How Much Calcium Is Really Necessary?

[ianedward1]

So the typical consensus about the calcium to phosphorus ratio is 2:1. Many if not all tortoise keepers (including myself) supplement their tort's meal with calcium supplements and multivitamins. Something that has been making me wonder lately, is how much added calcium is really necessary for the health of our beloved tortoises? I feed my Leopard a mix of Mustard Greens, Turnip Greens, Collard Greens, and ZooMed Grassland Tortoise Food. All of these items are above the standard 2:1 ratio (Collards can be as high as 15:1). So when we have this extreme amount of natural calcium in their diet, is it really the best idea to continue supplementing?

 

[RedfootsRule]

I LOVE LOVE LOVE that someone else is thinking this way...
My answer: NONE! I'm glad you did what I did; look at whats in the food we feed! Collard greens is something like 14.1:1, turnips around 4.2:1..If anything, what we food in captivity is WAYYY over the top in calcium. Honestly, if I could provide a diet LOWER in calcium, I think I would. I find it insane that people want to add even MORE calcium to it.
I've been noticing a trend...I watch carefully whenever I see a thread of a tort having stones. Every single one (that I have seen) the owner mentions the tort having a cuttlebone, and mentions that the tort gorged themself on it! Calcium can be a cause of stones...It is my firm belief all of these cases were caused by excessive calcium.
Personally, I think supplementation presents a real threat. Calcification of the organs or spine can all occur, and obviously stones. I think people just like to supplement because it makes them feel like they are going that extra mile...
So my answer is NO, it is not good to supplement to the degree that people do...
Some believe MBD tortoises are a tortoise that needs heavy supplementation. I disagree. The problem with the MBD part is...If the tortoise is already deficient from calcium, suddenly bombarding it with calcium will do little to nothing. Here is what will happen....The tortoise will take all the calcium it needs for daily metabolic functions, and then will start putting small amounts into bone stores...SLOWLY. They won't suddenly take 100 grams of it and pile it into their bones. If anything, whats going to happen is the excess calcium will be passed out in the urine, and might increase the threat of stones, and definitely increase the threat of over-calcification of organs...
Over-supplementation is no joke, and it seems to commonly occur. Its dangerous.
For a personal testament, I have not supplemented my torts for....6-7 years? No problems to yet present.
So, in ending, this has been my thought for years now. Unless it special cases, supplementation is not needed, and could present a threat...

 

[ianedward1]

I was REALLY hoping that someone that had not supplemented that torts would answer to this. I mean humans can get stones from eating dairy products so why would tortoises be any less capable in building up stones from large calcium sources. Yes, I believe that multivitamins or supplemented pellet diets are good to add many different vitamins and minerals that we are not providing should be used. I just feel like calcium gets over done with tortoises. It's not like they are eating Crickets with a 1:20 ratio like Bearded Dragons

 

[RedfootsRule]

I was REALLY hoping that someone that had not supplemented that torts would answer to this. I mean humans can get stones from eating dairy products so why would tortoises be any less capable in building up stones from large calcium sources. Yes, I believe that multivitamins or supplemented pellet diets are good to add many different vitamins and minerals that we are not providing should be used. I just feel like calcium gets over done with tortoises. It's not like they are eating Crickets with a 1:20 ratio like Bearded Dragons

True, true, true and true .

 

[wellington]

How do you feel about D3? Don't give any? Also what about vitamins? None of that either? I know A certain someone told me about a pinch a month should be enough of The calcium and D3, or not to use the D3 at all if my tort gets outside in the warm months. I do give some, about a sprinkle or spritz a couple times a month. However, he usually won't eat the food, so I have to spritz with water, which probably washes the calcium off more then dilute it. Now, what about the tortoises that naturally graze on grasses, weeds, and hays and don't get the grocery greens?

 

[RedfootsRule]

How do you feel about D3? Don't give any? Also what about vitamins? None of that either? I know A certain someone told me about a pinch a month should be enough of The calcium and D3, or not to use the D3 at all if my tort gets outside in the warm months. I do give some, about a sprinkle or spritz a couple times a month. However, he usually won't eat the food, so I have to spritz with water, which probably washes the calcium off more then dilute it. Now, what about the tortoises that naturally graze on grasses, weeds, and hays and don't get the grocery greens?

D3....I don't give any. Now, I guess if your keeping your tort inside, it could be offered in moderation once every week or two. But the fact is, it is completely un-needed. If the tort is kept inside, it needs UV bulbs to survive...And it will make for itself all the D3 it needs from UV. Only an hour or two of UV light per day is required to fulfill this, so there really is no room nor need for excess. So, personally, I don't use d3, and see no reason for it. Furthermore, I have seen no literature on this, but I think it would be foolish to think excess d3 might not be harmful as well...Or perhaps it just goes out through the urine. Just a thought of mine.
Vitamins are a different story...What kind of vitamins? The TNT supplements that are just chopped herbs? Sure, its good stuff and it is beneficial to add...Liquid vitamins? Maybe not so much. Now, of course, it can be added every 2 weeks or so with possible benefit, buy beyond that, I don't think its very needed. Me and Tom I believe had this argument...Some products I suppose can be beneficial.
So, for liquid vitamins, I would say once every two weeks should be plenty, and might have a little benefit (although I don't use any).

And that is actually a good question you raise; one I've been contemplating myself. Admittedly, I've never seen the calcium/phosphorous ratios of grass and weeds that torts such as sulcatas and leopards it...So thats a hard question. I would assume they are more then sufficient, but I could't say for sure. I hope someone can come forward with that information.

Something else I just thought of...Excess calcium can also interfere with the absorption of minerals and fatty acids. Yet another problem with excess calcium...

 

[ianedward1]

As I stated, I do use multivitamins and pellets to provide extra nutrients. Also, the natural Ca : P ratios from the grasses found in the areas of the Leopard Tortoise (If I remember this correctly) are about a 3-4 : 1 ratio. I have seen many different statements saying that D3 can't be absorbed orally as well so that would mean that the D3 that your torts are currently getting is that they makes themselves under UVB bulbs

 

[wellington]

I have read many times and Tom has said it too, that too much supplemented D3 can be very bad. In fact that's the one right thing the breeder of my tort did say. Tom and She both said not needed. It's also true with many other reptiles. I do have the TNT I use. I also have a calcium powder with D3. But I also have a spray, without D3. (The D3 was a purchase before the tort-getting prepared-bad info-then found TFO) He (Leo) also has a cuttle bone, but barely chews on it. I have always wondered if the cuttle bone is a better idea, as they can choose to eat it or not, as they felt they needed. I guess though if you have a tort that eats it like its candy, then maybe not for that tort. Seeing my Leo wont eat his food with the calD3 on it, I will eliminate all together. He does get about 7 months of sun and mvb. Will be interesting to see others comments. Hopefully, everyone will keep it on subject and no more mud slinging

 

[RedfootsRule]

I have read many times and Tom has said it too, that too much supplemented D3 can be very bad. In fact that's the one right thing the breeder of my tort did say. Tom and She both said not needed. It's also true with many other reptiles. I do have the TNT I use. I also have a calcium powder with D3. But I also have a spray, without D3. (The D3 was a purchase before the tort-getting prepared-bad info-then found TFO) He (Leo) also has a cuttle bone, but barely chews on it. I have always wondered if the cuttle bone is a better idea, as they can choose to eat it or not, as they felt they needed. I guess though if you have a tort that eats it like its candy, then maybe not for that tort. Seeing my Leo wont eat his food with the calD3 on it, I will eliminate all together. He does get about 7 months of sun and mvb. Will be interesting to see others comments. Hopefully, everyone will keep it on subject and no more mud slinging

I've HEARD of many things where people say to much d3 is the devil, but seen no definitive literature with proof of WHY. I believe it certainly does do some form of harm, but I don't take it upon myself to supply it as any sort of guarantee. I've never seen any literature detailing any ways or reasons its harmful. But I still believe its completely un-needed...I don't even know of any proof that d3 that is FED to them can even be digested into the same property. I studied the whole process of UV, D3 and everything...There is such a lengthy chemical process it goes through after the UV initially hits the chemical in skin cells, it would be very hard to explain here. But I somehow have extreme doubts it even can.
The only thing I've ever given is a cuttlebone (only a few times have I). But yes, you must watch that they don't go at it like candy, like some torts do.
A thread I'm in that three is no mud-slinging and it stays on topic....You have said my dreams, man .

 

[ianedward1]

My Leopard doesn't like his food too have a calcium w/ D3 on it but if i grind a cuttlebone on it, he has no problem. He doesn't touch a cuttlebone placed in his enclosure though. I just worry that we may be over supplementing our torts and causing more problems than solving. Plus, tortoises have been getting along quite well for millions of years without us providing them with vitamins. As long as we can give them the proper lighting and diet, why should they be unhealthy? Mine seems to do perfectly fine under a PowerSun eating Orchard Grass, ZooMed Pellets, and Collard Greens.

 

[RedfootsRule]

My Leopard doesn't like his food too have a calcium w/ D3 on it but if i grind a cuttlebone on it, he has no problem. He doesn't touch a cuttlebone placed in his enclosure though. I just worry that we may be over supplementing our torts and causing more problems than solving. Plus, tortoises have been getting along quite well for millions of years without us providing them with vitamins. As long as we can give them the proper lighting and diet, why should they be unhealthy? Mine seems to do perfectly fine under a PowerSun eating Orchard Grass, ZooMed Pellets, and Collard Greens.

The only problem with that is, the things eaten in the wild and in captivity are, with almost all species, vastly different. I have no knowledge as to the nutrient differences, of mineral differences, but it IS quite different, unfortunately.
I think sometimes people over-complicate tortoise-keeping a little bit. Yet, I still love it. It is our hobby, and we get as deep down into it as we can. The way I see it, there are 3 classes: "My tortoise survives and seems healthy", "I provide me tortoise with a large variety of foods, with the most nutritious picks", and "I feed my tortoise the most close wild-resembling diet as possible, follow strict husbandry methods, and do a weekly fecal exam on all species" A.K.A the experts. Sure, your tort can survive just fine on a pretty limited diet. But for many (including me), thats not enough. We want the healthiest tortoise we can; we want tortoises as healthy as the wild ones. Everyone has a different view of it.
But regardless, calcium really isn't needed.

 

[ianedward1]

Wild tortoises though aren't necessarily the healthiest, though they show that they have found what they need to survive in the are that they live. I provide dry grasses for my Leopard to eat, just like he would encounter in eastern Africa areas. No they are not the same species, and not grown in the same soils. The addition of "wet greens" (collards, mustards, turnips) helps with the calcium difference that those grasses are missing.

 

[Tom]

This depends on a lot a factors. Diet, UV lighting, access to sunshine (how much, how often, what season, what latitude), indoor or outdoor housing, age, species, sex, etc...

I think mature, egg laying females need some supplementation. I think adult males living outdoors and eating a good diet don't.

I think the giant species need more than the Testudo species.

I think that the small amount of D3 that is used in reptile calcium supplements would be hard to overdose with. Look up "D3 toxicity" to learn about the particulars of what it can do. Even if you used it every day, (which I wouldn't recommend) I don't think you could hit toxic levels.

The only research I have seen demonstrated that dietary D3 is not usable in green iguanas. Never seen a study of D3 in the blood levels of indoor tortoises with no UV source that are given dietary D3.

I think providing a calcium rich, balanced diet is a good goal, but the nutrient content of any plant is going to vary with the soil it is grown in. Some areas have calcium rich soil while other are deficient. Giving a pinch or two of calcium a week on a big ole pile o' greens is not going to cause an overdose, interfere with absorption of other nutrients, form stones, or cause any other harm. It WILL, however, insure that you don't run into a deficiency, as long as your tortoises diet is remotely suitable. Cheap insurance, in other words.

I don't think grocery store foods are a good way to feed any tortoise, although it will work and its not the end of the world. There are better alternatives in my opinion is all.

I agree with Peter's assessment of calcium deposition in and animal with MBD symptoms. MBD happens slowly over a long period of time. Having rehabbed many of these animals, I can attest that recovery takes an equally long time. Calcium does not move in and out of the bones quickly. I takes weeks or months of the entirely wrong combination of factors to move the calcium out of the bones, and it takes just as many weeks or months of the correct conditions to move it back in. Loading up a tortoise that suffers from MBD with a stomach full of calcium supplement everyday will not make it recover faster, and no amount of calcium in any form has ever brought a soft bellied hatchling back from the brink of death.

Just my opinions and observations here.

 

[Baoh]

Stones cannot be composed of calcium alone. The anion that complexes with it is the greater issue as it relates to precipitation (the act of which is the basis for a stone involving calcium). D3 is very well absorbed and is molecularly identical to D3 that is synthesized endogenously (within the body). While I like providing UVB because it allows the animal to self-regulate exposure and thusly self-regulate D3 synthesis, that also means the animal is able to self-regulate poorly and to a suboptimal end. It takes quite a bit of D3 in order to reach toxicity. I buy and administer Miner-All with D3. Over-supplementation is possible, but not especially likely unless one doses like a zealot or the product is incorrectly manufactured (which should not happen with a QC aspect in place). I have given some thought to adding K2 to positively augment the D3 utility, but I have not felt an express need to just yet (all of my animals are doing awesome, so I am hesitant to experiment right now, but maybe with some nonessential holdbacks in the future). The process of endogenous vitamin D synthesis is really not that intricate by the standards of biochemical complexity. I am attaching a slightly busy yet reasonably straightforward graphic that illustrates things in a compressed/simplified manner (again, by scientific standards).

It is easy to have success without supplementation (for typical animals; for the extremely fast growing, it may be more necessary if the vegetation they feed from is not grown in calcium-rich soil and/or sunlight exposure is not adequate). It is easy to have success with significant supplementation. There is always a bottleneck in any system that has rate-limiting components. I would not want mineral status to be a major bottleneck in animals which have so much calcium composing many of the structural aspects of their bodies.

 

[EKLC]

It's hard to simulate what a wild tortoise may encounter in his range, like dozens of species of grasses, forbs, and succulents, various poops, carcasses, etc. That's why I like products like TNT, over vitamin and mineral powders.

 

[ianedward1]

Just a small tid bit, remember to choose multivitamins that use Beta-Carotene instead of Vitamin A to help avoid toxic levels being built up

 

[RedfootsRule]

Tom,
That is something I failed to hit on. Animals like Greg's aldabras may need calcium, I mean just look how fast Tuff is growing . One must think a VERY large amount of calcium is needed to supply that growth.
It would also depend, I suppose, on the species of egg-laying female...Sulcatas that might lay 20-30 eggs, there is more calcium needed then a red foot. So I guess it does vary quite a bit through species. Age plays a role to, since as you said, the giant species grow very quickly, but the age they are dictates they're growth rate, thus the calcium needed....I'll have to research that d3 toxicity. I've just never seen anything one way or another.
Something I wonder a lot though....I see it commonly that "its all grown in different soils". Well, obviously it is, but think of the fact that, those places growing produce grow it in such massive numbers. I can only imagine they would need very fertile soil to achieve the production of these greens, am I right?
Cheap insurance is an interesting thought, and a pinch a week or two WON'T hurt them, I just don't feel it is necessary with the amounts of calcium in the foods we feed.

Baoh,
"Stones cannot be composed of calcium alone. The anion that complexes with it is the greater issue as it relates to precipitation (the act of which is the basis for a stone involving calcium)". Could you explain that statement a little more, possibly "dumb it down" a little? I can't quite get the gist of it...
It is absorbed? It seemed absurd to me it could be identical, or even similar to that synthesized endogenously, but I really have no background in this kind of stuff, so I didn't know for sure. The fact just seemed absurd to me.
Could you elaborate, also, on the K2 comment? What is it, and what would it do? I think several members here, including myself, would find it interesting.
In biochemical standards, its like baking a cake I'm sure. For ME, it is pretty darned complex . Or at least seems that way.
Thanks so much for the graphic illustration, I'll have to keep that. Very interesting stuff.....

 

[EKLC]

Something I wonder a lot though....I see it commonly that "its all grown in different soils". Well, obviously it is, but think of the fact that, those places growing in produce it in massive numbers. I can only imagine they would need somewhat fertile soil to achieve the production of these greens, am I right?

The calcium content of some some soils is much higher, and fertilization doesn't address that. For instance the sandy soil here in Florida probably holds a lot less calcium than some clay soils in africa

 

[mainey34]

Well, a topic i have to agree with peter on. Many of the greens i feed my 2 torts are calcium enriched. Therefore i do not see the need to add extra calcium to their diet. But i too add Miner-all. For the minerals....As for the "mud slinging" comment Barb i dont think that was called for unless you were egging it on.
I believe k2 has something to do with:

Maintaining bone mineralization

 

[RedfootsRule]

Something I wonder a lot though....I see it commonly that "its all grown in different soils". Well, obviously it is, but think of the fact that, those places growing in produce it in massive numbers. I can only imagine they would need somewhat fertile soil to achieve the production of these greens, am I right?

The calcium content of some some soils is much higher, and fertilization doesn't address that. For instance the sandy soil here in Florida probably holds a lot less calcium than some clay soils in africa

Honestly, some of the sand in florida soils is actually calcium sand. There are many places very high in calcium in Florida. But most leafy green produce is not grown in Florida.