Housing same genus different species?

smarch

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2012
Messages
4,067
Location (City and/or State)
Massachusetts
First off I'll be clear I have no intent to do this, i'm just curious.

I know that we don't house different species together due to different needs as well as different diseases/parasites that can be passed and cause big problems. Is that still the thinking when they're of the same genus? I mean 'Nank's a Russian, would it be possible to house him with another testudo species like greek or hermans? Mind you I don't really know much about the care of those species since I only have a Russian. But aren't the care's similar? and would their diseases/parasites they're immune to be close. Could these species ever bump into each other in the wild?

I don't per-say intend for this to be a debate (I feel I post too many debatable things) if it turns into it ok and it can be moved there if seen fit. But i'm just really curious as to what the general logic on that, since I've never heard of anything like this question.
 

turtlemanfla88

Active Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2014
Messages
443
I would not just because one animal can live with something and you put a new animal in there and one of them gets sick. When I was young and dumb I did it and nothing happened and every thing was fine other times I lost animals not right away,but in time.
 

Yellow Turtle01

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Jun 12, 2013
Messages
7,710
Location (City and/or State)
OH, USA
I think torts don;t do well together, period, but in the wild, turtles ad tortoise bump into eachother, I could suppose. All of my turtles are 'colonial' and live in the same areas in the wild, expect my YBS, but I mean, I guess she';s not ALL that different?
 

Turtlepete

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 12, 2014
Messages
972
Location (City and/or State)
South Florida
The thing is, there is one giant flaw in the argument of housing different species together. They "have different pathogens from the different areas of the world they occur". Well, thats all fine and great…..IF your dealing with WC animals. CB animals don't carry these pathogens/diseases/bacteria like their WC counterparts do….Now I'm not saying I agree with housing different species together. I'm saying that the argument of different pathogens/parasites, etc. is invalid if your dealing with CB animals. Apart from that, the argument still exists of differing habitat needs, which of course must be considered.

Within the same genus, assuming they occur in the same part of the world and have the same habitat needs (many species of the same genus overlap in the wild) AND they are CB animals, AND they get along (which must be considered when housing any animals together, of any species), then I can't possibly see a problem.

In your specific situation, you must consider that Russian's are known to be quite aggressive to other tortoises.
 

smarch

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2012
Messages
4,067
Location (City and/or State)
Massachusetts
The thing is, there is one giant flaw in the argument of housing different species together. They "have different pathogens from the different areas of the world they occur". Well, thats all fine and great…..IF your dealing with WC animals. CB animals don't carry these pathogens/diseases/bacteria like their WC counterparts do….Now I'm not saying I agree with housing different species together. I'm saying that the argument of different pathogens/parasites, etc. is invalid if your dealing with CB animals. Apart from that, the argument still exists of differing habitat needs, which of course must be considered.

Within the same genus, assuming they occur in the same part of the world and have the same habitat needs (many species of the same genus overlap in the wild) AND they are CB animals, AND they get along (which must be considered when housing any animals together, of any species), then I can't possibly see a problem.

In your specific situation, you must consider that Russian's are known to be quite aggressive to other tortoises.
That second paragraph was pretty much exactly answered the questions I wanted answered :)

I was just using my lil guy as a reference, I know he'll forever be alone due to the nature of Russians and the fact that he is WC. I just happen to know the testudo genus best since i scroll through it all the tine to get to the Russian section. I don't necessarily intend to ever even mix species it was more of hey I know we don't and I know why we don't but what if they're close, just my curiosity really.
Thanks :)
 

Abdulla6169

Well-Known Member
Tortoise Club
5 Year Member
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jun 23, 2014
Messages
6,230
Location (City and/or State)
Dubai/New York
That second paragraph was pretty much exactly answered the questions I wanted answered :)

I was just using my lil guy as a reference, I know he'll forever be alone due to the nature of Russians and the fact that he is WC. I just happen to know the testudo genus best since i scroll through it all the tine to get to the Russian section. I don't necessarily intend to ever even mix species it was more of hey I know we don't and I know why we don't but what if they're close, just my curiosity really.
Thanks :)
Read this:
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/index....sulcatas-be-kept-together?.86457/#post-806003
 

Turtlepete

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 12, 2014
Messages
972
Location (City and/or State)
South Florida
That second paragraph was pretty much exactly answered the questions I wanted answered :)

I was just using my lil guy as a reference, I know he'll forever be alone due to the nature of Russians and the fact that he is WC. I just happen to know the testudo genus best since i scroll through it all the tine to get to the Russian section. I don't necessarily intend to ever even mix species it was more of hey I know we don't and I know why we don't but what if they're close, just my curiosity really.
Thanks :)

Keep in mind there is a difference between allowing to co-exist and breeding. I'm sure you know that though. For instance, most won't even hybridize sub-species. Some go as far as to separate even localities (brazilian, bolivian, columbian red foots, that sort of thing).

I'll re-state that a LOT of conditions need to be met for it to be done safely. But if all those conditions are met, then there really is no way to prove that there is a risk.
 

Benjamin

Active Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Jan 5, 2011
Messages
773
Location (City and/or State)
zone 7b
I have recently started housing my cb indotestudo forstenii with my cb elongata and they do well together.
I will certainly separate them before they are mature.
 

Kapidolo Farms

Well-Known Member
10 Year Member!
Tortoise Club
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Nov 7, 2012
Messages
5,172
Location (City and/or State)
South of Southern California, but not Mexico
This is indeed a troll question.
This is the troll answer.

Captive bred does not mean disease free, any more than the husbandry habits of the breeder.
Niche partitioning is so strong that actual in-the-wild cohabitation is pretty darn rare (this was the topic of my graduate academic coursework/thesis).
Any two organisms getting alone ALL THE TIME is not likely ever, you just don't see the accumulated stress dominance/subordination.

Even the two best of friends, no matter how you want to think of your own life or project these values onto your animals, have a break from each other sometimes.

So, if you are going to account for all these things, it becomes simpler to not house them all together.

There are indeed good reasons to house animals together, but they are often well monitored situations. Most often it appears, based on what people profess to do here on TFO and elsewhere, is to "get More" and just put them in together, 'cuase well it's easier.

Follow this link for a more explicit not so troll answer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precautionary_principle
 

smarch

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2012
Messages
4,067
Location (City and/or State)
Massachusetts
Keep in mind there is a difference between allowing to co-exist and breeding. I'm sure you know that though. For instance, most won't even hybridize sub-species. Some go as far as to separate even localities (brazilian, bolivian, columbian red foots, that sort of thing).

I'll re-state that a LOT of conditions need to be met for it to be done safely. But if all those conditions are met, then there really is no way to prove that there is a risk.
I don't think I'd want to breed tortoises anyway, i'd leave that to the experts here, and of course i'd never consider inter-breeding either, its super unnatural! I've seen Lepracatas (is that how we spell it?) and theyre cute but that's not even relatively close to the same, how did the first person know how to care for them? At least close to the same care genus tort "cousins" have closer cares.
I also completely understand even separating localities too, its all in how the people want to care for their animals, While I believe like said if all CB they wouldn't carry parasites and disease that could be passed, but even if it is in theory safe I wouldn't personally just because I see it as hard enough to get groups to live in harmony of the same species why try to mix up even close species. I'll probably eventually venture into keeping a group (not Russians, since frank's WC he wouldn't be a group guy anyways plus Russians are a rowdy bunch... although if ones fun a bunch must be too!!)
 

Abdulla6169

Well-Known Member
Tortoise Club
5 Year Member
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jun 23, 2014
Messages
6,230
Location (City and/or State)
Dubai/New York
I don't think I'd want to breed tortoises anyway, i'd leave that to the experts here, and of course i'd never consider inter-breeding either, its super unnatural! I've seen Lepracatas (is that how we spell it?) and theyre cute but that's not even relatively close to the same, how did the first person know how to care for them? At least close to the same care genus tort "cousins" have closer cares.
I also completely understand even separating localities too, its all in how the people want to care for their animals, While I believe like said if all CB they wouldn't carry parasites and disease that could be passed, but even if it is in theory safe I wouldn't personally just because I see it as hard enough to get groups to live in harmony of the same species why try to mix up even close species. I'll probably eventually venture into keeping a group (not Russians, since frank's WC he wouldn't be a group guy anyways plus Russians are a rowdy bunch... although if ones fun a bunch must be too!!)
I don't suggest keeping tortoises of different species ever. The tortoises you see may have contact in the wild, they may have contact for a very short time. I think it would be less than a day... Just read the link I posted.
 
Last edited by a moderator:

Abdulla6169

Well-Known Member
Tortoise Club
5 Year Member
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jun 23, 2014
Messages
6,230
Location (City and/or State)
Dubai/New York
The thing is, there is one giant flaw in the argument of housing different species together. They "have different pathogens from the different areas of the world they occur". Well, thats all fine and great…..IF your dealing with WC animals. CB animals don't carry these pathogens/diseases/bacteria like their WC counterparts do….Now I'm not saying I agree with housing different species together. I'm saying that the argument of different pathogens/parasites, etc. is invalid if your dealing with CB animals. Apart from that, the argument still exists of differing habitat needs, which of course must be considered.

Within the same genus, assuming they occur in the same part of the world and have the same habitat needs (many species of the same genus overlap in the wild) AND they are CB animals, AND they get along (which must be considered when housing any animals together, of any species), then I can't possibly see a problem.

In your specific situation, you must consider that Russian's are known to be quite aggressive to other tortoises.
CB tortoises will carry pathogens. How do some tortoises end up with internal parasites? Aren't all tortoises descendants from WC ones? The parasites from the WC be still present, they can be found on the egg, on the embryo, when they leave the nesting site, etc...
 

smarch

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2012
Messages
4,067
Location (City and/or State)
Massachusetts
This is indeed a troll question.
This is the troll answer.

Captive bred does not mean disease free, any more than the husbandry habits of the breeder.
Niche partitioning is so strong that actual in-the-wild cohabitation is pretty darn rare (this was the topic of my graduate academic coursework/thesis).
Any two organisms getting alone ALL THE TIME is not likely ever, you just don't see the accumulated stress dominance/subordination.

Even the two best of friends, no matter how you want to think of your own life or project these values onto your animals, have a break from each other sometimes.

So, if you are going to account for all these things, it becomes simpler to not house them all together.

There are indeed good reasons to house animals together, but they are often well monitored situations. Most often it appears, based on what people profess to do here on TFO and elsewhere, is to "get More" and just put them in together, 'cuase well it's easier.

Follow this link for a more explicit not so troll answer http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Precautionary_principle
It actually wasn't a troll question, I know it may sound so since different specie housing is frowned upon and I seem to have reopened the can of worms.
I'd just noticed from the many species housing posts there was never anything posted about the genus and I was wondering if that matterd or was seen as "less bad" here. But really it was a genuine question. And i'd said I don't intend to try I was just curious as to how we view that when the species are close.
I don't think it would be easier to get more and house them together because its "easier"... seems like it would be harder to me to get 2 even close species to coexist.
 

Turtlepete

Well-Known Member
Joined
May 12, 2014
Messages
972
Location (City and/or State)
South Florida
@AbdullaAli

I should probably say, rather, "CB animals aren't as likely to carry x pathogens". Because it is of course a possibility. But it's not nearly as likely with animals that have two or three generations between them and their wC ancestors.

No matter the argument you make, one will always stand. "If there is a risk, why take it?" Well, some have their reasons for taking those risks, then they take those risks, succeed, and never have any of the problems. But as long as we have people claiming there is scientific evidence that keeping tortoises together period is the bubonic plague, that mystery bugs will kill every animal you own should they be within 10 feet of each other, then there really isn't going to be a widely accepted "answer". It's up to the specific keeper to do what they want with their animals, and make an intelligent conclusion from the information presented to them.
 

smarch

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2012
Messages
4,067
Location (City and/or State)
Massachusetts
I don't suggest keeping tortoises of different species ever. The tortoises you see may have contact in the wild, they may have contact for a very short time. I think it would be less than a day... Just read the link I posted.
yeah I read the link, I guess I quickly jumped to assume living in geographically close settings that they'd live together, but tortoises live in solitude and running into each other really is the only contact they'd get. in fact i'm wondering if i'll ever even try a group of the same because they like being alone theyre not "lonely"
 

Abdulla6169

Well-Known Member
Tortoise Club
5 Year Member
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jun 23, 2014
Messages
6,230
Location (City and/or State)
Dubai/New York
yeah I read the link, I guess I quickly jumped to assume living in geographically close settings that they'd live together, but tortoises live in solitude and running into each other really is the only contact they'd get. in fact i'm wondering if i'll ever even try a group of the same because they like being alone theyre not "lonely"
With this genus it's really hard & you'll have lots of stress going on...
 

smarch

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2012
Messages
4,067
Location (City and/or State)
Massachusetts
CB tortoises will carry pathogens. How do some tortoises end up with internal parasites? Aren't all tortoises descendants from WC ones? The parasites from the WC be still present, they can be found on the egg, on the embryo, when they leave the nesting site, etc...
Yeah i'd just started to think about that, because we're born with diseases they we've become immune to but are still carriers of, they do get passed down.
 

smarch

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2012
Messages
4,067
Location (City and/or State)
Massachusetts
With this genus it's really hard & you'll have lots of stress going on...
Yeah they were just an example... a bad one lol, but 'Nanks Russian so I know the testudo genus because I have to click through it to get to the Russian threads. I don't have intent to do it, it was just curiosity (and 'Nank's WC he wont even get paired with other Russians ever)
 

Abdulla6169

Well-Known Member
Tortoise Club
5 Year Member
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jun 23, 2014
Messages
6,230
Location (City and/or State)
Dubai/New York
@AbdullaAli

I should probably say, rather, "CB animals aren't as likely to carry x pathogens". Because it is of course a possibility. But it's not nearly as likely with animals that have two or three generations between them and their wC ancestors.

No matter the argument you make, one will always stand. "If there is a risk, why take it?" Well, some have their reasons for taking those risks, then they take those risks, succeed, and never have any of the problems. But as long as we have people claiming there is scientific evidence that keeping tortoises together period is the bubonic plague, that mystery bugs will kill every animal you own should they be within 10 feet of each other, then there really isn't going to be a widely accepted "answer". It's up to the specific keeper to do what they want with their animals, and make an intelligent conclusion from the information presented to them.
How can you prove that CB hatchlings are 2-3 generations apart from the WC parents? You can't. Tortoises can live & breed after +50 years, so chances are one of the breeding parents may be WC...
 

smarch

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2012
Messages
4,067
Location (City and/or State)
Massachusetts
How can you prove that CB hatchlings are 2-3 generations apart from the WC parents? You can't. Tortoises can live & breed after +50 years, so chances are one of the breeding parents may be WC...
Isnt it also true many tortoises of breeding age are still closer to WC because breeding is relatively new to the hobby over WC. And don't many breeders still take in some WC torts to add to the gene pool.
 
Top