and different individual tortoise personalities or localities. Questions and comments are more then welcome on this thread as we continue to update it with all the different species we work with. Arizona Tortoise Compound maintains adult groups of over 30+ different sub species/ species of tortoises. Few turtles species as well.

Some statistics at the Compound...

Quickest artificial incubation hatch -
Eastern Hermann's Tortoise (T. h. boettgeri) - 35 days/ 85-87 degrees

Longest artificial incubation hatch -
South African Leopard Tortoise ( Pardalis Pardalis) - 464 days/ diapause 65/66 degrees, incubation 85-87 degrees

Species with the high successful hatch average per clutch -
Russian Tortoises /90%

Species with the lowest successful hatch average per clutch -
Redfoot Tortoises/40%

Largest clutch size -
Sulcata Tortoise - 58 eggs

Smallest clutch size - This could be do to the individual species or young females laying for the first time. Also some second clutches from different species for the season can be lower in numbers then the first.
Russians, Forstens, Spiders, Pancakes and Stars- 1 eggs





Sulcata Tortoises are the most produced tortoise species here at the Compound.
This is due to how many individual females we have in the breeding group as well as the large clutch sizes. In Arizona, Sulcata tortoises are able to lay clutches any month of the year. On average our females lay 3 times a year with 25 eggs in a clutch. Their eggs are the size of a golf ball, if hatched naturally the main hatch happens in September, no matter if the eggs were laid in January or April. Artificial incubation typically takes an average of 100 days. A.T.C. does both methods of hatching, in effort to have hatchlings available year round. This also helps with other nesting females not destroying previously laid clutches since they all like to nest in the same area. The smallest plastron measurement of a female including the gular scute to lay a clutch was a 17 inch female. Our observations with the female Sulcata Tortoise egg productivity is young female between 18-20 inches are seemingly more prolific then larger more mature females between 22-25 inches. The catch is, the more mature females have larger clutch sizes, high fertility and better hatch success rate. Further more, the more mature the female the quicker the clutches are laid and no "test" holes are dug. Trends show at our location females that are over 35+ years old start to slow down in production by smaller numbers of clutches per year. The largest female Sulcata to be at the Compound was 28 inches and documented to be fifty to Sixty years old. When Sulcata Tortoises start digging nest sites , they will dig out a depression with their front legs, then turn around and start digging the egg chamber with the hind legs. They are very careful like all other tortoise species to pack in the eggs softly and then pack in the dirt. Once finished a nest site is very easy to be over looked.


The largest male Sulcata at our facility is 36 inches. (Plastron Measurement) Although the largest tortoise he is the most docile and also the least to care about breeding. Males Sulcata Tortoises ranging from 20-25 inches are the most relentless when it comes to mating. This is also true as to them trying to exert there dominance towards other males. In our herd environment there is a hierarchy that gets established. The larger the tortoise and the heavier they are makes them the winner in every battle. Once males size up each other by pushing and shoving, the larger male becomes the victor. When males are the same size and weight, this is when they tend to not stop fighting until one or the other is hurt. We try to make sure the males in our group are a few inches different in size. This has helped a lot with being able to have multiple males in our group.


Sulcata Hatchlings generally have the same look and appearance as other hatchlings in the same clutch. Naturally hatched hatchlings are 100% more stout then artificially hatched hatchlings. Meaning Sulcatas that emerge from the ground already have the yolk sacs absorbed, as where hatchlings from the incubator will have a large yolk sac still present and takes a few days if not a week to heal. Also noticed ground hatched specimens are over all stronger, more alert, and active. Natural hatching for our Sulcatas occurs with the monsoon rains in late summer early fall. Sulcatas hatch from their shells and sit in the egg chamber until the rains come, then they all emerge at once. Watering the nesting sites can also cause them to emerge. Some years if the rains are late, and the temperatures are too high, some clutches can cook to death underground while they are waiting to emerge. We create a shade for the nesting sites and try to keep the area some what hydrated by watering. Dry nest sites that were not shaded or kept some what moist produces a higher ratio of naturally mis-scuted animals.


A.T.C. does maintain a group of Ivory Sulcatas, 100% Hets and a few that are 66% possible Het. This January was the first clutch laid of a possible Het Ivory, maybe in a couple months we will be able to update the thread with Ivory Sulcata hatchling photos and info. We are artificially incubating these to try to ensure a successful hatch.


Leopard Tortoises are the second highest produced species here at the Compound.
By maintaining a large group of both Pardalis Babcocki and Pardalis Pardalis has let us compare the differences in clutch sizes, incubation duration/temperatures as well as the diapause method. Needed to be stated our Babcocki groups is more mature then the Pardalis group. The largest Babcocki Leopard tortoise at our facility is 19 inches straight plastron measurement and the largest pardalis in our group is 16 inches. The Pardalis Pardalis Leopard tortoises are half the age of the Babcocki's and originally produced by the founder of the G.P.P. in the states - (Randy Limburg) as hatchlings over a decade ago. Our Babcocki's on average lay three clutches with 10-12 eggs during the months of September - January. These clutches hatch out during Spring. Some random clutches are found throughout the year making the number of clutches per female go above the average, but the main lay happens during these months. Pardalis Pardalis follow suit in laying during the same months as the Babcocki's but the Pardalis clutch sizes seem to be smaller in the number of eggs on average (6-10 eggs per cluch) and tend to lay more clutches per year. Naturally hatched Pardalis Pardalis will hatch out the following year with a few months added making the average duration 15 months. Both localities start and finish their nest sites with the hind legs only. Pardalis Pardalis are known for the double dot marking on the carapace of the shell and the Pardalis Babcocki are known for only having single dots. With producing a large number of hatchlings each year here at the compound, some Pardalis hatch with single dots and some Babcocki hatch out with double dots. (So when purchasing Pardalis Pardalis Leopard Tortoises make sure you buy from a reputable breeder that knows the true local of the tortoises. Some buyers could be fooled by purchasing off of the dot pattern only. Speckling on the skin is also a trait that can help tell if they are Pardalis Pardalis.) On average our Babcocki eggs take 150 days to hatch. Both natural and artificial incubation is done, with artificial temperatures between 85-87 degrees. We focused more on the temperatures and incubation time for the Pardalis since the artificial incubation process is fairly unknown. After a Pardalis clutch is laid, the eggs are washed and placed in a container with moist vermiculite as the substrate. Eggs are left at room temperature in a dark place for 2 weeks, from there the container of eggs are placed in a refrigerator at 60-66 degrees for 10-12 weeks. The eggs are pulled out and tempered at room temperature again for 1-2 weeks , then placed in the incubator at 85-87 degrees until they hatch. Incubation times have ranged from 6- 11 months. Further efforts of artificial incubation with the Pardalis Pardalis will lead us to a more exact method. Egg sizes as well as hatchling sizes are very close in size in both localities. The smallest Pardalis Pardalis to lay a clutch here at the compound was 13 inches, with the first clutch being infertile.
Pardalis Babcocki's




Pardalis Pardalis


At A.T.C 100% Het for Sunset Hypo Leopard Tortoises are also maintained. At the present time we are currently producing 66% possible het hatchlings with a Het male and a normal female. Our female Het is still too young to breed. We are still on the fence about the Pink and Black Sunset Hypo Leopard Tortoises being a true genetic strain or not. But a few more years, we all will find out hopefully...

more to come...
 

bouaboua

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RE: Arizona Tortoise Compound

Nice. Nice, NICE! ! ! ! ! ! !

Thank you so much for sharing! ! ! ! !
 

motero

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RE: Arizona Tortoise Compound

This is great, I love the location specific info. Great looking torts too.
 

DeanS

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RE: Arizona Tortoise Compound

Nice show Andy! Great stock...and even greater results. Really curious to see how your ivory project turns out!
 

Tom

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RE: Arizona Tortoise Compound

Az tortoise compound said:
Sulcata Hatchlings generally have the same look and appearance as other hatchlings in the same clutch. Naturally hatched hatchlings are 100% more stout then artificially hatched hatchlings. Meaning Sulcatas that emerge from the ground already have the yolk sacs absorbed, as where hatchlings from the incubator will have a large yolk sac still present and takes a few days if not a week to heal. Also noticed ground hatched specimens are over all stronger, more alert, and active.


This is a great post. After all these years, I finally feel like I know a little something more about you guys.

I found your observations quoted above very interesting. I have ground hatched many at my place too. Your observations of heat and dry soil match mine exactly, but our observations of the hatchlings are different. My ground hatched ones are more wary, but I have found my artificially hatched babies to be stronger, more vigorous and better growers. Obviously not counting that first week in the brooder box. Activity levels and appetite have been similar for me. Its not that the ground hatched ones aren't also healthy and fine, but given a choice of which one I would prefer to send out or keep myself, I'd choose the indoor hatched ones. I wonder what the difference is. Our climates are pretty similar, but you have hotter nights in summer and are often just a little hotter than here. Your winters are similar to ours, but again, generally warmer nights. You guys warm up a little sooner in spring too, but otherwise pretty close. Maybe something in our early care routine could account for the difference?

I loved the info on the leopards too. Looking forward to whatever you learn about incubation techniques for the South Africans. I'm still a few years away, but I'll be there soon enough. I tried something with my sulcatas last year that I learned from Neal, and I'm going to try whenever my Gpp start laying eggs. Curious about your thoughts on it. Basically, Neal left all his leopard eggs in the ground, regardless of when they were laid, and then dug them all up and put them in the incubator once it got really hot in June. His hatch rates skyrocketed. I figured (possibly incorrectly) he might have some Gpp genetics mixed in to his herd somewhere, but there is no way to verify or deny that. I thought that maybe the cooler weather for eggs laid early in the year gave them sort of an informal diapuase. I tried this with some sulcata eggs, not thinking it would do much since sulcatas don't need a diapause, and it never really gets cool over there, but my hatch rates went from my normal 60-80% to almost 100% for every clutch. I also got bigger, more stout hatchlings, as if they were already head started a couple of weeks.

Good luck with the Ivories. Please let us know how that one turns out.
 

diamondbp

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RE: Arizona Tortoise Compound

Thanks for taking the time to make this thread Andy. As a frequent customer of yours it's always nice to see a glimpse of where my tortoises come from. I look forward to additional information and photos of the legendary ATC lol ;)


BTW I noticed one of my pardalis I got from you in the baby group shot. lol Yes I analyze pictures that much
 

TortsNTurtles

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Arizona Tortoise Compound

Thanks for sharing I enjoyed getting a glimpse of the compound.
 

cdmay

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RE: Arizona Tortoise Compound

Neat stuff Andy. Love the G.p.p.
Do you work with any of the Greek tortoises? I got eggs from mine here in Florida but they were never fertile. Yet my hermanni hatched at nearly 100%.
 

Levi the Leopard

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Thank you for sharing this. I found it very interesting.
Once males size up each other by pushing and shoving, the larger male becomes the victor. When males are the same size and weight, this is when they tend to not stop fighting until one or the other is hurt. We try to make sure the males in our group are a few inches different in size. This has helped a lot with being able to have multiple males in our group.


Overall this was a great read. I look forward to more. Thank you :D
 

Az tortoise compound

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Pardalis Pardalis Leopard Hatchling.

Pardalis Babcocki Leopard Hatchling.

Sulcata females nesting...

....like many other tortoise species they do lay clutches at the entrance of their burrows.

Clutch of Sulcata Eggs.

Large males have a easier time holding down the females during mating. The females will try to move side to side to knock off the male if they are not interested. (Notice the drag marks in the ground behind the male)

Since male Leopard Tortoises are smaller then the females, we keep multiple males in our herds to try to ensure fertility in the females.




Thank you everyone for the kind words..

Cdmay, we do keep a few different sub species of Greek Tortoises and they do very well here in AZ. Greek info will also be added to this thread.

Tom, as to the Sulcata hatchlings with the time, care and detail you put into you hatchlings I can totally understand how your artificially hatched babies could be healthy in your opinion then naturally hatched ones. You have had eyes on them since day one and and have controlled every aspect of how they are coming along during the "brooder duration". Also you have tried many different methods and have came up with the perfect one for your situation, leaving you confident in your artificially hatched hatchlings. So very understandable that we have different opinions and or out comes.

Sulcata hatchlings collected from the enclosure that hatched naturally are are ready for new homes that day. Straight out of the ground, the hatchlings a lot of the time are found eating, sitting in water puddles or hiding in the smallest crevice they can squeeze into. If presented with food they will take to it right away. Before the hatchlings emerge from the ground, they have been hatched out for days if not sometimes weeks. They will hangout in the egg chamber until they are ready to come out, during this time in the chamber the egg sacs get absorbed and the humidity levels are high allowing the tortoises to completely escape the inner membrane of the egg and the scutes can start fusing together correctly. With the rains the hatchlings emerge so continued moisture and hydration happens. The distance they are found from the nest site can be quite far away, letting them get exercise and proving they are strong. Any hatchlings that were weak normally do not make it all the way out of the shell and or egg chamber, so the ones that do hatch are stout. We firmly believe fresh air and sunlight is the best things for tortoises, so if they are able to have that from day one of emerging we would prefer it.

Sulcata hatchlings that hatch from the incubator emerge from the shell and still have a yolk sac present. They are left in the incubator until the sac is fully absorbed. This normally takes on average a week. Sometimes while the eggs sac is still present we will soak them for 5-10 mins and place them back into the incubator to stay the correct temperature while the sac is absorbing. Once absorption is complete we will again soak the hatchlings and place them into an enclosure, food is offered right away and not all of them starting eating right away. Some will, some dont. Before hatchlings can be shipped out we make sure they are eating and healthy. So more time is needed for artificial hatchings. Also like most others, if we see an egg pipped in the incubator, we might help the hatchling out of the shell a little bit. We try not to do this, reason being we might be helping a weak hatchling emerge that naturally would not be able to. In turn, this is helping along an already weak animal that might have a weak immune system, lack of strength or over all poor health. We are very blessed by being able to offer and let go of our hatchlings at a fast pace. Typically we do not have the hatchlings for longer then a month, but have a constant flow of them being produced so hatchling care is year round at the Compound. We do hold back some different species of hatchling and raise up for our personal stock .


Tom, as to the Leopards... I have also dug up clutches like Neal has and finished hatching them in the incubator. I have done this with Sri Lankan Stars, Sulcatas, Babcockis and Pardalis Pardalis. I didnt document what times of the year I did this and also didnt see or make me think that a higher hatch out was happening because of it. True ground temps are unknown in the egg chambers and the females mature more each year. With these factors I could not say. I can say that our females mature with every passing year and the clutches are over all more successful then the last. ( Tom,I do have a friend that is a firm believer that temperature fluctuation during the incubation process creates a more successful hatch, he has been working on it for awhile and hopefully I can get you that info down the road if you would like.)
 

Benjamin

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Great thread! Could you post some pictures of your incubators please? Perhaps discuss your methods of artificial incubation as well?
 

Tom

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Great info Andy. Thank you. I would love to hear any info on incubation from you or your friend. This is really a great thread, and I'm sure we'd all love to see more. I know I would.

Interesting that your sulcatas lay near the burrow entrance. Mine never did that. They all seemed to want to get as far away from there as possible. Many times when I'd see them pacing the wall and I knew another clutch was do, I'd put them over the wall and they would walk to the farthest corner of the 5 acre ranch and lay way down there. I know of just one instance of a CDT doing laying near the burrow entrance, but I have not seen it any other time with any other species. How frequently does this happen there?
 

DeanS

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Az tortoise compound said:
The largest male Sulcata at our facility is 36 inches. (Plastron Measurement) Although the largest tortoise he is the most docile and also the least to care about breeding. Males Sulcata Tortoises ranging from 20-25 inches are the most relentless when it comes to mating. This is also true as to them trying to exert there dominance towards other males. In our herd environment there is a hierarchy that gets established. The larger the tortoise and the heavier they are makes them the winner in every battle. Once males size up each other by pushing and shoving, the larger male becomes the victor. When males are the same size and weight, this is when they tend to not stop fighting until one or the other is hurt. We try to make sure the males in our group are a few inches different in size. This has helped a lot with being able to have multiple males in our group.


If you ever decide to part with him...I'd love first crack at him!:D
 

skottip

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I wish I had the record keeping you do. lol Very impressive! I too am on the fence regarding the "Sunset Hypos"
Have they produced any F-2's yet?
 

Tim/Robin

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skottip said:
I wish I had the record keeping you do. lol Very impressive!

Impossible to keep good records with wild tortoises roaming your backyard Scott!! :D:p
 

Tropical Torts

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Andrew this is an awesome thread. I have to agree on the lowest hatch rate per clutch with redfoots. Our average is close to 48%.
 

Az tortoise compound

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Dean, you got it. I do offer 30 inch males from time to time. I know of two other males larger then my 36 inch. Ive been trying to aquire them, if that happens I will let go of the 36 incher.

John, glad to hear we are not the only ones with this problem. Our adult Redfoots are huge, males are constantly mating, setup and diet is perfect in the enclosure but fertility is so low. Our herd of 20 Redfoots can crush as much food as our Sulcatas and are pretty costly to maintain with such low reproduction.

Scott, we have been producing 66% possible het for Sunset with a 100% het male and a normal Pardalis Pardalis female. (they are actually 50% hets do to a het breeding a normal, a need to amend this on my classified ads) This is as far as we have gotten so far. (Talking about being on the fence, there might be big problems...) http://www.faunaclassifieds.com/forums/showthread.php?t=460141

Team Gomberg, you might also find interesting that some male Sulcatas during battles will try to bite each other. Every tortoise has its own personality and some males are out of control and will continue flipping the other male. Even when a male is upside down, they might get rammed and flip over again and again and again. When introducing new males into the group it can start out rough sometimes but normally ends well with the males mating the females.




Tom, the Sulcata females main nesting sites are away from the burrow but some drop where ever they would like. Ive had two females lay clutches in front of the burrow that I can remember. My Sonoran Desert Tortoises and California Desert Tortoises lay in front of the burrow. Our Texas Tortoises are not proven yet. My Eastern Hermanns do not have a burrow but do lay in front of the entrance to there home as well as inside of it. Ive seen Sri Lankan and Pancakes also lay at the entrance of there home. The Pancake Tortoises do live in a burrow we created for them....





Ben, here are pictures of our incubators. Nothing impressive but very functional. Hovabators are preferred and control the temps and moisture better then our large incubators. Wine chillers are used to cool different tortoise species eggs for diapause.










Our methods of artificial incubation.....

When eggs are collected we will normally but not always wash the eggs in preparation to go into the substrate for the incubators. We also prefer vermiculite, but will use perlite if that is the only thing available. Both work fine, but the perlite is a little too dusty for our liking. Sphagnum Moss is used for our tropical tortoise species' eggs. For our large incubator we use small plastic containers to hold the substrate and eggs. We fill the container 3/4 of the way with substrate, then add water while mixing the substrate so it is heavily soaked, make small divots into the substrate and place the eggs into the depressions. Effort is taken to try to keep the water that's added little above room temp. The top of the eggs will get marked with an X or some type of indication where the top is. This helps to ensure we do not rotate the eggs during the incubation process. Sometimes dates will be written on the eggs or just one egg of the clutch. Also an initial for which species the eggs are will be written on the egg with a charcoal pencil. Once everything is in place we will top off the eggs with more moistened substrate to where only the tip of the egg is showing. If they get completely covered that's okay too. The large incubator has different levels and also different temps. The top shell is the hottest at 87-89 degrees, middle stays around 86-87 and the bottom 85-86. Normally when the eggs are first placed into the incubator, they will be placed at the top. About half way through the process we will lower them a shelf and by the time they start hatching they are on the middle or bottom shelf. The very bottom of the incubator has two large shallow pans to hold water for the humidity. When we first started to hatch out babies, some had mis-scutes and makes for a harder sale. So advice from a friend we start them high then finish them a little cooler. This and keeping the humidity levels up has produced nice shelled tortoises for us. We really do not strive for a certain sex when artificially hatching, just looking for perfect shelled hatchlings. Sometimes we will have to add water into the incubator and the containers to increase the humidity. Again we try to match the water temps with the incubator temps when adding. The plastic containers are staggered to help the air flow in the incubator. A spray bottle is sometimes used to spray the doors down. Temp gun is always on hand. Thermometers are on each level, and a flash light is also close for candling. The hovabators are pretty much the same but we use the whole incubator bottom for the substrate. Again the substrate is heavily moistened, dish of water is added to the corner to help with humidity and these stay a constant temperature around 85-87. Warm summer days, the indoor temps increase and the incubators do also. Same goes for winter, the inside temps will lower so the incubator temps will lower a bit. So at least twice a year we will have to adjust the temps a touch. Normally incubators are checked daily, we are always concerned if everything is going okay in there.







While eggs are cooking in the incubator, we candle them from time to time to see if there is life. This is what we like to see....


This is what we do not like to see....


When we see hatchling start to pip out we will try not to open the doors or the incubator lids for a few days. In the past we would open the doors too often and the inner membrane of the egg would start drying out. If this happens sometimes the hatchlings will get trapped and not make it out of the egg on there own. Hatchlings are left in the incubator on the substrate until their belly buttons are fully healed. Sometimes we might soak the hatchlings in a shallow dish of lukewarm water before their bellies are healed and we do soak them once we take them out of the incubators.



We will be touching on Russian Tortoises (Testudo horsfieldi) next/soon ........
 

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