How is my Russian enclosure?

imnicholasewald

New Member
Joined
Oct 18, 2016
Messages
6
Location (City and/or State)
Grand Rapids, MI
Hey everyone!

This is my first post. New to the tortoise forum and really excited to continue to learn!

A little bit of background information: my wife and I recently rescued little Keeko. She was brought back from an owner with good intentions but bad practice. Unfortunately she was fed every day with mustard greens and nothing else for nearly the entire first year of her life. She now has some pyramiding, but thankfully is not too noticeable.

Prior to adopting Keeko we did roughly 40-50 hours of intense research. We wanted to commit to a life time of good stewardship and care giving. Keeko seems very happy and content with us. We soak her three times a week and feed her a varied diet of greens, tortoise pellets, cucumber (for water), weeds and flowers. For substrate we give a generous amount of coco fiber and repti bark. We keep the habitat very dry. Usually 40-50. Temperature levels are pretty even keeled. 88-90 on the warm side and 65-70 on the cool with an ambient room temperature of 64-69 degrees depending on the season (We live in Michigan).

Being a yearling and a Russian tortoise we try our best to pay attention to excercise, humidity, temps, and diet. Keeko lives in the toy box enclosure during the day and basks for about 8-10 hours under the UVB bulb and heat lamp. I believe the bulb we purchased was the entry level 150W bulb from pet smart. Unsure though, I am sort of spitballing a number there. It seems to be bright and close to her when she basks.

When she is NOT basking we allow her to roam the house freely. She gets a lot of excercise because we leave very *small* amounts of veggies spread throughout the floor. It keeps her busy chasing greens and moving a lot.

Obviously we watch her feeding, this isn't an overfeeding concern. It just keeps her moving.

My question is this: Knowing that she is out of her "bedroom" so to speak for most of her day, is the size of this enclosure okay? Keep in mind, it is JUST for sleeping/basking. We don't leave her there for extremely long periods of time.

Measurements are as follows:

3' 6" long
2' wide
1' 6" tall

(Measurements are approximations)

Thanks in advance for reading, we are excited to hear some feedback!

Nick

IMG_0297.JPG IMG_0298.JPG IMG_0299.JPG
 

Yvonne G

Old Timer
TFO Admin
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 23, 2008
Messages
93,389
Location (City and/or State)
Clovis, CA
Hi Nick, and welcome to the Forum!

I love that Keeko has his own artwork on the wall! I'll address a couple things that I notice.

First of all - a very bad idea to allow a tortoise to roam around the house, even if confined to one part of the house. It just isn't warm enough on the floor for a tortoise. He needs to know the boundaries of his own habitat and to NOT know that there is a big, wide, wonderful world outside those boundaries. Once he's been allowed to know there's more to the world than his territory, he'll never be satisfied ever again to be kept inside those walls.

The second thing I notice is that dual fixture light. I don't like those at all. I like to have my UVB light in the middle of the habitat, and some sort of heat only (no light) on the end where the hiding place is. You can't cover the whole habitat with a dual fixture. Besides that, the bell isn't big enough to allow the excess heat a UVB light produces to dissipate.

Keeko lives in a very eye pleasing habitat. I really like what you've made for him. It won't be too much longer until he'll need bigger quarters.
 

Gillian M

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Aug 28, 2014
Messages
15,417
Location (City and/or State)
Jordan
A nice enclosure - something original. :)

Any pics of Keeko?

And a very warm welcome to the forum! :tort:
 

imnicholasewald

New Member
Joined
Oct 18, 2016
Messages
6
Location (City and/or State)
Grand Rapids, MI
I will definitely check into the bulb thing. We bought a longer more bright bulb and it needs to be installed.

Regarding the free roaming bit, I am not sure that I agree with the temperature part. Don't most tortoises experience temperatures in the 60's during the evenings? That's what we are trying to emulate. I see your point about the restlessness. She doesn't seem to be showing it but I'll keep an eye out for that. A reputable breeder in the area let's hers free roam and they seem to be doing well. She has had a breeding pair for 7 years in her house doing just that.

Thanks for the warm welcome and the advice! Good food for thought. Definitely will consider making some changes very soon.
 

JoesMum

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Oct 26, 2011
Messages
21,606
Location (City and/or State)
Kent, South East England
You really shouldn't let your tort run around the room. Just because a breeder does it, doesn't make it right.

Out of its enclosure, your tort is away from the heat, humidity and UVB that is necessary for your tort to be healthy indoors.

There is also a risk of it being stepped on. We had one on TFO only last week - you only have to be distracted for a moment.

And another risk is that your tort will eat something it shouldn't either deliberately or by accident. Dust balls and hair can cause digestive system blockages for example.

Your tort will be much happier and healthier in a proper sized enclosure with heat, light and humidity at the correct levels.
 

imnicholasewald

New Member
Joined
Oct 18, 2016
Messages
6
Location (City and/or State)
Grand Rapids, MI
You can see in the first pic her shell has some damage. Not sure where this came from, but she had it when we got her. Does she look okay?
 

imnicholasewald

New Member
Joined
Oct 18, 2016
Messages
6
Location (City and/or State)
Grand Rapids, MI
I think in order to accommodate the suggestions everyone is making we may create a shallow ladder and add a second toy box so she has more room to explore. As far as the open world mentality goes, she seems to forget what is outside her box really quickly. I have a theory: I think the extremely high walls of the box are contributing to this. Her former enclosure was much more shallow and she was a lot more restless inside of it. I also dig her burrow and log at an angle. The burrow goes about 6" deep inside the box and is fairly damp.
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
63,264
Location (City and/or State)
Southern California
Hello and welcome.

Many of us here have been keeping tortoises for a long time. We've seen first hand the things that can go wrong and we've seen many many examples of things that typically go wrong. We are likely going to share info and advice with you that might contradict what your 40-50 hours of research has shown you. We ask for you to keep and open mind and realize we are not selling anything. Our only interest is the health and well-being of your tortoise and the hope that you have a positive tortoise keeping experience. I am known for being blunt and failing at my attempts at sugar coating, but my intentions are good…

So here goes:
1. Research. How do any of us do this anymore. We used to read books. Guess what? The old books had a lot of thing wrong and were based on incorrect assumption. Nowadays we read stuff we find on the internet. But who wrote it? What do they know? How did they learn what they proclaim? How many people have tested their theories and what were the results? None of this is explained on the typical website. How does the new keeper know who to listen to? 20 minutes of reading the right stuff will do you a lot more good than reading 50 hours of the wrong stuff, or mixed stuff.
2. Pyramiding. Pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry. Dry substrate and an open top pretty much guarantee your humidity is too low. Those stick-on dial type thermometer/hygrometers are notoriously inaccurate and unreliable.
3. Tortoises that roam the house frequently end up dead or injured. My career and my wife's career put me in touch with dozens of veterinarians. Many are friends who I travel the world with or share my table with on holidays. All of them know of my obsession with all things tortoise and they share with me all their tortoise cases either in phone calls or when I visit in person. I have seen tortoises roaming loose get kicked, stepped on, poisoned, mauled by other pets, eat all sorts of things and get impacted, have their heads smashed in doors, get lost, get cut in half after climbing into the works of a reclining chair, get respiratory infections from being away from their heat source, electrocuted by wires, lose limbs from carpet fiber or hair encircling their legs and cutting off circulation, etc… The list goes on and on, but I'm sure you get the idea. Tortoises belong in enclosures that are designed and maintained with their needs in mind. Every single person who had one of these bad things happen was sure everything was safe, said that they supervised and watched very closely, claimed to have "tortoise-proofed" their house, and none of them thought anything bad would happen.
4. I've been a student of the school of hard knocks since the 70's. I've made a lot of tortoises keeping mistakes and learned a lot about what works and what doesn't over those decades. I still have more to learn, but I've compiled some of the info that I've learned into these threads so that, hopefully, you don't have to learn the hard way, as I did.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/russian-tortoise-care-sheet.80698/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/

I hope this doesn't come across as condescending, insulting, belittling, or any other way other than how it is intended. It is intended to be helpful, and that is all. :)
 

imnicholasewald

New Member
Joined
Oct 18, 2016
Messages
6
Location (City and/or State)
Grand Rapids, MI
Hey Tom,

Thanks for the warm welcome, I appreciate it!

You aren't being condescending. I just think that the information we are getting is conflicting..

How is a desert tortoise suppose to thrive in a humid environment? We (my wife and I) soak her three times/week in addition to misting and keeping sphagnum moss in her burrow and around the habitat.

We don't rely on our thermometer for incredibly accurate monitoring for temps and humidity. We try to keep it *generally* hovering around 40-50 with a temp of about 85-90 consistently. I am not the sort of person who likes to poke around and focus on the "last ten percent" if you will of tortoise keeping. If we are generally doing most major things right then we are not super concerned if our temperature is 3 degrees off.

I understand if you think that I am wrong about this and i'm open to suggestions to improve it! Obviously you guys are the experts, otherwise we would not have come here in the first place. Seriously, we really appreciate it!

:)

I see what you are saying concerning pyramiding and I have read your "end of pyramiding" thread. Please just keep in mind that we are not your average PetsMart buyer. We want to be responsible "parents." That being said, just because our enclosure looks "cute" doesn't mean we didn't focus on essentials.
Totally open to advice, but please understand that most forums are full of people who are really anxious to be judgey and handout advice specific to their own life experience. We just want to major in the majors and minor in the minors.

That being said..

Really appreciate that advice in its entirety. We will do what we can to keep the humidity up and her shell moist and warm. Any suggestions for our habitat?
We will keep her inside unless totally supervised. Thanks for the words of wisdom. We will definitely keep her inside the habitat now.
 

stillbeachin

New Member
Joined
Oct 24, 2016
Messages
1
Hello and welcome.

Many of us here have been keeping tortoises for a long time. We've seen first hand the things that can go wrong and we've seen many many examples of things that typically go wrong. We are likely going to share info and advice with you that might contradict what your 40-50 hours of research has shown you. We ask for you to keep and open mind and realize we are not selling anything. Our only interest is the health and well-being of your tortoise and the hope that you have a positive tortoise keeping experience. I am known for being blunt and failing at my attempts at sugar coating, but my intentions are good…

So here goes:
1. Research. How do any of us do this anymore. We used to read books. Guess what? The old books had a lot of thing wrong and were based on incorrect assumption. Nowadays we read stuff we find on the internet. But who wrote it? What do they know? How did they learn what they proclaim? How many people have tested their theories and what were the results? None of this is explained on the typical website. How does the new keeper know who to listen to? 20 minutes of reading the right stuff will do you a lot more good than reading 50 hours of the wrong stuff, or mixed stuff.
2. Pyramiding. Pyramiding is caused by growth in conditions that are too dry. Dry substrate and an open top pretty much guarantee your humidity is too low. Those stick-on dial type thermometer/hygrometers are notoriously inaccurate and unreliable.
3. Tortoises that roam the house frequently end up dead or injured. My career and my wife's career put me in touch with dozens of veterinarians. Many are friends who I travel the world with or share my table with on holidays. All of them know of my obsession with all things tortoise and they share with me all their tortoise cases either in phone calls or when I visit in person. I have seen tortoises roaming loose get kicked, stepped on, poisoned, mauled by other pets, eat all sorts of things and get impacted, have their heads smashed in doors, get lost, get cut in half after climbing into the works of a reclining chair, get respiratory infections from being away from their heat source, electrocuted by wires, lose limbs from carpet fiber or hair encircling their legs and cutting off circulation, etc… The list goes on and on, but I'm sure you get the idea. Tortoises belong in enclosures that are designed and maintained with their needs in mind. Every single person who had one of these bad things happen was sure everything was safe, said that they supervised and watched very closely, claimed to have "tortoise-proofed" their house, and none of them thought anything bad would happen.
4. I've been a student of the school of hard knocks since the 70's. I've made a lot of tortoises keeping mistakes and learned a lot about what works and what doesn't over those decades. I still have more to learn, but I've compiled some of the info that I've learned into these threads so that, hopefully, you don't have to learn the hard way, as I did.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/russian-tortoise-care-sheet.80698/
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/

I hope this doesn't come across as condescending, insulting, belittling, or any other way other than how it is intended. It is intended to be helpful, and that is all. :)

thanks for all this info. i have interited blkjkknhrt's tortoise and have read a lot in two weeks but this from other tortoise people invaluable. paul's had munster for three years and he certainly has some pyramiding probably from being in an open dry enclosure.
 

Mr Buster

Active Member
Joined
Oct 15, 2016
Messages
141
Location (City and/or State)
Reno NV
Don't use coil bulbs or duel bulbs. Those coil uvb bulbs have a history of causing site and blindness- go with a single mercury bulb instead it give heat and the uv- expensive though. Good job though keeping the bulbs on one end of the cage and not in the center. Reptiles adjust their body temperatures by moving to cooler or hotter spaces, unlike us whose bodie sweat etc, theirs do not. I like your crib.
 

Alex Z

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Sep 15, 2016
Messages
794
Location (City and/or State)
NYC
Hey everyone!

This is my first post. New to the tortoise forum and really excited to continue to learn!

A little bit of background information: my wife and I recently rescued little Keeko. She was brought back from an owner with good intentions but bad practice. Unfortunately she was fed every day with mustard greens and nothing else for nearly the entire first year of her life. She now has some pyramiding, but thankfully is not too noticeable.

Prior to adopting Keeko we did roughly 40-50 hours of intense research. We wanted to commit to a life time of good stewardship and care giving. Keeko seems very happy and content with us. We soak her three times a week and feed her a varied diet of greens, tortoise pellets, cucumber (for water), weeds and flowers. For substrate we give a generous amount of coco fiber and repti bark. We keep the habitat very dry. Usually 40-50. Temperature levels are pretty even keeled. 88-90 on the warm side and 65-70 on the cool with an ambient room temperature of 64-69 degrees depending on the season (We live in Michigan).

Being a yearling and a Russian tortoise we try our best to pay attention to excercise, humidity, temps, and diet. Keeko lives in the toy box enclosure during the day and basks for about 8-10 hours under the UVB bulb and heat lamp. I believe the bulb we purchased was the entry level 150W bulb from pet smart. Unsure though, I am sort of spitballing a number there. It seems to be bright and close to her when she basks.

When she is NOT basking we allow her to roam the house freely. She gets a lot of excercise because we leave very *small* amounts of veggies spread throughout the floor. It keeps her busy chasing greens and moving a lot.

Obviously we watch her feeding, this isn't an overfeeding concern. It just keeps her moving.

My question is this: Knowing that she is out of her "bedroom" so to speak for most of her day, is the size of this enclosure okay? Keep in mind, it is JUST for sleeping/basking. We don't leave her there for extremely long periods of time.

Measurements are as follows:

3' 6" long
2' wide
1' 6" tall

(Measurements are approximations)

Thanks in advance for reading, we are excited to hear some feedback!

Nick

View attachment 189858 View attachment 189859 View attachment 189860


Hey Nick and welcome!! That is a classy enclosure...you should start thinking big if you have the space..at minimum, build her a new home from plywood. You can from your local hardware store. Max size should be 6ftx6ft...if not minimum 5x3..about 4in deep of substrate with 16in high walls...
 

New Posts

Top