How much is too much calcium?

[LadyGreek]

Excelent research Mark! This will be added to my notes! I wish I could have done as much reasearh, but I was going off the top of my head at work while I was supposed to be working. Haha!
My main point was to clear up the Red/Green leaf saga, because I didn't want Newbies thinking they had to stay away from them altogether. Another thing we have to keep in mind in the debate is we are debating a LARGE rage of Tort species with all different diets. What a Red-Foot can eat a Greek may not be able too and so forth.

But the main topic is Ca and I think a keeper should choose wisely based on the diet they feed their Torts and the quality of it's living spaces (Cuttlebone, UVA/UVB, natural sunlight.....ect. Just my own personal thought. Not trying to force it on anyone.

I agree completely. I DO think there is a 'core diet' that most commonly kept species can do well- the so-called 'Weed Diet', which would vary some based on where you are, what you have available, etc. I also completely agree that some of the lettuces that get overlooked in our quest for maximum calcium are a useful addition to the diet.

I DO really wish that someone would just finally do the research needed to determine at least a basic calcium (and vitamin D) need. It would make things so much easier!

(And I think I know which sites you have seen the information you gave at. Good sites, but I sometimes wonder about some of their information.)

I'm with you 100% on that Mark. I cant wait till this topic becomes a right way one way street only, because it's a nightmare topic. It feels like we are debating Religion or something. Haha!

Me too! I wonder about all the information floating on the web and whatnot. I just research all of it and put my own conclusion together on what sounds right and what doesn't (as a matter of fact I think we all do it this way!)

 

[cleinertson]

There has always been much debate about how much calcium supplementation one should be giving to their tortoises. Some use none. Some use a lot every day. Some allow their torts to self-administer. When people ask how much they should use, I frequently answer "somewhere between a lot, every day and none". Both of these extreme strategies seem to produce healthy torts for the people who use them. I, personally, opt for the little bit goes a long way strategy and just use a little a couple of times a week for young tortoises, in conjunction with a high calcium diet.

Some people believe that you can't give too much calcium, because it is water soluble and excess will simply pass out through the kidneys. I have always maintained that too much calcium can contribute to some bad stuff, including interference with absorption of other vitamins and minerals. Here is something that I just pulled off of the http://africantortoise.com website in their article on pyramiding. I don't agree with the whole page and everything on it, but there is some useful and pertinent info on there. Knowledge has advanced quite a bit since that article was written, but it is still a lot on good info on how to raise a healthy tortoise. Here's the relevant paragraph:


"Calcium is also an important factor. In the wild the main sources are from the plants, the soil and in the water. Phosphorous plays a limiting role in calcium utilization. High levels of phosphorous leads to calcium being leached from the bones. A recent study showed that teenage girls are now showing signs of early osteoporosis. The relate it to drinking soda which are high in phosphoric acid. For our tortoises the main dietary source of phosphorous is protein. So once again high protein diets tie in. To counter act this and to get the calcium/phosphorous ratio to a healthy 2:1 , its is often recommended to dust all food with calcium (usually calcium carbonate). While superficially it does seem to have benefit, it has its own problems. Too much calcium results in secondary deficiencies of zinc, copper and iodine, malabsorption of essential fatty acids, and formation of calcium-containing bladder stones. Lack of calcium results in soft shells that often accompany pyramiding."

Everything between the above quotes was copied and pasted directly from the Africantortoise.com website. If its not okay to do this, Mods please delete this portion of the post and I'll just refer everyone to go to the website and find it themselves.

The second to last sentence is primarily what I am referring to here. Please share your opinions.

I am new, but I have been feeding my young sulcata, Moshi, calcium every other day as directed by the seller, and she / he is now passing huge stones. I read that sometimes these stones require surgery. I just hope that by cutting back on calcium now, I will have a healthy tort, once again. She doesn't seem to be in pain. She is eating and pooping just fine so far. I love her and want to do the best for her.
cleinertson

 

[Maggie Cummings]

There has always been much debate about how much calcium supplementation one should be giving to their tortoises. Some use none. Some use a lot every day. Some allow their torts to self-administer. When people ask how much they should use, I frequently answer "somewhere between a lot, every day and none". Both of these extreme strategies seem to produce healthy torts for the people who use them. I, personally, opt for the little bit goes a long way strategy and just use a little a couple of times a week for young tortoises, in conjunction with a high calcium diet.

Some people believe that you can't give too much calcium, because it is water soluble and excess will simply pass out through the kidneys. I have always maintained that too much calcium can contribute to some bad stuff, including interference with absorption of other vitamins and minerals. Here is something that I just pulled off of the http://africantortoise.com website in their article on pyramiding. I don't agree with the whole page and everything on it, but there is some useful and pertinent info on there. Knowledge has advanced quite a bit since that article was written, but it is still a lot on good info on how to raise a healthy tortoise. Here's the relevant paragraph:


"Calcium is also an important factor. In the wild the main sources are from the plants, the soil and in the water. Phosphorous plays a limiting role in calcium utilization. High levels of phosphorous leads to calcium being leached from the bones. A recent study showed that teenage girls are now showing signs of early osteoporosis. The relate it to drinking soda which are high in phosphoric acid. For our tortoises the main dietary source of phosphorous is protein. So once again high protein diets tie in. To counter act this and to get the calcium/phosphorous ratio to a healthy 2:1 , its is often recommended to dust all food with calcium (usually calcium carbonate). While superficially it does seem to have benefit, it has its own problems. Too much calcium results in secondary deficiencies of zinc, copper and iodine, malabsorption of essential fatty acids, and formation of calcium-containing bladder stones. Lack of calcium results in soft shells that often accompany pyramiding."

Everything between the above quotes was copied and pasted directly from the Africantortoise.com website. If its not okay to do this, Mods please delete this portion of the post and I'll just refer everyone to go to the website and find it themselves.

The second to last sentence is primarily what I am referring to here. Please share your opinions.

I am new, but I have been feeding my young sulcata, Moshi, calcium every other day as directed by the seller, and she / he is now passing huge stones. I read that sometimes these stones require surgery. I just hope that by cutting back on calcium now, I will have a healthy tort, once again. She doesn't seem to be in pain. She is eating and pooping just fine so far. I love her and want to do the best for her.
cleinertson

Are you sure those are stones and not urates? A dehydrated tortoise or one almost dehydrated will pass almost hard urates, severely concentrated urine, not stones...Do you soak your tort? Is he drinking? Don't mean to hijack your thread Tom...

 

[Becki]

Another thing to consider...if you live in a dry climate (little rainfall) and your tortoise grazes outside the plants will have a higher concentration of calcium.

 

[biglove4bigtorts]

IMO, the calcium needs for each tortoise can be very differnt, even within the same species. Age, growth rate, being gravid, gender, environment, and other factors are at play. I think that wild tortoises are self-regulating and if a need for additional calcium is present, they may selectively graze more plants with higer amounts of available calcium.

I have kept many reptile and have never had any problems with hypercalcemia or hypocalcemia.
With my yearling Manoura, I did not supplement all Summer, b/c I was supplying thier daily diet from my own planting beds, that I amended with lime. Our soil is naturally acidic, so a few years growth of turnip greens, could potentally deplete the calcium levels in the soil and therfore affect the amount of calcium available in the plants grown there.

Now that I rely on Spring Mix and store-bought collards, turnip, mustard, and chicory greens, I supplement daily and very lightly with calcium and twice a week with vitamins and calcium with D3. I coat the greens so lightly, that when tossed in, the supplements are not visible.

Some considerations with Manouria are:
They come from areas with limestone deposits and alkaline soil. The vegetation will likely be high in calcium. The also have the majority of thier diet represented by high oxalate plants, like alocasias and colocasias. They are dense forest dwellers and thus recieve limited UVB exposure. Any pools of water they come across will also likely contain high levels of calcium leached from the limestone.

Two consideration with captive tortoises are:
Floruide in tap water. Flouride in too high of doses causes pitting and brittle bones and a small amount may or may not be causing unknown harm to our captives. Garden hoses are known for leaching lead and this is why it is ill advised to drink from them. If you are watering your garden and your tortoise graze with a hose, it may be causing a harmful accumulation of lead. There are lead free hoses and bottle spring water in the cheaper gallon jugs can be used to avoid flouride.

 

[Annieski]

IMO, the calcium needs for each tortoise can be very differnt, even within the same species. Age, growth rate, being gravid, gender, environment, and other factors are at play. I think that wild tortoises are self-regulating and if a need for additional calcium is present, they may selectively graze more plants with higer amounts of available calcium.

I have kept many reptile and have never had any problems with hypercalcemia or hypocalcemia.
With my yearling Manoura, I did not supplement all Summer, b/c I was supplying thier daily diet from my own planting beds, that I amended with lime. Our soil is naturally acidic, so a few years growth of turnip greens, could potentally deplete the calcium levels in the soil and therfore affect the amount of calcium available in the plants grown there.

Now that I rely on Spring Mix and store-bought collards, turnip, mustard, and chicory greens, I supplement daily and very lightly with calcium and twice a week with vitamins and calcium with D3. I coat the greens so lightly, that when tossed in, the supplements are not visible.

Some considerations with Manouria are:
They come from areas with limestone deposits and alkaline soil. The vegetation will likely be high in calcium. The also have the majority of thier diet represented by high oxalate plants, like alocasias and colocasias. They are dense forest dwellers and thus recieve limited UVB exposure. Any pools of water they come across will also likely contain high levels of calcium leached from the limestone.

Two consideration with captive tortoises are:
Floruide in tap water. Flouride in too high of doses causes pitting and brittle bones and a small amount may or may not be causing unknown harm to our captives. Garden hoses are known for leaching lead and this is why it is ill advised to drink from them. If you are watering your garden and your tortoise graze with a hose, it may be causing a harmful accumulation of lead. There are lead free hoses and bottle spring water in the cheaper gallon jugs can be used to avoid flouride.

Thank you for adding this info about the soil and water content [in specific regions].I think this is a very important thing to consider. I always used the conditioning agent for "tap water" in the fish isle--even though the Vet said tap was ok. How is it that we would have to be concerned about "organic" and then not pay attention to the additives used to "purify" our tap h2o.?

 

[biglove4bigtorts]

No thank you needed, just offer me a tort-friendlt safe haven- when the white coats come from me, b/c of my psychosis...tortoises on the brain 24/7...lol


I have had the unfortunate task of doing home necrospy on animals that appeared healthy, but died and I have been involved in groups, where seemingly healthy animals were developing cancer. We spent hours speculating and these issues with out common tap water supply and delivery method glared at us, though they may or may not have caused the problems. These where with chameleons by the way, not tortoises, but why put them at risk, when it could so easily be eliminated?

Oops...I got side tracked into dangers with muncipal water and off the calcium topic. I just thought it was worth while to consider some other sources for calcium in some species and also a possible source of depletion in areas with high flouride amounts in thier water.

 

[Livingstone]

This has been a very informative thread. It just reinforces all the things I've been doing.

Incase anybody is interested, livingstone is fed organic dandelion, kale, turnip greens, collards and mazuri. This is almost exclusively what shes been raised on. I got the information from WCT site, nutrient analysis of replacement foods for tortoises. Along with those foods, her water bowl is filled with water from a brita pitcher.

My calcium schedule is monday thru friday for calcium, tuesday and thursday for vitamins, and saturday and sunday are supplement free.

 

[Terry Allan Hall]

I've been told that, as I feed my torts cactus pads 2-3X a week, that augmenting their diets w/ calcium powder is now redundant...what is the general consensus about that?

TIA...

 

[Annieski]

JMO--I would agree with that thinking. Cactus is a great source of calcium--and if the tortoise readily eats it,along with other greens to provide the other nutrient and vitamins.

 

[Madkins007]

This has been a very informative thread. It just reinforces all the things I've been doing.

Incase anybody is interested, livingstone is fed organic dandelion, kale, turnip greens, collards and mazuri. This is almost exclusively what shes been raised on. I got the information from WCT site, nutrient analysis of replacement foods for tortoises. Along with those foods, her water bowl is filled with water from a brita pitcher.

My calcium schedule is monday thru friday for calcium, tuesday and thursday for vitamins, and saturday and sunday are supplement free.

I would suggest, that for you and BigLove, that this is a LOT of calcium and other vitamins. Mazuri has a good vitamin and calcium mix, and most of your plants are well over the 2:1 Ca: P usually recommended. Do you have a reason for all that?

Darrel Seneke's articles in the WCT are great, and the one you mentioned is very good. Just remember that it was done a few years ago and even then some of its conclusions were considered a bit out-dated.

 

[biglove4bigtorts]

I am not trying to be confrontational, just want to be certain I understand your question. I take you to mean that you think the amount of supplementation is excessive and was wondering what my reasoning was.

My torts got NO supplementation when the diet was all home-grown weeds and greens with a relative certainty of calcium content, b/c I lyme the soil. In a farmer's field, where turnip greens have been cultivated for years, the calcium content of the greems ,ay be signifigantly less. I also rely more on spring mix and since my trots have doubled in size in a few months, I feel that the growth spurt, coupled with food with a lower nutrient density, make light supplementation benificial. I use mostly TNT, Repashy, and bee poleen, with just a pinch of calcium and premade vitamins. I only dose with prepformed vitamins as a light dust twice a week and with just calcium and bee pollen added at as a pinch and mixed with TNT and Repashy, then dusted lightly on the greens...this is not excessive to my thought process, but if you have information to the contrary, I am open to learning any new information that helps me be a better servant to my animals.

This has been a very informative thread. It just reinforces all the things I've been doing.

Incase anybody is interested, livingstone is fed organic dandelion, kale, turnip greens, collards and mazuri. This is almost exclusively what shes been raised on. I got the information from WCT site, nutrient analysis of replacement foods for tortoises. Along with those foods, her water bowl is filled with water from a brita pitcher.

My calcium schedule is monday thru friday for calcium, tuesday and thursday for vitamins, and saturday and sunday are supplement free.

I would suggest, that for you and BigLove, that this is a LOT of calcium and other vitamins. Mazuri has a good vitamin and calcium mix, and most of your plants are well over the 2:1 Ca: P usually recommended. Do you have a reason for all that?

Darrel Seneke's articles in the WCT are great, and the one you mentioned is very good. Just remember that it was done a few years ago and even then some of its conclusions were considered a bit out-dated.

 

[Madkins007]

I am not trying to be confrontational, just want to be certain I understand your question. I take you to mean that you think the amount of supplementation is excessive and was wondering what my reasoning was.

My torts got NO supplementation when the diet was all home-grown weeds and greens with a relative certainty of calcium content, b/c I lyme the soil. In a farmer's field, where turnip greens have been cultivated for years, the calcium content of the greems ,ay be signifigantly less. I also rely more on spring mix and since my trots have doubled in size in a few months, I feel that the growth spurt, coupled with food with a lower nutrient density, make light supplementation benificial. I use mostly TNT, Repashy, and bee poleen, with just a pinch of calcium and premade vitamins. I only dose with prepformed vitamins as a light dust twice a week and with just calcium and bee pollen added at as a pinch and mixed with TNT and Repashy, then dusted lightly on the greens...this is not excessive to my thought process, but if you have information to the contrary, I am open to learning any new information that helps me be a better servant to my animals.

Supplementation is usually intended to 'fill in' where the diet is deficient. If the diet is OK, then supplementation is usually light and offered more as insurance.

Since both Repashy and TNT are calcium and vitamin supplements, you seem to be offering a high-calcium diet, plus a calcium/vitamin supplement, plus a calcium/vitamin supplement, plus calcium and vitamin supplements.

Have you run any sort of analysis to make sure they are getting enough phosphorous? They need phosphorous as well to help balance the calcium or the bones get too brittle. There is also a real risk of too much of other nutrients- for example, excess calcium inhibits iron absorption and tortoises need their iron.

I would also be interested in your thoughts about bee pollen as an additive for tortoises- I am not sure I understand the benefits of this.

Your comment that your torts have about doubled in size in a few months makes me a bit nervous. It suggests that they may be growing more rapidly than normal, which has certain long-term health connotations.

 

[biglove4bigtorts]

My tortoises' growth has been without ANY supplementation, animal protein, or anything else, aside from fresh, hand picked, and home-grown vegetation. I did not feed heavily on legumes and there are no abnormalities in the shells or signs of obesity. Thier shells are hard and that is wonderful, since this year, I was not able to house them outdoors. They are just entering thier second year, so rapid growth should occur at times and then slow, then pick up, then slow.....all torts grow at different rates, including ones kept in identicle settings and from the same species. I have had them about a year, but it has only been the last few months, that the amount they have grown has really struck me, so the doubling in ize has taken a year, with the last few months being ecspecially noticeable.

As for the correct amount of phosphorus, I feed grated winter squash, parsnips, blossoms, berries, mushrooms, grapes, rarely banana, papaya, lettuces found in the spring mix, and sweet potato, so I'm sure they are getting plenty.

I was under the impression that TNT and Repashy are high in calcium due to the plants used in the supplement, ot because of additional calcium added to those mixes. I will do some more research and possibly cut back to just my twice weekly vitamin and calcium with D3 regime'. I offer the additional vitamins and D3 to fill in the gaps and I use bee pollen because it nearly a complete food, high in vegetable protein and may or may not enhance color, which is more for the uromastyx than the burmese blacks...lol I also use vitamin supplements designed for amphibians that are very sensitive to over supplementation, thus reducing the risk of overdoing it. IMO, we can consider grocery greens to be as nutrient dense as thay should be, when they have been grown in cultivated soil that may get NKP fertilizers, but is likely depleted in calcium and micronutrients. I think montane and forest torts are more suceptible to oversupplementation and wouldbe the most adversley affected by oversupplementation, but in the last week, I haven't notice any ill affects from my current regime', though it would probably take a bit longer to show cause for alarm. I heed your advice and will do some math and try to establish how much of what they are getting at my current dosage and what amount is the actual target for day to day life and healthy growth, but it is still speculation, based on what information is out there and how I interpert it.






Supplementation is usually intended to 'fill in' where the diet is deficient. If the diet is OK, then supplementation is usually light and offered more as insurance.

Since both Repashy and TNT are calcium and vitamin supplements, you seem to be offering a high-calcium diet, plus a calcium/vitamin supplement, plus a calcium/vitamin supplement, plus calcium and vitamin supplements.

Have you run any sort of analysis to make sure they are getting enough phosphorous? They need phosphorous as well to help balance the calcium or the bones get too brittle. There is also a real risk of too much of other nutrients- for example, excess calcium inhibits iron absorption and tortoises need their iron.

I would also be interested in your thoughts about bee pollen as an additive for tortoises- I am not sure I understand the benefits of this.

Your comment that your torts have about doubled in size in a few months makes me a bit nervous. It suggests that they may be growing more rapidly than normal, which has certain long-term health connotations.
[/quote]

 

[Madkins007]

BigTorts- As long as you are not just doing what so many people have done and just dump stuff in there thinking that if some is good, more is better, I', happy... not that my stamp of approval means much!

 

[biglove4bigtorts]

Nope, I use small pinches of calcium/vitamins/or calcium with D3 mixed with TNT and Repashy and some bee pollen. It is a teaspoonfull per cup or so...then that is sprinkled as a pinch or two onto the daily food, so I think that is a moderate amount. I see not much difference between doing that and offering Mazuri, as I see Mazuri as mostly fillers and actually a poor representation of a natural diet. It may have the nutrients tortoises need to grow and live a healthy life, but it is mostly indigestible fillers and grains. It can't be as healthy as fresh fruits and vegetables. I think I could reduce my amount of supplementation, but I also think it is harmless at its current rate. I am going to consult Vic Morgan and Yvonnes and see what they have to say...I believe Yvonne does not supplement her adults, but I'm not sure....both of these keepers should have some species-specific advice and I am going to do my mathmatical breakdown this weekend and try to come up with a safe regime' that provides what the tortoises need, without crossing the line to oversupplementation.

 

[Livingstone]

Madkins007, thanks for the feedback. I dont have a measured reason for the calcium. Mostly I use it daily because it has the D3 which an indoor tort lacks. I also dont know if you read that I abstain from any supplements 2 days a week (sat and sun). The reason why Im not concerned is because livingstone is not passing urates with any frequency. If I saw a rise in urates on a day to day basis I would reduce the calcium. I "assume" that because I dont see any urates that her body is absorbing the calcium, rather than pushing it out.

This may seem like a very unscientific approach, but I dont feed things that prevent calcium intake. No blockers. I can see where feeding a tort a diet high in oxalic acid with plants like chard, etc could be a problem because it would cause stones to develop due to the added calcium delivered in supplements binding and causing calcium oxalate that isnt absorbable. So your point is dually noted.

The other thing I do is I feed maxuri in a VERY wet form ensuring that the animal is not dehydrated, this coupled with daily 15 minute soaks in warm water. The mazuri feeding strategy that I have adopted is one that I think differentiates me from other keepers. I use boiling water to break down the mazuri prior to feeding, the excess water is also drained off leaving a wet soggy mass. I know that in doing this I am reducing the potency of whats in the mazuri, for all intensive purpose the mazuri serves as a water delivery system, with a small amount of protein.

Not trying to be funny, but when it comes to Livingstone Im not fooling around. She probably eats better than I do.

 

[kelarned]

I don't have any research data on Ca or other supplements to add, but I have a couple thoughts and questions.

BTW, very interesting thread...Thanks TOM.

I have read numerous research articles (for humans) that suggest that most vitamin supplements aren't necessary and really only give a placebo effect for those looking to feel better.

I personally feel that adding a daily vitamin to an already complete diet, will only give you expensive urine.

I wonder if this is true for the torts, without the added placebo effect.

I have kept and breed various types of reptiles for 12 plus years, but I am still relatively new to torts and their specific needs.

I have found that it is very challenging to provide a well balanced diet to captive animals, without using some supplements. That being said, I have also found it very challenging to keep a large variety of greens around due to shelf life in the fridge. I don't have the ability to grow them myself right now and all too often they go bad (2 weeks) before I can use them all. My 3 leos (3 months) just can't get through it all and I end up having to throw so much away.

Recently, I have been buying 2-3 types with some spring mix. I rotate these every 2 weeks so that they are getting some variety. I really want to do what is best for the little guys, so I hope this is ok???

I have seen other threads talk about adding the vitamins and minerals into their soaking water. When they take a drink, I am assuming that they are getting vitamin enriched water. My kids used to take polyvitamin drops when they were 1-2 years old. I was wondering what you all think about using these drops in their water??? Don't know if this is good or not, but it seems like it is ok. Any thoughts???

I'm not sure if it will be necessary though, because along with the greens they do get both mazuri and grassland supplements throughout the week.

 

[Madkins007]

This is going to sound really odd, but I am in the middle of some research that is making me seriously rethink a lot of things I have said as recently as yesterday.

I've recently read an article on Improper Diet Cascade, about a whole slew of problems that affect birds because of improper ratios of nutrients, vitamins, and minerals- too many or too little, and the short- and long-term effects on everything from the lining of the intestinal walls, to the development of the eye, to the way the skin grows. THEN I read Andy Highfields most recent article on Spanish tortoises diet and it made me think a bit more.

Give me another week or so and I may have something useful to post on all of this- it needs more research and incubation.

Livingstone- one thing to keep in mind in a high-calcium diet is that calcium blocks iron intake. Isn't that a fun fact to make things just a bit more annoying?

 

[biglove4bigtorts]

We await your continued responses with bated breath and fingernails between our teeth! Kudos to you for continuing your research an maintaining an open mind...I take the same approach and helps us learn and apply the best practices for our cold-blooded charges.

Please see the responses I have in the Manouria area of the forums from Yvonne regarding supplements.

I am thinking of moving to a 4 day supplementation schedule. Everyday with TNT/Repashy, then Mon/Weds Calcium and bee pollen, Tuesday/Thurs Calcum with D3 and vitamins, and just the TNT/Repashy pn the weekends. Problem is storage space for easy doseing...I keep all of my stuff refrigerated for optimal shelf life and potency. I'll just buy a bunch of salt shakers from the dollar star and lable them witht he days of the week and the contents.

This is going to sound really odd, but I am in the middle of some research that is making me seriously rethink a lot of things I have said as recently as yesterday.

I've recently read an article on Improper Diet Cascade, about a whole slew of problems that affect birds because of improper ratios of nutrients, vitamins, and minerals- too many or too little, and the short- and long-term effects on everything from the lining of the intestinal walls, to the development of the eye, to the way the skin grows. THEN I read Andy Highfields most recent article on Spanish tortoises diet and it made me think a bit more.

Give me another week or so and I may have something useful to post on all of this- it needs more research and incubation.

Livingstone- one thing to keep in mind in a high-calcium diet is that calcium blocks iron intake. Isn't that a fun fact to make things just a bit more annoying?