Herman or Red Foot

[turtletalk]

Hello All!

My name is Kim and I live in the Orlando, FL area. We have been contemplating getting a pair of tortoises to eventually house in our courtyard. Spent the day yesterday at the Chelonian Research Institute in Oviedo checking out the variouse habitats and types of tortoises. We were given a tour by Dr. Pritchard and D.J. and ofcourse fell in love with all of the tortoises!!!

I came home and did lots of research and I think I have it narrowed down to either a Herman or a Red Foot. I have a few questions and any help/advice would be greatly appreciated!

Dr. Pritchard recommended going to the Daytona Reptile Convention they will be holding in late August so I am trying to make some decisions before hand!

1. What age would be good to start with? and if we get little guys how long before they are old (big) enough to live in the courtyard?

2. I'd like to get a pair, but from the sounds of what I've read the males can be pretty aggressive during mating season and even hurt the females, so should I consider 2 females? I'm really not interested in breeding them, so I'm OK with not having babies one day, but I just don't want them to be lonely ; )

3. Are Hermans too small to live outside in a courtyard year round even when fully grown?

4. We originally thought we wanted a Russian but from my research it seems they are not good for FL humidity, so is there another variety/species, besides the Herman and Red Foots I should consider?

5. Will I need to have a "pool" of water for them to soak in through out the day, or will it be sufficient if I just put one out occasionally, like maybe once a week?

These are few of the questions I've been pondering. Thank you in advance for any help/suggestions you may have!

Kim

 

[pwincess shelly]

hi!! thats great!!! welcome

 

[Seiryu]

"1. What age would be good to start with? and if we get little guys how long before they are old (big) enough to live in the courtyard?"

A: Most will recommend getting a little bit older (2-3 year+ tortoises) as they are easier to care for because they are established. However if you do your research and don't rush into things, ask a lot of questions I don't see a problem with getting one 4+months old or older. I personally wouldn't go below that.

"2. I'd like to get a pair, but from the sounds of what I've read the males can be pretty aggressive during mating season and even hurt the females, so should I consider 2 females? I'm really not interested in breeding them, so I'm OK with not having babies one day, but I just don't want them to be lonely ; )"

A: Males can be aggresive with any species. I don't think they do it very young though. If you notice one trying to bump the other one, climbing constantly on one another, you'd probably need to seperate. Just make sure to provide many hides, enough food for both, and enough space. More can chime in on that.

"3. Are Hermans too small to live outside in a courtyard year round even when fully grown?"

A: Any species of tortoise is BEST to live outside, although it doesn't always work that way %100 of the time. Make sure the temps are ok and humidity not too high. Cold and Wet = Bad. I personally wouldn't let a hatchling (1 yr or younger) out alone without supervision. Make sure your outdoor enclosure is "wildlife" proof and nothing can get in or out. Even underneath the bottom of the enclosure i'd put chicken wire or plywood that's been Polyurethane sealed so it doesn't rot. Chicken wire stuff works best though I think.

"4. We originally thought we wanted a Russian but from my research it seems they are not good for FL humidity, so is there another variety/species, besides the Herman and Red Foots I should consider?"

A: You could try leopards, or sulcatas. Leopards get to be 14-20" SCL and Sulcata's way bigger than that. A few people here have sulcata's over 100 lbs. Sulcata's would need a much bigger area than a leopard. If you can't provide a bigger enclosure, I wouldn't get a sulcata. My leopard is going to have a 10x6 ft enclosure. More room the better (with anything).

"5. Will I need to have a "pool" of water for them to soak in through out the day, or will it be sufficient if I just put one out occasionally, like maybe once a week?"

A: Yes, I would provide a pool of water and cleaned daily. Regular soaks are also good in luke warm water. You can get plant saucer's that have small lips for easy access or buy "groovy jacuzi" type reptile specific pools. Those are about $20-30. Make sure the water is never deeper than up to the bottom of the tortoises chin. And after buying, make sure the tortoise can get in and out without much of a problem.

More should come in chime in with their opinions, hope this helps and welcome!

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Hermanns and Redfoots are entirely different species from different HEMISPHERES!!! Hermanns are 6-7" maybe.. redfoots get to be over twice that size. My [ younger ] adult female is approaching 14".

Be sure you have info about each one individually. Hermanns don't like either the extreme heat or humidity [ where you are ].. but redfoots like it humid.. as long as there is constant shade available.

My adult redfoots have never been aggressive toward each other.. whereas other species do!

A "sight-barrier" is vital for outside enclosures so they can't see out! Never fencing of any kind.. just adds stress.

A pool of water [ in the shade ] is vital for all tortoises.. only deep enough to easily walk into and soak on their own.

Leopards can be sensitive to humidity.. and are not the easiest to keep.

Not knowing what you mean by a courtyard - if it has concrete anywhere.. I wouldn't suggest that space. As you know concrete can get very hot in the sun.

It may sound like I'm contradicting what you've read so far.. only because no 2 tortoise species are cared for the same - especially the 2 you have mentioned.

For what it's worth.. I've been caring for redfoots since 1998. You may want to look thru the links in my signature.

Terry K

 

[turtletalk]

Thank you Rob and Terry for the info! I am leaning towards the Red Foot at this point, but still researching. I think their larger size is a plus for being kept outside in a semi-secure area. Our courtyard is walled in but has a dirt floor which is currently covered in red lava rock and various plants such as ferns, lantana, plumbago and ofcourse a few weeds thrown in . Our plan is to add some sort of water feature with trickling water and rocks and research the appropriate type of plants we'll need to add. It is mainly in the shade until about mid-morning and then the sun start to come over our house and by mid-afternoon we have mostly sun. There are various "shady" areas due to overhangs and plants but our plan was to build some sort of shelter or two in a corner or so. It will be open (no cover or roof) but the walls surrounding it on three sides are the house and then there is a 4 foot wall along the front. After visiting the Chelonian Research Institute I felt much better about this since almost all of their enclosures are open. From the sounds of it the Red Foots would probably be a better size and more adapted to the heat and humidity? and I do like the idea that if I got a male and female they wouldn't be as aggressive towards each other. I saw several of the Red Foots at the Institute and they were very active, came right up to us and enjoyed sitting with my children and being hand fed so I'm hoping this is the type of behavior you generally see!

We have a lot of research ahead of us, we want to make a wise decision and avoid making common mistakes so I GREATLY appreciate your input! Terry will you be at the Daytona Expo?

Thank you again!

Kim

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Hi Kim and welcome...Have you thought that most tortoises are grazers and will want some grass to eat and relax on? Just a thought...

 

[Madkins007]

Hello All!

My name is Kim and I live in the Orlando, FL area. We have been contemplating getting a pair of tortoises to eventually house in our courtyard. Spent the day yesterday at the Chelonian Research Institute in Oviedo checking out the variouse habitats and types of tortoises. We were given a tour by Dr. Pritchard and D.J. and ofcourse fell in love with all of the tortoises!!!

I came home and did lots of research and I think I have it narrowed down to either a Herman or a Red Foot. I have a few questions and any help/advice would be greatly appreciated!

Dr. Pritchard recommended going to the Daytona Reptile Convention they will be holding in late August so I am trying to make some decisions before hand!

1. What age would be good to start with? and if we get little guys how long before they are old (big) enough to live in the courtyard? My notes will be in bold, if I do this right. I would recommend a well-started tortoise about a year old- but I would take advantage of any wonderful animals you find.

2. I'd like to get a pair, but from the sounds of what I've read the males can be pretty aggressive during mating season and even hurt the females, so should I consider 2 females? I'm really not interested in breeding them, so I'm OK with not having babies one day, but I just don't want them to be lonely ; )
In general, Red-foot males are OK together, or you can keep just one perfectly OK. The big question would be if you can provide enough room for more than one so they do not feel crowded.

3. Are Hermans too small to live outside in a courtyard year round even when fully grown?

4. We originally thought we wanted a Russian but from my research it seems they are not good for FL humidity, so is there another variety/species, besides the Herman and Red Foots I should consider?
There are several other species possible, but Red-foots are fairly hardy and considered good for beginners who can do the warmth and humidity concerns.

5. Will I need to have a "pool" of water for them to soak in through out the day, or will it be sufficient if I just put one out occasionally, like maybe once a week?
A pool would be better. They may not use it much, but all torts should have easy free-will access to water.

These are few of the questions I've been pondering. Thank you in advance for any help/suggestions you may have!

Kim

Good luck, and I am so jealous you met one of my turtle heros!

 

[Crazy1]

Hi Kim, you have gotten some solid advice. Now about the plants, first no lantana or plumbago toxic to torts. Some ferns are not good but most are so you need to know what you have. You will have to get rid of most of if not all the lava rock. Dirt is good. RF I don't thing dig much unless laying eggs. Hermans like to dig in and hide a bit but not too deep. If you get a pair
(m-f) you will have hatchlings. One tortoise can live well by it's self. They are more solitary animals.
Check out this thread TerryO has done a wonderful job making a beautiful habitat for her Redfoot.
http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-8158.html

Oh and welcome to the forum.

 

[turtletalk]

Thank you all for all your generous help and responses!

Maggie, yes! and by the sounds of it I'll be doing some major planting, but I love to garden so I will love the challenge! Do you have a particular type of grass/moss you like best?

Madkins007, Thank you! I am pretty much leaning towards a red foot at this point and I am going to measure my courtyard and post how much space I have to make sure it is adequate. It seems pretty big to me, but I just want to make sure. I'm still leaning towards a pair, but only if I have ample room. Dr. Pritchard was wonderful! He spent so much time with us and was incredibly kind to my children! If you are ever in this area you will have to pay him a visit! He has an amazing set up!

Robyn, Thank you for the thread to TerryO's habitat! I LOVE it! What great inspiration! I am definitely going to need to study up on the appropriate types of plants my little guy will need and after seeing TerryO's pictures I am inspired to replicate! Thank you again!

I can hardly wait for the Daytona Expo so we can find our little guys!!!

 

[Crazy1]

Well when you decide and have him home you will have to post pictures. Start thinking of names now never too early for that--Especially for me it takes me forever to decide on names. And congratulations and welcome to the wonderful world of tort ownership

 

[Madkins007]

Re: Size. The rule of thumb is 'the bigger the better'. The European standard (which I really like, and simplified a bit here) is at least 8 shell lengths long by 4 wide for the first tortoise, doubled for the 2nd and add another shell length both directions for up to 5.

Since the Red-foot gets to about 12", this means about 8x4' for one. 8x8' for 2, and 9x9' for 3-5 adults. This is not an absolute rule (well, a variation IS the federal law in Germany) but gives you an idea of the space needs.

Outdoors, I like using bigger numbers- doubling or more. Bigger spaces reduce stress, crowding issues, hygiene issues, etc. and improve options- more microhabitats, more food options growing, more possible hiding places, etc. Its just more fun for the tortoise, and if you do it right, more fun for you, too!

 

[tortoisenerd]

Hi and welcome to the forum! Great ideas you have. Nice to see you are doign research. I'd be interested in a photo and measurements of the courtyard as it sounds like a huge project. Wow! With redfoots you will want a lot a lot a lot of ground cover, especially in Florida. Think about lying down on the rain forest floor looking up at the canopy...the amount of light you see is rather minimal.

My thought when you have more than 1 tort is to always plan for 2 enclosures, 2 of the largest sex (female), etc. Then, hope for the best. If you get two at one time it would be idea if they are clutch mates. I would have a separate enclosure on call for down the road if necessary. You don't want them to get sexually mature and decide they don't get along anymore, and then you're out of space.

As Robyn said, they are solitary animals. In the wild, they mostly only meet to mate. They are not like other animals who travel in groups and have families. What was your reason to get two? Just curious. Most of the time I read that someone either wants to mate them, or thinks one would get lonely without another one.

When you are planning your enclosure, if you are getting hatchlings and planning for the same enclosure as they grow huge, consider some things to follow. You want the enclosure to expand as they grow. At first you may only use a small part of it, and as they grow and feel safe with more space, you can expand it. This takes planning with fencing, substrate, plants, etc. If you are doing an outdoor enclosure on a large scale like this, you might as well set up grazing areas for the greens part of their diet. With the size I imagine you have (not huge but decent, but if you let the tort graze they could eat it all right away), you may want 2-3 areas, where you let the torts graze on one for awhile and let the other 2 grow back, etc. What were you planning to do for food anyways?

Looking forward to charring more!

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Kim I'm not about to go back thru all of the posts in this thread and comment on what has been said. Some of it is "right-on".. some of it is total nonsense. You be the judge.

I would encourage you to be sure that the info that you get comes from someone that has raised them [ themselves ] well enough that they naturally re-produce.. and not second-third hand info.. or doesn't even have one in their care. I have always asked for documentation.. although I often don't get it. Makes you wonder ( I would hope ) doesn't it?

Terry K

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Hi Kim, welcome to the forum...Most tortoises are solitary types looking at other tortoises as competition for their food or for mating, so one tort would be nice to get not a pair.
I use a Russian tort seed mix and a grazing tort seed mix from Carolina Reptile Supply. I don't keep either of the species you mentioned so I don't have a clue what they would eat, but I think Redfoots live on the forest floor so don't want to be in bright sun, they're gonna want a lot of plantings and a soaking pool. Once a week for a pool would suffice, but is not the best situation. Tortoises like to soak and drink more then that.. All of the tortoises I keep are grazers and eat the grass from the seeds I mentioned. Bermuda is good for grazers also...

 

[egyptiandan]

Welcome to the forum Kim

If you want I can give you a hand picking out a tortoise of which ever species you choose. I'll be down at the Expo in Daytona. I'll be on Turtle Island.

Danny

 

[tortoisenerd]

Any update for this post?

 

[turtletalk]

Thank you everyone! Good to know about the shade, I'm afraid the courtyard would be too sunny as it sits now so we will have to figure out a fix or a better spot. I did measure thought and it is 12 X 16 so from what I've gathered from your posts it would seem a good size for either one or two. I hear what you are all saying about only getting one and I'm considering that, although, I still think they would seem to get lonely. Does anyone know if Red Foots live alone in the wild or with a partner or group. I'd like to simulate nature as much as possible.

David we will definitely come by and see you!

Many thanks,

Kim

 

[Maggie Cummings]

Tortoises in the wild don't have buddies or live in a group. They look upon other tortoises as competition for the food and in the wild they only look for other tortoises to be used in mating, then it's bye bye baby and they don't even share a cigarette. One tort will be fine, they don't get lonely. Is there a way you could hang some shade cloth over a hide? Most tortoises come from sunny places so a sunny courtyard would do fine as long as the tort had a bit of shade so he could get out of the sun. One contradiction to that would be a redfoot because they live on the forest floor and wouldn't enjoy hot bright sun...

 

[tortoisenerd]

Other options are to have a lot of plants and trees in the courtyard. Tough to do unless you plan ahead a few years to let everything grow in though. Or, build a roof of sorts over part of it. I agree with Maggie about the solitary thing. The size sounds great.