How soon after laying can/should a female Sulcata be bred again?

[Tank'sMom]

Greetings! New to the breeding forum, but I'm sure I know some of you from the Sulcata Forum.
Let me try to keep this quick.
Background: I've had a large male Sulcata, over 100 pounds, for a few years now. He is about 19 years old and keeps to himself.
About 2 1/2 months ago I "rescued", for a pretty penny I might add, a 50 pound 10 year old female. She arrived gravid. One of the reasons I rescued her was because the kid who had her was keeping her with 3 males, in a small area. She was pretty beat up when she first arrived, but now is well adjusted and friendly.
She laid a clutch about a week ago. I was somewhat prepared but had given up because I was expecting eggs within a month of arrival.
Anyhoo... She did lay, and smashed all but 4 of the eggs in the process. I am currently incubating the eggs, but due to cracks, rushed set up and now mold... I'm a little concerned.
Now that I have all the things I need to breed and incubate, I am interested in giving it a go.
They had been introduced before, we are doing renovations on our yard and pens and my husband stuck him in with her, without consulting me. Nothing happened. They got along just fine. Ate together, no aggression, no breeding attempts. Could that have been because she was gravid?
They live in separate pens on either side of my house.
Aside from making some improvements, somehow, advice welcomed, to make the soil more suitable for nesting, I'm good to go! She didn't dig much of a hole last time and this resulted in her smashing up about 6-8 eggs.
So, what next? When can I "introduce" them again?

 

[Tank'sMom]

Nobody?
Ok, well I put them together yesterday. No action yet.... Nada.

 

[Yvonne G]

She probably won't be receptive to his advances for a month or so.

 

[dmmj]

are you planning on breeding her?

 

[Tank'sMom]

She probably won't be receptive to his advances for a month or so.

Problem is, he's not making any advances. She just laid last week, but was a different male. He has never seen another Sulcata, much less a female. A few months ago he was humping everything in sight, but that stopped. Is it a seasonal thing???

 

[Tank'sMom]

are you planning on breeding her?

The short answer, yes. I rescued her from a situation where she was kept in a small area with 3 other males. She arrived just over 2 months ago really beat up. She laid a clutch last week.
I was reluctant to introduce them because of this, but he has been very docile towards her. ....too docile. He's not making any moves!
She seems fine with him, and he with her. But they mostly ignore each other.
After she laid last week, and I ended with the "breeding bug". The last clutch didn't turn out so well, but I now want to give it another shot.
Is it too soon?

 

[Sara G.]

I would think it's too soon. Since she just laid a clutch last week.
Plus if she hasn't had the best time of it, I'd take more time to make sure she's healthy and comfortable before tossing her in with males.
But I'm not a breeder and that's just my personal, unprofessional opinion.

 

[Tank'sMom]

I would think it's too soon. Since she just laid a clutch last week.
Plus if she hasn't had the best time of it, I'd take more time to make sure she's healthy and comfortable before tossing her in with males.
But I'm not a breeder and that's just my personal, unprofessional opinion.

I agree with that. The thing is though, they get on just fine. No fighting, nothing. He is very gentle with her. She did just lay last week, but she's been here with me for over 2 months. She is very healthy, happy and doesn't seem to mind him one bit. I can tell she's used to being with other torts because she has no problem going right up to him. He's the one who is more "freaked out" by her. He's never seen another tort before her.
They have a big area and there's a "house" that she can go in, sleeps in, that he can't fit in, if she wanted to get away.
If they were fighting or he was ramming her, I'd totally separate them. I just wanted to see what would happen, I hear all these stories about males going crazy around females, but nothing like that has happened. So, I guess right now they are just getting to know each other?
I'm wondering if this is normal behavior???

 

[dmmj]

my best guess would be he's not sexually mature yet.
(Of course that could be used to describe most men )

 

[Sara G.]

As long as she's not stressed then I guess it's okay. But personally I wouldn't let them breed yet. I'd give her ample time to recover.
I know if I was a tortoise who just laid eggs, I wouldn't want to do it again just yet.

 

[SarahChelonoidis]

They also don't just lay a single clutch after being breed - if she just laid eggs she could still have another fertilized clutch (or more) gestating inside her. A single successful mating could last her more than a year of viable egg laying.

I would personally not keep this new tortoise in contact with your big male just yet. Quarantine for diseases and physical injury prevention should be followed.

 

[Tom]

So many elements to this question…

They can breed constantly. There is no down time after a clutch. I had one male that bred 15+ times a day and the male his sibling would only breed 3 times a week. Also, sulcata females can store sperm and make fertile clutches for months after a single breeding. Leopard females can store it for 5 years.

Some males are obsessive breeders and some are just casual about it once in a while. This can change depending on mood, weather, hormones, etc. These two should never be left alone without someone home. He could kill her in minutes after ignoring her for months. They should never be kept in pairs.

Why do you want to breed her? A 50 pound female can produce 100 babies a year. What will you do with all those babies? This is for the sake of conversation. It matters not to me whether you make sulcata babies or not, I'm just curious about why, and if you really understand what you are getting into. Do you know how much work it is to incubate, hatch, raise, soak, house, feed and try to sell 100 babies a year?

Different vets and keepers recommend different amounts of time for quarantine. I've not seen anyone recommend less than 3 months, and my vet recommends 12 months "if I care about the animals I'm mixing…".

All of this is up for discussion. Please ask lots of questions.

 

[Yvonne G]

Here's my opinion on breeding your PET sulcata just for the sake of breeding: A single sulcata gets to be the family pet. He comes to you when you're outside, follows you around, enjoys neck scratches, etc. Once you've introduced a female to your pet male sulcata, he's no longer the friendly pet you once had. Now his whole reason for living is to breed. To look for that female and to breed her. No more interaction with the human, only looking for the female.

If you just want the experience of hatching eggs and raising babies, try to find someone who will give or sell you a few eggs.

 

[Tank'sMom]

my best guess would be he's not sexually mature yet.
(Of course that could be used to describe most men )

He's 19 years old. Is that not mature enough??

 

[Tank'sMom]

Here's my opinion on breeding your PET sulcata just for the sake of breeding: A single sulcata gets to be the family pet. He comes to you when you're outside, follows you around, enjoys neck scratches, etc. Once you've introduced a female to your pet male sulcata, he's no longer the friendly pet you once had. Now his whole reason for living is to breed. To look for that female and to breed her. No more interaction with the human, only looking for the female.

If you just want the experience of hatching eggs and raising babies, try to find someone who will give or sell you a few eggs.

Thank you for that. Tank is not much of a pet. I mean, he had very little human interaction when he was younger. Over the time we've had him, he has definitely become more friendly, he'll come to get food, but he does not follow me around or enjoy being touched. He's friendly enough, and we enjoy his company, but he keeps to himself.
I have nobody around to give me eggs. I did breed exotics before, professionally, and have a degree in Zoology with a minor in Herpetology but that was 20 years ago, pre-9/11 when I found everything changed as far as shipping.
I am now an RN, I guess this whole experience just gave me the "breeding bug" again.

 

[Markw84]

I will add that my experience with my males is a bit different than Yvonne's. The breeding activity is sporadic. Sometimes a few times a day. Then a few weeks with no interest. However, all of them are still very intentive to people. WHATEVER they are doing, when we go out there, they rush over to see what we have. My grandkids love to ride my biggest male, who is over 120 lbs. now and 18 yrs old. Even some times when he was just breeding an hour ago, he is eagerly following one grandchild, eating out of his hand, while the other rides on his back - a female right next to them trying to get food also.

 

[Tank'sMom]

So many elements to this question…

They can breed constantly. There is no down time after a clutch. I had one male that bred 15+ times a day and the male his sibling would only breed 3 times a week. Also, sulcata females can store sperm and make fertile clutches for months after a single breeding. Leopard females can store it for 5 years.

Some males are obsessive breeders and some are just casual about it once in a while. This can change depending on mood, weather, hormones, etc. These two should never be left alone without someone home. He could kill her in minutes after ignoring her for months. They should never be kept in pairs.

Why do you want to breed her? A 50 pound female can produce 100 babies a year. What will you do with all those babies? This is for the sake of conversation. It matters not to me whether you make sulcata babies or not, I'm just curious about why, and if you really understand what you are getting into. Do you know how much work it is to incubate, hatch, raise, soak, house, feed and try to sell 100 babies a year?

Different vets and keepers recommend different amounts of time for quarantine. I've not seen anyone recommend less than 3 months, and my vet recommends 12 months "if I care about the animals I'm mixing…".

All of this is up for discussion. Please ask lots of questions.

You know your opinion means a lot to me, Tom.
When I acquired this female I planned to breed them but not necessarily right away. It has been almost 3 months since she arrived. She seems very healthy, no obvious issues. I know it's "best" to wait, longer still. I am just curious what other people do.
I know other keepers, even here, who keep their adult torts in groups. Do you separate the females after laying? To give them a break? Or do they just stay out with the males?
That is what the root of my question is.
If it is normal to do that, I was wondering if it was ok to introduce them at this point. I have introduced them in intervals. They have been very civil, no aggression, no mating attempts. At all. Has anyone ever had a gay tortoise? (I mean, no offense to any LGBTs) He has not made a move. I'm wondering if that is normal behavior or is there something causing it? Maybe he senses she is still retaining sperm? I'm very curious about the behavior because this is my first personal experience with 2 adult torts. I'm wondering what to expect?
As far as the actual breeding, I know there is a chance that I could end up with more eggs. Whether Tank and Tonka mate or not. After my experience with this most recent clutch, the loss of so many eggs, the idea of hatching my own torts, the whole process is very exciting.
If you remember, I was a professional breeder about 20 years ago. Burmese Pythons were my "bread and butter". So I have experienced the reward of incubating and hatching my own babies. After the realization that I could do this again, after she laid her clutch, I got excited about the prospect of experiencing that again.
As far as am I ready to deal with 100 hatchlings a year? If I need to be, I will be. Is the short answer. I don't expect that this will be the case, but if it is, do I have the time and money to deal with it? Yes.
I still need help from you guys here. I wouldn't want to do it without you. At this point I would be happy to have one decent sized healthy clutch in an incubator. I currently have the 4 eggs, that is good for now, I just want to know "what next?" I welcome advice.

I am an experienced, although almost 20 years ago, breeder with an albeit "old" degree in Herpetology (information I have not much used in sometime as I am now an RN for over 15 years) who wants to get more involved in my hobby and expand to small scale breeding and has the time and resources to do so with your help and the help of this community.
I am intrigued, interested, excited... Discouraged. I want to do this right and recognize this community... all of you... as my greatest resource.

 

[dmmj]

I think I can answer some of your questions. Since tortoise breeding is so energetic shall we say I only do it once a year. If they breed successfully they do and if they don't they don't. My males and females are kept separate all year and only introduced once a year for breeding purposes. I'm not telling you what to do with your tortoises just what I do with mine.

 

[dmmj]

He's 19 years old. Is that not mature enough??

tortoises sexually mature on size not age so no matter what age he is if he's not big enough he's not mature enough.

 

[Tom]

Most people keep sulcata adults either alone, or in groups with one male and several females. Pairs just don't work. I can't tell you how many people have argued this with me saying how its fine and they've done it for years, and then, eventually, they learn that I was trying to steer them the right way after things go bad. Mine have always lived in groups together all the time. No need to separate them in a relatively large outdoor enclosure. It hint people in the frozen north leave them together all year too. I also keep lone males sometimes, and those do very well too.

If you go with a group, 100 eggs per female, per year, is not unrealistic. My point is that if you go that route you will be running a baby factory for at least 9 months of every year, and baby tortoises are labor intensive if done correctly, and we all know that you'd be doing it correctly.

Another factor to consider in this conversation is that females take a while to really get up and running to full speed on the breeding thing. Some females just pop out fertile eggs from day one, but my experience is that sulcata females usually take at least a season or two to really get going even when they are large and fully mature. Younger, smaller ones can take 3-4 season to get going.

In your case, I'd recommend you house them separately, and if you really want to do the baby thing, put her in his enclosure from time to time for supervised visits.