How To Raise Sulcata Hatchlings and Babies discussion thread

Franklin10

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RE: How To Raise Sulcata Hatchlings and Babies.

that was great thanx for the help :)
 

Franklin10

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RE: How To Raise Sulcata Hatchlings and Babies.

wait how do you know if he is getting Pyramid???
 

Tom

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RE: How To Raise Sulcata Hatchlings and Babies.

Franklin10 said:
wait how do you know if he is getting Pyramid???

Start a thread with a pic of your little guy, and we'll go from there.
 

tortoises101

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RE: How To Raise Sulcata Hatchlings and Babies.

Tom said:
I'm finding that the Geochelone pardalis pardalis subspecies of the leopard tortoise shows all the good traits of sulcatas (fearlessness, curiosity, friendliness, boldness, hardiness, good appetite, cold tolerance, etc...), without all the draw backs (HUGE size, destructiveness, digging, aggressiveness). I tend to pick species based on which ones are best suited to my environment. I live in Southern CA so most species can live outside here year round with a little heated house, but its very dry and very hot in the summer, so I tend to stick with desert-type species.

What about Geochelone pardalis babcocki?
 

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RE: How To Raise Sulcata Hatchlings and Babies.

tortoises101 said:
Tom said:
I'm finding that the Geochelone pardalis pardalis subspecies of the leopard tortoise shows all the good traits of sulcatas (fearlessness, curiosity, friendliness, boldness, hardiness, good appetite, cold tolerance, etc...), without all the draw backs (HUGE size, destructiveness, digging, aggressiveness). I tend to pick species based on which ones are best suited to my environment. I live in Southern CA so most species can live outside here year round with a little heated house, but its very dry and very hot in the summer, so I tend to stick with desert-type species.

What about Geochelone pardalis babcocki?

Babcocks are often referred to as pretty rocks for a reason.
 

tortoises101

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RE: How To Raise Sulcata Hatchlings and Babies.

Tom said:
tortoises101 said:
Tom said:
I'm finding that the Geochelone pardalis pardalis subspecies of the leopard tortoise shows all the good traits of sulcatas (fearlessness, curiosity, friendliness, boldness, hardiness, good appetite, cold tolerance, etc...), without all the draw backs (HUGE size, destructiveness, digging, aggressiveness). I tend to pick species based on which ones are best suited to my environment. I live in Southern CA so most species can live outside here year round with a little heated house, but its very dry and very hot in the summer, so I tend to stick with desert-type species.

What about Geochelone pardalis babcocki?

Babcocks are often referred to as pretty rocks for a reason.

Huh, well that name is pretty fitting. ;) Do the babcocks have the same personality as the pardalis? What about behavior?
 

Yvonne G

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RE: How To Raise Sulcata Hatchlings and Babies.

So far, the two pardalis babies that I got from Tom show quite a bit more activity than the babcock babies I've had in the past. I would venture to say that they are more outgoing, but they're still pretty small to give a knowledgeable reply.
 

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RE: How To Raise Sulcata Hatchlings and Babies.

tortoises101 said:
Huh, well that name is pretty fitting. ;) Do the babcocks have the same personality as the pardalis? What about behavior?

They are totally different. Might as well be two different species. Babcocks tend to be shy, uninterested in people, and some times fearful even. They are also not very active in comparison to some species, hence the nickname "pretty rocks". These are generalities. Often people talk about how good their babcocks are, but its very relative. There are also a lot of hybrids out there which would account for some of the more personable ones.

In contrast, the Gpp are very sulcata-like in personality. To me, that is a good thing. They are interested, curious, engaging and unafraid. They are much more active and cruise around doing interesting things. They are also generally hardier, more cold tolerant, and more resistant to getting sick. They can get kinda big, but other than that they are darn near the perfect tortoise, in my opinion.
 

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RE: How To Raise Sulcata Hatchlings and Babies.

Wish we would have thought of looking on here first......hopefullly we can safe our Sully from this hatchling failiure syndrome..thanks for all your information and advice
 

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moraima_jay

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RE: How To Raise Sulcata Hatchlings and Babies.

Tom said:
Here are my thoughts on how to house, feed and care for hatchling and small sulcatas:

Indoor Housing: The bigger the better. Got room for a 4x8' tortoise table? Great! Sweater boxes and Christmas tree storage bins work great. Contrary to the popular trend right now, I actually PREFER glass tanks for all the reasons people say they are bad. "They are too tall and restrict airflow." Great! More humidity. "The tall sides hold in too much heat." Great! I can use a lower wattage bulb and my tortoise will stay warmer for less $. "They can see out and this invisible barrier causes stress." After 20 years of sulcatas in glass tanks, this has never been a problem for me. You can tape something opaque to the glass, if they constantly rub their nose on it or try to walk through it. I have never had to do this. I like them being able to see me, and me them. You can also use horse watering troughs, cement mixing tubs or large reptile tubs. I generally prefer something waterproof because babies need high humidity and moisture. Wood does not hold up well when its wet all the time and must be sealed somehow.

Substrate: Coco coir. Cypress mulch. Orchid bark. Plain, additive free, soil. Sphagnum peat moss. Pick one or any combination. I recommend you do NOT use any sand, wood shavings, corn cob bedding, walnut shell bedding, alfalfa or grass pellets, newspaper bedding, any type of hay or any other new fad bedding that comes along. Keep your substrate damp to increase the humidity in the enclosure. If you can keep your humidity around 80% at tortoise level, you'll have a healthy, well hydrated, pyramid free, happy tortoise. Sometimes I cover part of the top of the enclosure to hold in humidity.

Humid hide boxes: Use at least one. These will help prevent dehydration and pyramiding and simulate the humid burrows that they would have in the wild, to a degree. I like to use plastic shoe boxes for these and semi-bury them in the substrate. I use a Dremel tool to cut out the right size door hole and a quarter inch drill bit to make a couple of ventilation holes on opposing sides. If they don't use them on their own, I try to "train" them to use them by putting them in the boxes after lights out. Here's an example of a couple:
2rhqtxg.jpg

I use fine coco coir inside them as it does not mold or grow any fungus. I like to keep it wet in there.

Heat: I like to use small, 35-50watt, overhead, spot or flood bulbs for this. Always use ceramic fixtures, never the cheaper plastic ones. In a cool house, I'll use a bulb like this AND a ceramic heating element (CHE). Keep them both over one side. This will be the "warm" side and it should be 80-90 degrees. Directly under your bulb will be the "basking spot" and it should be 100-110 degrees, but only in that one spot. The other side of the enclosure should be around 75-80 and will serve as the "cool" side. "Night" temps should stay 75-80ish. These temps will insure that your little tort does not get sick with all the humidity in there. These are the four temps to be concerned with. They should be regularly checked with a temp gun AND a remote probed thermometer. Temps can be adjusted by raising or lowering your bulbs or raising or lowering the wattage. You do not need Mercury Vapor Bulbs or any other UV bulbs if your tortoise gets regular sunshine. 20-30 minutes twice a week is adequate, more is better. Put your light bulb on a timer for around 12 hours a day. They need it dark at night. This is where the CHE comes in. It keeps them warm AND dark at night. Also, I like to project my spot bulb down onto a flat rock or a piece of slate. They can bask on it and it absorbs and radiates the heat from the bulb over a larger area when they are not on it. This also gives you a good place to measure your basking temp with your heat gun. Here's an example of a basic enclosure to show what I'm talking about:
1tnajt.jpg


Here's a digital thermometer with a wireless, remote probe.
rrjhgl.jpg


Food: Weeds; mallow, filaree, dandelion, sow thistle, plantain, etc... Grass. Mulberry, rose, hibiscus and grape leaves. Hibiscus and rose flowers. Spineless opuntia cactus. Mazuri mixed in with other greens a couple of times a week. Spring mix and leafy greens from the grocery store. Variety is good. Avoid fruit, and use foods like spinach, broccoli, cabbage, iceberg lettuce, very infrequently, if ever. When they get big, over a foot, you can try to introduce dry grass hay. But babies usually won't eat it.

Supplements: This is debatable and the opinions run the whole spectrum from "none ever" to "lots every day". I like to use Rep-cal twice a week in a very small amount. I use Herptivite once a week in a small amount on one of the days that I didn't use the calcium. Because my torts get sun year round, I do not generally use any calcium with D3 added.

Water: Use a terra cotta plant saucer, or something similar, and bury it so that its flush with the substrate. It will need to be cleaned at least once a day, maybe more.

Sunshine/Outdoor enclosures: Sunshine is necessary. 20-30 minutes twice a week will prevent MBD, but more is better. I like to do an hour or two a day for hatchlings and gradually more as they get bigger. Here is a thread with more info on how to do this safely:
http://tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Cheap-Easy-Simple-Sunning-Enclosure
Putting them out for some sun will also get them to exercise more which is also very good for them.

Pyramiding prevention: This is all new stuff. You won't see it on an internet care sheet. It is my opinion and the product of 20 years of utter failure and tons of research, observation and trial and error. Lot's of other people helped me to reach these findings, so its not just me. Here is how to grow a smooth, healthy sulcata: Keep them humid, hydrated, warm and spray their shells 3-4 times a day. Yes they are desert animals, but the babies stay hidden in burrows, root balls and leaf litter, where it is HUMID. Babies don't just walk around out in the open in the hot dry air in the wild. They'd get eaten if they did. Once they get to around 6-8" humidity and moisture is much less critical. It is important to get them sunshine, exercise and a good diet too, but hydration, humidity, and moisture is the KEY to preventing pyramiding. Soak them in shallow, warm water at least once a day. I soak them first thing in the morning and again after a sunning session in the hot, dry air here. Sometimes, I'll soak them a third time before lights out. Sulcatas are very resistant to shell rot and fungus. I have never seen a single case of shell rot on a sulcata. As long as they are kept warm (75 or warmer) they will not get respiratory infections either. I have tried to keep one too wet and could not induce any sort of problem. You don't have to go crazy, but do keep them well hydrated. Pyramiding has nothing to do with excess protein or too much food. It has everything to do with MOISTURE, HUMIDITY and HYDRATION.


These things are MY opinion and are based on MY experiences with sulcatas and other torts over the last 20 years. My way is not the only way and other people have also raised smooth sulcatas, but it is very rare and can usually be traced back to high levels of humidity and or hydration. Much of this can also be applied to other species, but as of now, sulcatas are the only one that I have kept THIS wet.

If anyone wants to debate or question any of this please PM me or start a new thread.

The end.
2mfm79i.jpg

wish i would have read this before i got the sullies..............your information is great!! thank you;)
 

NacolleMarie_MorlasMom

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RE: How To Raise Sulcata Hatchlings and Babies.

This thread is Incredible!! thank you soo much, i was so completely lost reading 50 different things from different websites all of them completely contridicting the other, I wasnt sure what to do. Thank you for posting this tom!

I want my baby to be healthy and of course happy and now I know what I need to do.
 

Fernando

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RE: How To Raise Sulcata Hatchlings and Babies.

NacolleMarie_MorlasMom said:
This thread is Incredible!! thank you soo much, i was so completely lost reading 50 different things from different websites all of them completely contridicting the other, I wasnt sure what to do. Thank you for posting this tom!

I want my baby to be healthy and of course happy and now I know what I need to do.

+1 I wish I had this information before I bought mine as well. I'm $150 out of pocket for uneccesary equipment!! If anyone is interested in purchasing a barely used 10 gallon Aquarim and Florescent TUBE UVB Let me know!!! =))
 

kolt1988

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RE: How To Raise Sulcata Hatchlings and Babies.

Thank you so much for that information it is great to finally get some good reliable information...I will be using this site a lot again thank you and my little tort thanks you as well. :D
 

mrfun39

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RE: How To Raise Sulcata Hatchlings and Babies.

I'm definitely putting this into practice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 

Tom

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RE: How To Raise Sulcata Hatchlings and Babies.

mrfun39 said:
I'm definitely putting this into practice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I've been doing it for almost a year with my hatchlings and almost 3 years with my juvenile. The results have made me very happy. Loads of other people tell me that it works great for them too.

Good luck and keep us posted.
 

Spider Woman

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RE: How To Raise Sulcata Hatchlings and Babies.

Ok, this is my first post. Hope I'm hitting all the right buttons-ha ha

I haven't had time to read all over the forum and I'm sure it's been discussed before but bare with me....

I have quit reading on different sites on the internet because it's driving me crazy with contradictions!!! So...one thing that has peaked my curiosity is the substrate. One site said to use papertowels and change them out daily. However your post makes more sense, the soils would keep in alot more humidity. How often do you need to change out the substrate. I know I will be able to scoop out the poop but what about the urine? Surely with a big area like a large tank or horse trough it would be way to expensive to completly change it out very often.

Advice anyone? I have 2 teeny tiny babies. Picked them up at a herp show and yes I know how big they get and have plenty of outdoor room for them. I do know other people that have them and fell in love with the big old guys.

Thanks Robin
 

Kristina

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RE: How To Raise Sulcata Hatchlings and Babies.

Hello, welcome to the forum :)

It is not necessary to change the substrate often. To be honest, if you are soaking daily, they usually defecate and urinate in the soak. Tortoises are not built to pee often. In the wild they hold it for a long time. I have enclosures where the substrate has not been changed in years - there is no odor, and because I spot clean, there is no build up of defecation.

I have seen people recommend paper towels and newspaper. I personally get ANGRY. There is no one in the wild putting tortoises on paper towels. In the wild, they poop and pee in their burrow, and no one cleans it. The walk on dirt and rocks and plants, instead of dry slippery newspaper or paper towel that dehydrates them and deforms their legs.

In the end, it is your tortoise and your decision on how to care for it. But I strongly suggest you lean towards a "natural" substrate. I use dirt, lol. Doesn't get more true to nature than that.
 

DeanS

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RE: How To Raise Sulcata Hatchlings and Babies.

Thanks Kristina! I never asked and personally, I've used the same batch of coco coir for 6 months or so...I just take it and rinse it and let it sit in the sun to bake...then soak it again, drain it and put it back in their tank! Never had a problem with bugs mold or any other anomalies...other than a little coloration from the husk dust!;)
 
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Maggie Cummings

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RE: How To Raise Sulcata Hatchlings and Babies.

I have numerous habitats that have had the same orchid bark in them for several years. Like Kristina I spot clean and soak the babies often so they can urinate in the water. Now that I think about it, I've had several clutches over the years on that same orchid bark...
 

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RE: How To Raise Sulcata Hatchlings and Babies.

Ditto for me. Mine pee and poop in their daily soaks, so there's not much to clean up. I too have some substrate that has been in use for years.
 
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