Hermann's MBD - how to proceed

UnoriginalUrsula

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Hello, hate to be that guy that the first post is asking for help, but I'd really appreciate input from other keepers.

*long post, sorry*

I met a man last year who asked me how he would go about drilling a hole into the shell of his newly acquired 2 year old tortoise. I of course explained exactly why he should never in a million years do that etc., and finally talked him out of it. However, he asked if I could sex it and clip the claws. He brought it in the following day, a huge female Hermann's - he had the paperwork that stated 2 years old, but this animal was around 6 inches long. She had an underbite and her claws were curled (not long, but curly) both of which I understand to be a sign of MBD. I pointed this out to him and went through the care of this tortoise, and it became apparent there was no care really. Being kept in an open drawer, never seen the sun or a heat lamp or a UV bulb. Fed on tomatoes and cucumber. No supplements. He left me in a massive huff and I didn't see him for 12-18 months ish.

Yesterday I saw him again, only this time he tells me that the tortoise has stopped moving/eating/opening it's eyes. She's hibernated (on and off) and since waking up her eyes have been closed. He said his daughter isn't bothering with her and he admitted he had no idea how to care for a tortoise. He's been getting advice from an old lady over the road who has a 48 year old marginated tethered by a rope through it's shell, and she smothers it in olive oil once a week, and feeds it throughout bouts of hibernation *cringe*. Anyway, he said he wanted to give this tortoise away, and asked me if I would take her. I said yes, of course.

She arrived this morning, stone cold.Her eyes were closed tight and puffy. Her legs are thin but they all work, she's barely moved since arriving. Her shell is hard and shiny, with slight pyramiding. She's now pretty much the size of a fully grown male Hermann's and she's allegedly 3 years old. The man said she was the size of a 50p when they got her (no idea how true this is). I have set her up on a topsoil/sand mix in a 6ft indoor rabbit cage, there is a heat lamp and UV lamp at the one end, but I put her in the cold end so she hasn't been shocked by a temperature increase. The bloke said she's eaten half a tomato since waking up. She's not interested in food here. Apparently they've been bathing her and she's not really reacted or changed. She's occasionally stretching her legs out and she's turned around (hence knowing her legs work - barely), and her eyes have opened. Her mouth looks normal inside and her vent is clean.

Now, I'll be taking her over to my vet, who is about 30 miles away, but the reptile specialist won't be available now until Tuesday (I can take her sooner, but it will be a standard small animal vet). With previous MBD issues (which I'm assuming this is, as it certainly has all the signs), I've dealt with in lizards that people have dumped on me... they've had calcium injections and D3 injections. Some have been tube fed. However, I've never dealt with a tortoise under the same circumstances and I've been told by a couple of breeders that calcium and D3 injections are not the way to go. I've got Reptoboost here which I intend to use when bathing, but is it going to be more harm constantly stressing her out by taking her on 60 mile round trips for injections? Or should I start the process at home and make some progress before? Please note, I am not asking on here to save money, she can go straight to the vet if that's what is needed right now, but I've read so many conflicting things and I don't want to be the one to finish her off by picking the wrong option.
 

JoesMum

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Hi. Well done for the rescue.

My first piece of advice is to ramp the heat up. A tort cannot be active until it is warm enough. It needs to be stuck under the basking lamp. This is especially necessary if a tort is sick.

It also needs long, proper soaks. A good 30 minutes in warm water at least twice a day.

This care sheet for Hermann's is written by a species expert who spends a lot of time correcting misinformation about their care
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/sticky-hermanns-tortoise-care-sheet-updated.101410/

You're probably aware that its diet should be leafy greens. It can't digest sugars properly so fruit, tomato, peppers and carrot should only be fed very occasionally.
 

UnoriginalUrsula

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Will it not shock her to be heated rapidly?

Yes I'm aware of the diet, I have a dish of suitable weeds in with her at the moment with some calcium and Nutrobal (not too much, I know how easily put off they can be by the bitterness of the calcium)

*edit* - sorry I sounded really abrupt there and didn't intend to, thank you for responding! :)
 

JoesMum

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Will it not shock her to be heated rapidly?

Yes I'm aware of the diet, I have a dish of suitable weeds in with her at the moment with some calcium and Nutrobal (not too much, I know how easily put off they can be by the bitterness of the calcium)

*edit* - sorry I sounded really abrupt there and didn't intend to, thank you for responding! :)
No. Getting some warmth into that tort now will be fine. It has bern cold, but not in a freezer. Torts come out if hibernation pretty quickly when it's warm enough - this one is probably dehydrated as well as starving.

My vet recommends adding Reptoboost to soaking water for sick torts and those coming out of hibernation. I use it. It's an electrolyte.

I'd get food in as a priority and add calcium once appetite starts to return. No point putting the animal off straight away!
 

JoesMum

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40 minute Reptoboost soak complete - poor sod drank for ages :( Dried her off and put her under the lamp. Really, really hope I can help her.
That's encouraging that so much was drunk :)

Keep going with the soaks. Do it again in the morning.

The lights should go off completely at night. In the morning do a soak and have food in the enclosure when you return the tort to it.

I generally find, Joe drinks gallons after hibernation and then does a massive pee before starting to eat.
 

MPRC

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I'm glad to hear she is drinking. Keep that poor baby warm and offer her lots of enticing foods. You may have to mix some tomatoes and cucumbers into her healthy food in order to get her eating since that may be the only food she knows.

I would be interested to see photos. Good luck!
 

Yvonne G

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Hi, and welcome to the Forum!

Good job on the rescue. Hopefully you will be able to turn her around. I soak my non-eaters in baby food, but it's good to know about Reptoboost. I'll see if I can find that here and give it a try next time.
 

UnoriginalUrsula

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Went to turn Mavis' lights off earlier to find that she had died. I am heartbroken. Thank you for your help all.
 

surfergirl

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I am so very sorry for your loss, you did all that you could do for her. Hopefully you can find some peace in that you made her last days better than they would have been without your care for her.
 

dmmj

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please accept my condolences the poor
tortoise was probably beyond help
 

JoesMum

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Went to turn Mavis' lights off earlier to find that she had died. I am heartbroken. Thank you for your help all.
I am really, really sorry to hear this. :(

Please make sure she is actually dead - a glimmer of life can hang on for a long time without being obvious in a tort.

Deepest sympathies from me :(
 

Cheryl Hills

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So sorry to here this. At least she knew someone cared at the end. We thank you for giving her a chance.
 

Tom

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I'd really like to go beat that jackass guy about the head with the dead tortoise now. Would that be illegal? :mad:

12-18 months ago you could have saved her… Good for you for trying.
 

UnoriginalUrsula

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I'd really like to go beat that jackass guy about the head with the dead tortoise now. Would that be illegal? :mad:

12-18 months ago you could have saved her… Good for you for trying.


Yes, and do you want to hear the best part? He told me he would be coming back in a couple of months to see how I was getting on, and then said if she was back to normal he would (and I quote) "probably have her back". Over my dead body would he have! I'm so sad for her. They can live such a long time and all she's known is this short, miserable existence.
 

Lyn W

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What a sad life this poor tort had, but you did all you could in the circumstances and I'm so sorry she didn't make it but at least she was safe and warm at the end. Thanks for trying.
 

Tom

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Yes, and do you want to hear the best part? He told me he would be coming back in a couple of months to see how I was getting on, and then said if she was back to normal he would (and I quote) "probably have her back". Over my dead body would he have! I'm so sad for her. They can live such a long time and all she's known is this short, miserable existence.

When he comes back to see how you are "getting on", PLEASE put me on the phone with him. I have a few things I'd like to explain to him...
 

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