How to approach a pet store owner about their reptiles' conditions...?

[Floof]

So, this is something that has plagued me since I got into reptiles 3 years ago. Almost from the very moment I decided to get my first snake, I've been dealing with bad pet stores that don't take good care of their animals but won't take good advice, either.

One of those pet stores (the first, and worst, pet store I've dealt with) has long since been shut down. The nearest Petco to me when I lived in Washington only did anything about... well... Anything, when I pointed out their water dragon had a broken toe (though the woman ignored me completely when I suggested misting their bone-dry Redfoots). The most notable of these stores has been one little reptile-specialty store whose egotist owner would go on furious rants if you dared correct her. (Needless to say, we didn't exactly get along!)

We moved a week ago, from rainy Washington to sunny Utah. Just two blocks from where I live now, there is a pet store that seems to specialize in herps. All three times I've been in, my attention is immediately drawn to their Sulcata hatchlings (and the one Leopard hatchling kept with them), which are kept on a bone-dry pellet (alfalfa, maybe?) bedding. There are other issues in the store, as well--cohabbed (as many as 20 to one small enclosure) snakes, exposed and low-hanging light bulbs in the reptile tanks, that sort of thing. Plus one or two small adult (or maybe sub-adult) Sulcatas that roam the store. Not the worst pet store I've been in... But they could certainly use some direction.

The problem is, how do I approach the store owner about this? I'm going in tomorrow to discuss purchasing one of the store's extra display enclosures for my corn snake, and want to address some of my concerns directly to the owner while I have the opportunity... Especially the state of the hatchling tortoises.

So, how would you all approach an unfamiliar store owner about this, or any other serious, glaring problem? What should I tell the man? Approach these things as suggestions, inquiries, demands? What works best for you? What do you think would work best in this situation?

The more advice I can get on this, the better. I feel like I should be able to make a difference in such a nearby store... And it's driving me insane knowing that such bad conditions are being maintained so close to where I sleep. Crap, just thinking about it has kept me up all night so far! If I had the means and space to accommodate a baby tortoise right now, I'd be hard pressed NOT to spend my last dollar on that poor baby leopard (who doesn't appear to be in good condition)...

So, yeah. Any advice at all on how to approach this situation would be highly appreciated. I'm going to try to get some sleep now; maybe I'll even manage a few hours of shut-eye before I have to head to the store tomorrow morning (errr, make that later today!).

(General advice on the subject would be nice, too, considering I plan to go "pet storing" around Salt Lake sometime soon, and this not-so-great pet store down the street is supposed to be THE best pet store in the greater Salt Lake area... Oh boy.)

Thanks in advance for any advice on this issue!

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

Say your thoughts in a friendly manner...might work out well!

 

[jackrat]

I offer to help correct the problems. On three occasions,my assistance was accepted. Usually it's not,but all you can do is offer. On the occasions that my help was accepted,the shop workers had good intentions,but were going about it all wrong.

 

[Yvonne G]

First thing to remember is to be humble. No one likes a smart alec, know-it-all telling them what to do and that they are WRONG! And find a good care sheet to leave with them.

 

[sara]

either they will take your suggestions or they wont. I agree it is very hard for me to go into a pet store and see baby torts or any animal in a not so suitable enviroment. Everytime i go into petco i want to take the baby torts home, I feel so bad for them.
But they are in it for the money. I dont think the employees realize these animals are perishable. They get them in and move them out fast as they can to make a buck. Hopefully these animals fall into the hands of good peolpe. But realistically most of the time they dont.
People dont see reptiles in the same way as they do cute puppies or fluffy kittens. Its very sad and i wish there were more laws to protect them.
I wish you luck.

 

[PeanutbuttER]

Welcome to UTAH! Good to hear someone else from here is on TFO. I haven't talked with any pet store owners, but I would think that you could either 1) talk to them humbly in person or 2) write a letter to the manager and include a caresheet.

 

[Floof]

I'll be talking to the store owner himself; might be better than speaking with employees, or it might be worse...

Humble and friendly, got it. How do you approach offering your help, jackrat?

I don't have a printer, and don't know of any really good, formal care sheets on sulcatas and leos. My plan right now is to write down some websites--things like Sulcata Station, Africantortoise.com, and, of course, TFO (especially some of Tom's threads), for him to investigate himself. Is this better, worse, or no different than having an honest care sheet printed and in-hand? I guess it'd be worse if he's not the type to get online and look these things up himself... One can hope, though.

Sara--I've realized that about pet stores. A sad reality, I agree. I believe it's at least worth a try, though. This store, at least, is a small, personally owned one, not a corporation, so if the owner WANTS to improve things, it'll at least be easier than a "big box" store where they always have the "rules and regulations" excuse to throw in your face.

Peanutbutter-- So there are TFO members in Utah! Great to know!

Anyway, I'll be heading to the store in the next hour. I'll fill you guys in on what happened when I get back. Wish me luck!!!

 

[Missy]

I would talk to him one on one. Maybe suggest TFO.

 

[Tom]

I have been doing this since the mid-80's. I was a kid back then so its getting easier now. People are more willing to listen to someone a little older. They are all different and will respond to different angles. First of all everyones advice of humble and friendly is generally the best way to start, but also be confident and sure of yourself. Sometimes friendliness is taken as weakness or submissiveness and that's not the vibe you want to give off either, in most cases. Just know going in that most are going to ignore you at best, or get angry with you at worst. When they get angry, I stay calm and ask them to question themselves about why someone trying to help their business would make them so angry. Frequently this sort of calm logic will settle them down. When they realize you have nothing to gain and much to risk by attempting what you are attempting, it will sometimes get them to consider what you are telling them.

A few times, the dollars and cents approach has worked. I tell them that the couple over there was just talking about the dirty water bowls or the exposed bulbs or the dry, pyramided tortoises and they, like me, are taking their business elsewhere. Then you calmly ask, "how have sales been?" "Wanna sell more?" "This is how..." There is no surefire one way to do it. Every person you talk to will be different. Sometimes it helps to appeal to the person who is the actual caretaker, rather than the higher ups. When I was a pet store peon, it was all up to me how the animals were taken care of. The owners and managers didn't really care. Try talking to a few of the employees and you might find a sympathetic ear somewhere.

Good luck, and never stop trying no matter how many times you fail. You are doing the right thing by speaking up. Don't take their reaction personally. Remember its THEIR reaction. Its about THEM, not you. If they have a bad emotional response, they get to keep it after you leave and go on your merry way. Sometimes persistence pays off too. Most people will react badly at first, but the second or third time you try, they've had some time to calm down and think it over. I've had many of them apologize for being such an A**HOLE and then actually ask me questions about what I was trying to get across. When they realize you are trying to HELP their business and you really do know what you are talking about, they usually get more receptive. Some just take a little longer to get to this state.

 

[Floof]

Missy-- I intend to do both of those things.

Tom--Thanks so much for the in-depth advice! I really appreciate it!!

 

[Maggie Cummings]

I think that your thought about writing down some web sites and having the owner look them up herself, while good intentioned, won't work. Some people like that owner work their fannies off and wouldn't take the time to do any computer research, but if you send me your address in a PM I will print out a couple of care sheets and mail them to you. I don't think you should go in there without care sheets in hand to back up what you are trying to tell her. All of the suggestions have been great especially the one telling you to offer to help her change things around. But pick one battle. Don't talk about the snakes and light bulbs and the dirty floor. Just talk about the tortoises, or whichever you choose to discuss and also go in knowing she's going to think you are an arrogant *** and she probably won't change anything anyhow...but start off with the care sheets I will be glad to print some for you...

 

[Tom]

Maggie does that mean, I am an arrogant ***? Haha. I have been accused of exactly that...

Further, is it okay to be an arrogant ***, if you mean well and get the job done?

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Maggie does that mean, I am an arrogant ***? Haha. I have been accused of exactly that...

Further, is it okay to be an arrogant ***, if you mean well and get the job done?

I have tried to change several Mom and Pop pet stores and last summer the man I was talking to even got mad and called me an arrogant ***.
I first stopped in accidentally while a friend and I were on a rescue mission in a different town and we went in for the first time and saw Sulcata and Redfoots kept in a large dry pen. So I talked really nice to him so he could get to know me. Then I went home and printed out the care sheets and went back and tried to talk to him about the care they needed and he got mad and yelled at me calling me the wonderful name we are discussing now and invited me to leave the store. One of the things he told me was that he had been breeding and selling Redfoots for 30 years successfully and they didn't need humidity at all. As proven by the beautiful ones he had raised. hahaha. How do you argue with someone who has done the same thing the same way for 30 years and thinks it works???

 

[Floof]

Maggie--I'll just talk to him about the tortoises, then. I'm more worried about the conditions of the tiny hatchling tortoises right now than the snakes...

Thanks for the offer, but mail can take a while... If caresheets are a vital piece of the puzzle here, I could just as soon spend an hour and a few dollars at the public library...I do appreciate the offer, though.

I'll work on getting the caresheets. For now I'll simply broach the subject and try to coax the guy into adding some humidity to the regime. Not like it would hurt anything for his business; I highly doubt coco coir costs all that much more than alfalfa pellets, and his torts can't get much more lethargic than they already are.

Thanks again for everyone's advice! I didn't realize how late in the day it already is; time to take a shower and get going...

 

[PeanutbuttER]

Maggie--I'll just talk to him about the tortoises, then. I'm more worried about the conditions of the tiny hatchling tortoises right now than the snakes...

Thanks for the offer, but mail can take a while... If caresheets are a vital piece of the puzzle here, I could just as soon spend an hour and a few dollars at the public library...I do appreciate the offer, though.

I'll work on getting the caresheets. For now I'll simply broach the subject and try to coax the guy into adding some humidity to the regime. Not like it would hurt anything for his business; I highly doubt coco coir costs all that much more than alfalfa pellets, and his torts can't get much more lethargic than they already are.

Thanks again for everyone's advice! I didn't realize how late in the day it already is; time to take a shower and get going...

A local pet store here (about 2 hours a way away from where you're at) sells the coco coir bricks for like 2 or 3 bucks a brick, so these stores must be able to get them for even cheaper than that. I don't thin money is the problem though, it's probably more about the extra work required to moisten and fluff it out, you know, might take him an extra 15-20 minutes...

 

[dmmj]

you catch more flies with honey than you do with vinegar. if you go in with kindness and you might get a better result.

 

[Floof]

Things went well!!!

Fortunately, although he is doing several things wrong, it seems the store owner DOES care (at least to some extent) about the animals.

I expressed my concern about the lack of humidity (humbly, but as confidently as I could... while shaking like a leaf, lol), and he responded that too much moisture could give them kidney and liver damage (something I've never heard of, but it's better than just "'cause they're desert turtles" or something). We discussed it briefly. I pointed out that too little water, too, could cause that same kidney damage, and told him what I'd learned here--that these "desert" tortoises spend their hatchling and juvenile lives largely underground in moist burrows. I told him about Tom's experimentation with humidity, and the great success he's had so far.

The store owner, after not much coaxing (good news!!!), decided to put a humid hide box in the enclosure--as a start--since he already does that with his "desert lizards" (i.e. leopard geckos), to give the tortoises the option. Since I'd already written down the links of a couple care sites, TFO, and three of Tom's excellent threads concerning humidity, pyramiding, and raising baby sullies, I went ahead and gave him that. He had already done some reading on Sulcata Station, which gives me hope that he'll pursue the issue further. I especially recommended he browse TFO and read through Tom's threads.

With any luck, I'll walk into the store next week and see some happy, humid, and SMOOTH-growing torties!!!

Thanks, everyone, for the great advice! It really helped!!!

 

[Tom]

Aww, you're making me blush...

Seriously, this sort of thing IS the reason I spend so much time typing all that stuff out. I did it wrong for all those years. Not only did I do it wrong, I told everyone else how to do it wrong too. We all had it wrong back then.

Well now we've got it right. It took a lot of years and of lot of people, but we've got it now. All that's left is to get the word out. So thank you Taylor. You did your good deed for the day.

 

[Floof]

Thank you, Tom, for even making this information available. Without the bold advances in hatchling tortoise care you have made, I (and far too many other people, I'm sure) would have walked into that store and thought absolutely nothing of how those little torts were being kept. You're the real brains behind this new knowledge; I'm just a humble messenger.

 

[Floof]

Update...

I went into the store again today. He has since added two humid hides, but that's it... Their substrate is still rabbit pellets and it's still dry in the main area. It's a start, anyway!

The owner wasn't working today, so I wasn't able to ask him if he had even read the TFO threads, or if he just didn't agree with all humidity all the time still. Whatever the case, I'm glad that he at least put humid boxes in there.