How do I know if my Russians are fighting?

akbecker

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First, I have four tortoises - 1 juvenile leopard in her own enclosure, and then 3 other species of adult tortoises in another much larger enclosure. Regrettably, I think I have 1 female Greek, and then 1 male Russian and 1 female Russian all together. I bought the female Greek at Petsmart (before I knew better) and she was labeled as a Russian. Then I adopted a female and a male from a local rescue, Colorado Reptile Humane Society, and when I saw all three next to each other, I realized the one from Petsmart had to be a Greek. I can post pictures this weekend, but there really isn't mistaking her for a Russian now that I know how to properly identify them. I also feel pretty certain about the sexes too.

So - I've read the debates, and I clearly understand the risks of keeping different species together; however, I would like to note that the three are living together, and have been since last Spring. My issue isn't with the Greek, its actually between the two Russians. I've caught them twice now fighting, I think. Once, when I first brought the Russians out of hibernation (using refrigeration), the female rammed the male when I was soaking them, but once I put them in their large enclosure indoors (until I can put them out for summer), they haven't really messed with each other. Then, last weekend I stuck them in the outdoor enclosure during the day since it was like 80, and almost immediately the male seemed to be herding the female Russian, ramming her, nipping at her, and then finally mounting her. After awhile when I came back, they had separated and he had buried himself and she was eating. I check over all three each week during their soakings - and aside from the occasional shed on their front legs, I don't see any abrasions or wounds.

My concern is whether this is Spring frisky behavior, and ok if both are still eating, and appear to be ok - OR is this the fighting that people often talk about, and will require separation?

Lastly, I would like some additional input on the Greek-Russian thing. I was going to keep them separate after hibernation, and I put two book cases side by side and put the Russians in one, and the Greek in the other. But the Greek spent all her time trying to, at the time what I thought, was escaping. But she only tried to get into the other enclosure with the Russians, and finally succeeded on two occasions. So, I built a ramp and now they all 3 go back and forth and the Greek doesn't try to climb walls anymore... Thoughts? Just a note - they had identical set-ups, so it didn't appear she just wanted a more well lit area or warmer basking spot. Although, oddly, the Greek almost never hangs out with the Russians. The Russians will share their hides in both the indoor and outdoor enclosures, but the Greek always finds her own... They don't eat together - I usually feed at two different "plates," and again the Russians will eat at the same place, but the Greek doesn't.... And they seem to steer clear of each other when they do see each other out and about in the enclosures.

Sorry this was so long!
 

Yvonne G

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It might be that the Greek tortoise is feeling it is safer for her in numbers.

The fighting you saw was breeding. The male has to subdue the female before he's allowed to mount. When he subdues, this involves plenty of biting, ramming, circling, etc. It can get bloody.
 

akbecker

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It might be that the Greek tortoise is feeling it is safer for her in numbers.

The fighting you saw was breeding. The male has to subdue the female before he's allowed to mount. When he subdues, this involves plenty of biting, ramming, circling, etc. It can get bloody.

Yeah - I thought they were breeding. I guess that's part of my concern - a) do I need to separate them if she gets hurt, or will they just play it out, and b) I don't want babies so if she happens to breed, is there something I can do with the eggs? Or do people who don't want to breed just not keep opposite sexes together?
 

ascott

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Why did you obtain a male and a female and place in the same enclosure if you do not want eggs? This is an easy fix, don't house them together. Also, the male will continually ram, bit, chase, stress and mount the female without rest for her--so you have a female that is highly stressed and being mounted---potential end result, ailing egg bound female...you essentially are housing a pair of russians with a greek trying to run and stay clear of the two more assertive tortoise...likely the greek is stressed as well, especially if you say they avoid one another....

I believe you will now need three individual enclosures for the torts in your care....
 

Yvonne G

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It's totally a personal choice...re-home one of them...set them up separately...allow breeding then squash the eggs...It's up to whatever you want to do with your tortoises.
 

akbecker

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Why did you obtain a male and a female and place in the same enclosure if you do not want eggs? This is an easy fix, don't house them together. Also, the male will continually ram, bit, chase, stress and mount the female without rest for her--so you have a female that is highly stressed and being mounted---potential end result, ailing egg bound female...you essentially are housing a pair of russians with a greek trying to run and stay clear of the two more assertive tortoise...likely the greek is stressed as well, especially if you say they avoid one another....

I believe you will now need three individual enclosures for the torts in your care....

Aside from the multiple inconsistent sources in this forum alone, let alone all the dedicated websites - its really hard to understand, even after a mountain of research, whether keeping multiple tortoises, even all Russians together, is that dangerous. I was under impression that given a large enough enclosure with sight barriers, that its ok to house one male and 2 or 3 female Russians - which was my intent - I just got thrown off by the Petsmart mislabeling, I didn't think they would mislabel animals, my bad. I was also under the impression given a large enough enclosure, if I could help a humane society out by taking 2 Russians, that would be a good thing. So, I'm note purposely trying to stress or harm my tortoises, I came to this forum for help. Your advice is to split all three up. Fine - I can do that, what is your advice as to the odd Greek behavior that didn't stop trying to escape into the other enclosure to be with the "more assertive tortoise" and since being with them doesn't try to climb the walls?
 

Saleama

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Your set up is fine if, as you say it is large with plenty of site barriers. As for the egg laying. Unless you catch her at it there is little you can do. They are experts at hiding nesting sites. If you see your female start to act agressivly towards and mount the other two, it means she is trying to lay and that is her way of telling the others to stop messing with her. It is NOT bulling or aggression for aggressions sake, it is what they do to survive and as Yvonne said, it can get bloody and it is natural. If you see her act that way you can seperate her and have a better chance at recovering and destroying any eggs she lays. Although, baby cb russians are highly sought after and you could get $200+ for them so you may want to reconsider.
 

ascott

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"it can get bloody and it is natural. If you see her act that way you can seperate her and have a better chance at recovering"

Biting at and ramming is part of the male russian behavior when wanting to mount the female....here is where it gets tricky....in a forced captive environment the female has little space to retreat fully and run away from the aggressive male, which can have adverse health issues...in the wild the female can escape the advances of the male by running off and has this as an option to work in her favor to help assure her safety...so, a bloodied female is not natural..unfortunately, it is all too common in a forced captive situation for the female to be highly stressed, where a person is less concerned about the welfare of the tort, in exchange for the potential "$200+" profit per tort.....

akbecker, please do accept my apology if anything I shared made you feel as though my intention was a negative one towards you---I simply spoke frankly to you... my intention nor feeling while sharing should have been heard while reading in any other way....just so you know..
 

ascott

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Oh, and my opinion on why the Greek was trying to climb the sides ;

He/she can smell the other torts on the other side, and;
It is absolutely a tortoise trait to get to the other side of a barrier...

Again, simply my opinion and in all actuality --there is no way anyone will ever "really" know why they do what they do.
 
M

Maggie Cummings

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Briefly from me as you have already received better advice then I would have given. (I was going to say that a black eye is how you tell they were fighting).
There are inconsistencies on this forum because we all have different ways we raise our tortoises and even tho there is a 'best' way or a 'right' way and a lot of us are very experienced, it's natural for people to do things different. We all try to give a standard 'care sheet' answer so as not to confuse the newbies, but it happens anyway. But remember, opinions are like ********, everybody has one. We are not professionals just tort keepers trying to help.
Also, you can smash the eggs during the first 24 hours after laying, but after that you kill an embryo...
I have numerous tortoises and turtles, but I don't breed so I simply don't mix sexes...that's the easy part.
 

akbecker

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Hello all - thank you for all the input and information. I've decided to separate the three into different enclosures. Thankfully I have a sister nearby with an unfinished backyard full of dandelions that is interested in tortoises, so I am going to help her build the perfect indoor and outdoor enclosures for the male and then separate my two females into different enclosures. Hopefully she won't be pregnant yet, but I'll keep a close eye. In the event that she does lay eggs, I'll look to find someone in Colorado that can help me care for them properly. I know hatchlings require very specific conditions to be healthy and I wouldn't want to harm them.

Plus, this way I get to keep the little guy in the family - he's super cute. He was an adoptee, and the saddest little case, which is why I chose him over the other males. His former owners abused him by painting his shell pink! and then drilling a small hole in the back of his shell so they could tether him to a tree so he wouldn't wander away! So sick! Anyway, he's got such a personality, I'd hate to lose him completely. Who knows, down the road I could get more room and be able to build him his own enclosures.

I'll watch the Greek closely, I'm more concerned in her effort to climb barriers to get to the other tortoise, she'll end up on her back for too long if she gets flipped over while going over a wall. Luckily, with such a tall shell she tends to flip to her side instead of completely upside down like the Russians, so she may just be adapt at rolling back over because I've never seen her upside down - just stuck vertically between furniture in the enclosure and the walls of the enclosure.

Thanks again!
 

Tom

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Some things that might help you decipher the conflicting info you spoke of:

About the mixing of species: There are those who have seen entire collections of tortoise literally wiped out by the practice, and there are those that haven't... yet. I used to think it was fine as long as they were behaviorally compatible and all captive bred and fecal checks were done. Then I learned that I was wrong. The hard way. What kind of learner are you? Can you learn from others mistakes, or do you have to make the mistakes yourself and suffer the consequences to learn?

About the wall climbing: What size enclosures are we talking about? In the wild tortoises would walk acres or miles during favorable weather. I will guess that your indoor enclosures are smaller than that. There are many reasons why your tortoise might have been determined to go that direction. What would have been interesting to me (too late now) would have been to swap the tortoises into each others enclosures and see what your greek did then. In other words, was your greek trying to get to the other tortoises, or was it trying to get to greener pastures, or was it just trying to go in that direction. They often just make up their mind that they want to go a certain direction and they do their best to over come any obstacle in their path. It might have had nothing to do with the other tortoises. It might have been trying to get back "home" after you moved her.

Here is what I would do in your situation:
1. Separate the greek. Give her her own enclosures indoors and out.
2. Separate your russians. You don't want babies, and pairs are not a good idea anyway.
3. If you want your russians to live together you should get a couple more females, quarantine all of them separately and do some fecal checks for at least two or three months, and then attempt to introduce them all into a large outdoor enclosure with all sorts of sight barriers, bushes and hiding places. Be aware that this is still a disease risk and an incompatibility risk and you might end up having to separate all of them anyway.

Alternatively, you could house the russians separately and introduce them for breeding periodically. So many of them are taken from the wild every year, it would sure be nice if you were captive breeding yours. I don't know why you don't want to, but perhaps someone near you could come pick up the eggs and incubate them for you. Captive breeding this species is very important, and I hate to see a great opportunity to do some good for the species passed up, but that is your choice.
 
M

Maggie Cummings

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Good deal. Hatchlings are super fun to have and not all that hard to care for if you research it. I don't breed myself, but I have head started many many hatchling Sulcata and Gopherus agassizii. It's so fun to have 12 babies at a time.
I personally would keep the male in one enclosure and the 2 females in another. I 'think' it's safe enough to keep 2 females together altho I know they are an aggressive species. I'm sure someone will correct me if I'm wrong...:)
 

Tom

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In the event that she does lay eggs, I'll look to find someone in Colorado that can help me care for them properly. I know hatchlings require very specific conditions to be healthy and I wouldn't want to harm them.

Babies are actually pretty simple and easy to care for. We (I) would be glad to help you through every step of the process, if you decide to do it. It is pretty amazing and you'd be doing a really good deed.
 

akbecker

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Babies are actually pretty simple and easy to care for. We (I) would be glad to help you through every step of the process, if you decide to do it. It is pretty amazing and you'd be doing a really good deed.

That would be great! Especially since it looks like the two (or at least the fella) are interested in mating. It was really interesting watching it live. I think I'll keep them separate this summer and then research more and maybe try next Spring. Is there a thread in this forum about breeding? Generally about how long you put them together, how you monitor for egg laying, how to incubate the eggs? I saw the threads on hatchlings, so I know there is a lot about that second part of the whole process, its more the beginning stages that seem foggy.

My main reservation about breeding, which is the same reason I was hesitant to have to maybe relinquish one of my torts if I couldn't separate them, is how do you trust the people you give the torts to? How do you ensure they are going to keep them in healthy conditions? Not everyone is responsible, and few people seem to take the time to really research pets. I did a tremendous amount of research and truly thought my torts would be fine together - as far as being healthy and not being bullied. I didn't quite grasp how territorial Russians are or how frisky the males are. But I've read A LOT (thank you for all the information you contribute) of your posts Tom and know you breed a couple species - so you obviously aren't keeping all of them. But at the same time, I read your post or maybe someone else's, that seemed to admonish some of the humane societies that require lengthy due diligence for potential buyers, contracts, and fees. It seems to me that requiring people to prove they've done basic research proves they know what they are getting into. The contract seems more of way to ensure that if the person decides they can't handle it, that the person feels or knows they can relinquish it back to the society - so it doesn't end up on Craigslist and picked up by someone on a whim. And if people can't afford the adoption fee, how can they afford the lighting, heat, electricity, vet bills, and initial costs of building enclosures (even basic ones). We hear a lot about finding reputable breeders, but where do you find the reputable owners?

[BTW, one thing I hate about emails, texts, and forums, is that you can't read tone. I think I proved that because I thought one of the earlier posts sounded more negative then it actually was meant to be. So, my last part about the finding owners is very much meant to be a theoretical conversation, I'm really interested in learning - and would love you hear your takes, and anyone else's on breeding and potential ethical issues with selling to strangers. Which reminds me, there may already be a thread on this, so point me in the right direction is there already is.]
 

Saleama

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You will be able to tell if the tanks from one cross into the territory of the other, lol.
"it can get bloody and it is natural. If you see her act that way you can seperate her and have a better chance at recovering"

Biting at and ramming is part of the male russian behavior when wanting to mount the female....here is where it gets tricky....in a forced captive environment the female has little space to retreat fully and run away from the aggressive male, which can have adverse health issues...in the wild the female can escape the advances of the male by running off and has this as an option to work in her favor to help assure her safety...so, a bloodied female is not natural..unfortunately, it is all too common in a forced captive situation for the female to be highly stressed, where a person is less concerned about the welfare of the tort, in exchange for the potential "$200+" profit per tort.....

akbecker, please do accept my apology if anything I shared made you feel as though my intention was a negative one towards you---I simply spoke frankly to you... my intention nor feeling while sharing should have been heard while reading in any other way....just so you know..
You should quit taking things out of context to avoid confusing people. Your direct contradictions are often confusing and of no possible help. My statement was in direct reference to TC situation and an answer to their questions. It was not, unlike many of your posts on this forum, an attempt to offer any advice NOT asked for. TC wanted to know signs of certain things and what to do if breeding and egg laying occurs. A FEMALE russian tortoise will in fact, attack others to warn them she is about to lay (this answers his question about signs she is gravid). They do this in captivity AND they do it in the wild if another tortoise comes in contact with them. It is natural! I am not sure where you get your information but life in the great outdoors is very violent and very bloody and very NATURAL despite your candy coated ideals, this also includes the tortoise and turtle world. Also, I in NO WAY suggested that TC submit his tortoise to danger for profit and it is HIGHLY OFFENSIVE of you to suggest that I did!
 

Tom

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So, my last part about the finding owners is very much meant to be a theoretical conversation, I'm really interested in learning - and would love you hear your takes, and anyone else's on breeding and potential ethical issues with selling to strangers.


A simple phone conversation or two, as well as emails have always been enough for me to evaluate this satisfactorily. I have never needed a contract.

To address your above points, I don't have any problem with any rescue requiring people to pay whatever they want and jump through as many hoops as they want. I have no problem with yard inspections or contracts or any of the common stipulations. It is their tortoise and they can go to whatever lengths they want to place them wherever they want. What I have a problem with is the people who do require large fees, oppressive contracts, and lots of invasion of privacy jumping on the internet and telling others how their facility is over crowded and there are too many sulcatas in the world, and no one should ever breed them. When sulcatas become available at our local shelters they are adopted within minutes. Whenever an ad is posted or someone has one to place for free without contracts, yard inspections or large fees, they fly right out the door immediately. In other words, the problem is not an excess of tortoises needing homes, the problem is adoption policies that many prospective tortoise owners choose to avoid. Why would anyone go through all of that when they can get a free tortoise elsewhere without all the hassle? Again, the rescues can do whatever they want, and I don't fault them for it, but they don't seem to realize that they have so many tortoises in their facility BECAUSE of their adoption policies.
 

akbecker

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A simple phone conversation or two, as well as emails have always been enough for me to evaluate this satisfactorily. I have never needed a contract.

To address your above points, I don't have any problem with any rescue requiring people to pay whatever they want and jump through as many hoops as they want. I have no problem with yard inspections or contracts or any of the common stipulations. It is their tortoise and they can go to whatever lengths they want to place them wherever they want. What I have a problem with is the people who do require large fees, oppressive contracts, and lots of invasion of privacy jumping on the internet and telling others how their facility is over crowded and there are too many sulcatas in the world, and no one should ever breed them. When sulcatas become available at our local shelters they are adopted within minutes. Whenever an ad is posted or someone has one to place for free without contracts, yard inspections or large fees, they fly right out the door immediately. In other words, the problem is not an excess of tortoises needing homes, the problem is adoption policies that many prospective tortoise owners choose to avoid. Why would anyone go through all of that when they can get a free tortoise elsewhere without all the hassle? Again, the rescues can do whatever they want, and I don't fault them for it, but they don't seem to realize that they have so many tortoises in their facility BECAUSE of their adoption policies.

That's right, my apologies - I do remember that thread now where you were discussing that - I did take that out of context. And thanks for the further explanation.
And I did find the whole section and threads on breeding, so I will be perusing that section and then post any specific questions I have regarding breeding the Russians in that area as they come up - Thanks!
 
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