How to syringe feed?

[tortdad]

Okay baby sully people I need to know how to syringe feed and what to feed, ASAP.

I got a baby 2 weeks ago and she's a super little runt. Her hatch date was about 2 months ago and he egg yolk spot isn't healed closed yet. My kitchen scale doesn't do grams so the best I can tell you is .8 ounces.

Basking spot is 105 with MVB
Che was bumped up from 80 to 85
Humidity is always between 80-90
Closed chamber
Top soil and cypress mulch substrate

Food has been untouched
Grass
Mazuri
Hibiscus flowers and leaves
Mustard green
Red leaf lettuce

Soaks for 30 mins everyday

The other 2 from this bunch seem to be doing fine

She's never sucked up in her shell
I've not seen her eat or poop

Have been doing baby food soaks for a few days now

Today she can't open her eyes at all

I put her in the enclosure and she stays where I put her.

Yesterday her eyes were clear after the soak but today she won't open them.

What am I doing wrong? She was started well and the others are doing well

 

[wellington]

@Yvonne G possibly can help. Just be prepared, some just don't thrive for whatever unknown reason, even though clutch mates do fine. Good luck, hope all turns out well.

 

[tortdad]

Never mind folks. I'm 99.99999999% sure she's dead now. RIP baby storm

I was just told that one of her other clutch mates is headed down the same path while the other is an eating machine and growing well.

Poor baby, I feel so bad and my wife is crying.

 

[wellington]

Oh, I am so sorry. It's never easy. It is one of those things that unfortunatley happens to some for no know reason. Probably nothing you could have done, could have changed the out come.

 

[Tom]

They should still be in a brooder box.

You don't syringe feed baby tortoises.

How did this happen? Why are these babies not in a brooder box still?

 

[Jodie]

So sorry.

 

[Momof4]

So sorry Kevin ((Hugs))

 

[DawnH]

Oh gosh Kevin, I am so sorry. How heartbreaking.

 

[tortdad]

They should still be in a brooder box.

You don't syringe feed baby tortoises.

How did this happen? Why are these babies not in a brooder box still?

How long should they be in the brooder box

 

[Tom]

How long should they be in the brooder box

Until their yolk sac absorbs and the umbilical scar closes up. Usually around 8-10 days.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

So sorry to hear about that.

 

[tortdad]

Until their yolk sac absorbs and the umbilical scar closes up. Usually around 8-10 days.

This one was 8 weeks old and the umbilical scar was still open

 

[tortdad]

Here she was 24 hours prior to death. Eyes nice and bright but only open after a baby food soak.

 

[Yvonne G]

That picture shows a very skinny baby. I'm sorry to say that some of them just don't make it. It's quite normal, although very unwelcome. There's nothing you could have done differently. It is sometimes called "failure to thrive." A thorough necropsy might have shown that all the plumbing inside wasn't in order, or that something wasn't quite right inside. So sorry this happened. You did everything I would have done. Some just can't be saved.

 

[Tom]

Here she was 24 hours prior to death. Eyes nice and bright but only open after a baby food soak.

When they hatch in the wild, they stay underground in the warm humid nest chamber and absorb the yolk sac, eat their eggs shells and mom's poop, and wait for rain to come up. This process can take weeks. When they do come up, yolk sacs are absorbed, umbilical scars are closed, its wet and raining and there are puddles everywhere. Wild hatched babies, or even ground hatched babies here, come up ready to go.

When we take them straight out of the incubator and the umbilical scar is not properly closed up, like on this one in your pic, and put them into a regular enclosure, it allows all sorts of mayhem to invade their bodies. They aren't ready for that environment yet.

Here is my system. With this system I get 100% survival rates and nothing but thriving growing babies. Not most of the time. ALL of the time.
1. Upon pipping I add water to the media.
2. As soon as they leave their shell under their own power, I put them into a soaking container while I prepare a plastic shoe box lined with damp paper towels and I put their rinsed egg shell and some greens in there. I rinse them off and put them into their "brooder boxes" after their first soak. Many of them drink in this first soak. I put no more than 6 babies to a shoe box.
3. I put the lid on the shoe box and I put it either back in the incubator or in a warm closed chamber. After about 8-10 days they are eating good, and their yolk sacs are completely gone and the umbilical scar all closed up. They get a soak and a fresh clean box with new towels on the bottom and fresh greens every day during this process. This process simulates the time they would spend in their nest chamber still underground. When this process is done, they are ready for their first enclosure.

I have been told by many a breeder that this process is "too much work". No kidding. They really say that. Then their customers come to me for help in trying to save their dying baby. Happens all the time. And then experienced tortoise people like Yvonne, who I love admire and respect, come along and say things like "some of them just aren't meant to survive". I must be the luckiest guy on the planet since apparently every single one of the hundreds of leopards, CDTs and sulcatas that I have hatched out seem to be "meant to survive". ALL of them. Not most. Not a lot. 100% of them. This is not chance or some lucky accident. It is a proven method for a healthy start to a long life.

Even with this immediate removal from the incubation media, I still see some flecks of vermiculite when they have their first poop in about 2 weeks time. They are only on that incubation media for a few hours after hatching at most. Imagine how much media they would eat if left in there for a week with no other food. I have necropsied babies started by other breeders and found their intestinal tracts lined with incubation media. These babies were failing to thrive while their siblings were fine. Had I not known better... Had I not paid $500 each for necropsy... I might have said something like: "Well. Some babies just aren't meant to survive...." Well I DO know better and I DID pay for those necropsies and as a result I know better. Hopefully as a result of this post, everyone reading will now know better too.


Tortdad, Can you tell us how your babies first few days and weeks differed from what I do with mine?

 

[Tom]

Not coincidentally, I have never been contacted for help with chronic dehydration symptoms or dying babies from any customers of Lance, Austin, Katherine or anyone else who starts them in a similar warm, humid and hydrated fashion. I'm going to fathom a guess that none of their babies "just aren't meant to survive" either.

My point is this: We are dealing with a husbandry issue here, not fate.

 

[tortdad]

Not coincidentally, I have never been contacted for help with chronic dehydration symptoms or dying babies from any customers of Lance, Austin, Katherine or anyone else who starts them in a similar warm, humid and hydrated fashion. I'm going to fathom a guess that none of their babies "just aren't meant to survive" either.

My point is this: We are dealing with a husbandry issue here, not fate.

What I was told is that these babies were started per your methods.

 

[tortdad]

I'm not sure how much sub straight she ate in the first day or not but I know she was kept in a brooder box, on paper towels, in a humid closed chamber. I did the very same thing, it was on her last day that I let her off the paper towels and onto the cypress mulch/soil substrate.

If your saying 8-10 days for the umbilical scar to close then I'm thinking that's where the problem was. After 8 weeks hers was still open (as per the pic above). Possible infection???

 

[Tom]

If your saying 8-10 days for the umbilical scar to close then I'm thinking that's where the problem was. After 8 weeks hers was still open (as per the pic above). Possible infection???

That would be my best guess. Personally, I would not have moved that baby until after the umbilical scar was closed up. I'm just throwing that out there for the people reading to learn from.

Sorry about your loss.