Help With Alice And Her Heat

[waretrop]

Alice is about 27 or 30 pounds now. She sleeps and does her business in her bed. It is a steel cubical office printer cabinet with wheels and we cut holes in the top to screw 2 dome lites in it. Using my wonderful heat detecting gun that I got at home depot I watch the temp in there carefully. Most of it stays 92 degrees and 97 degrees but in one ares on the top of her shell it had been 107 degrees. Now the floor of that box right next to her at that same time is 95 or so.

Here are some pictures. I have posted them many times here before but for people that have not seen them, here they are.





I tape the 2 corners so she can move it over easier when she gets into the box.

 

[Yvonne G]

It might be a bit too hot in there. I like for them to be able to come out to warm up. Try keeping a light over a spot just outside the box for sitting under, and up higher, about 12" above the top of her shell. Inside the box I would go for 80F or 85F, but an all over heat, with none of it concentrated in one spot at all. I'm thinking that 107F shining on her shell is too hot. And the box is so small, she can't really get away from that heat if she wants to.

 

[waretrop]

I can lower it a little bit. Actually she moves to the temperature that she wants. We have to live with the height for just now but in a couple of weeks I will be able to change that. She really loves her box so I don't want to do anything drastic at the moment while I am changing her diet so much. I thank you for your input and will keep it in mind as we progress here. The first thing I will do is lower the temp to 85 in the box.

 

[Jodie]

I am afraid that heat on her shell is going to burn the shell. Pieces will die and peel off. They don't seem to know when the shell is burning. I would at least change the bulb to a much smaller wattage asap.

 

[Gillian M]

I am afraid that heat on her shell is going to burn the shell. Pieces will die and peel off. They don't seem to know when the shell is burning. I would at least change the bulb to a much smaller wattage asap.

Hi Jodie. Don't they feel it? I've been told by very many people here that torts do NOT feel their shells. Does your post confirm this?

Appreciate an answer. Thank you.

 

[waretrop]

Thank you Jodie I don't have lights in the box but rather 2 ceramic elements. I can change the wattage at will by changing whole elements or using the rheostat that is on it. I have been turning the temp down all day now 90 to 92 degrees. I have about 6 ceramic heat element all different watts. I always keep them in stock. Thank you for that Jodie.

Gillian Moore, I must disagree with you.....I have had all kinds of reptiles for the last 35 years and always thought like you do. Since I have taken on the adventure of Alice, she has taught me that she moves to where she likes it best for whatever reason. Even though it was too hot in one side of her box, she would sit under it for a while and then she would move over to the cooler side. I know what she was doing. Also if she got too hot at night she would just open up the curtain just a little in order to cool herself off. In the summer I quickly learned that she would come inside the hot tub room from being in the mid day heat. Then as it cooled down for the day she went outside for an afternoon snack until it began to cool down at the end of the day. then she came back in under her heat element in the hot tub.

I knew bring her into my house, in the kitchen, for our Pa winter was going to be a challenge. I say, don't say no to me just advise me and I will deal with it as best as I can. Alice has a large roaming area outside her bed. She does not try to eat the dog training pads. she understands plain simple commands very well. Go seppy nite nite,... breakfast,....come here...go outside?....

Next we will begin to play ball. She is getting the idea...so cute.

 

[SarahChelonoidis]

Hi Jodie. Don't they feel it? I've been told by very many people here that torts do NOT feel their shells. Does your post confirm this?

Appreciate an answer. Thank you.

They definitely do feel their shells, but sensation is a complicated thing. You can run your fingers over Oli's shell to observe how he reacts to different feelings in different places. Some kinds of touch they seem to like (or at least seek out - I've caught my elongated rubbing the top of his shell on a log), and some they move away from.

We feel physical sensations through receptor cells (nerve cells) in our skin. There are many different kinds of receptors that respond to different feelings at different speeds. The common types are grouped into three main classes that have rather jargony names: mechanoreceptors (these sense pressure and texture), thermoreceptors (these sense temperature), and nociceptors (these sense pain)

Tortoises have a decent density of mechanoreceptors in their shells near the surface (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-7998.1986.tb01906.x/abstract) which explains how they respond to contact sensations, but whether they have the other two receptors in their shells (for heat and pain) and at what depth they might be present, is another matter.

Certainly responses to traumatic injuries (bites or holes drilled in), suggest the presence of pain receptors at some depth in the carapace, but I don't know what the evidence is for thermoreceptors being present in the carapace at all. There are *a lot* of anecdotal reports of tortoises not responding to the top of their shells being burnt by a poorly placed light or overheating from sitting on an electric heat rock. It seems likely that while they can definitely feel mechanical sensations in the top most layers of their shells, the sensation of heat (and maybe pain) is absent. Not having thermoreceptors in their shells doesn't mean they don't have them in other fleshy parts of their body though, it just would mean they can't tell their shell is cooking until their face or legs got too warm.

To sum up: heat, pain, and touch are felt by different receptors. Tortoises feel touch all over their shells. They commonly burn themselves, seemingly without noticing, suggesting they don't feel heat in their shells and maybe not pain until it gets too deep.

(Incidentally, if anyone is familiar with studies that have identified thermo and/or nociceptors in chelonian carapaces, I'd love the references)

 

[Jodie]

Hi Jodie. Don't they feel it? I've been told by very many people here that torts do NOT feel their shells. Does your post confirm this?

Appreciate an answer. Thank you.

They feel their shells, but do not know it is burning it. When the heat is not enough, because the surrounding ambient is cold usually, to raise their body temp, they will sit under the heat source and burn the top of their shell. Search burned shell, and I bet you will find examples of this happening.

 

[waretrop]

Well, getting back to my problem. Everywhere in her bed is 87 degrees. I just hiked it up just a little bit. I worry so much about her I probably will get up a few times to check her temp with my wonderful "temp gun". It has a laser light spotting where you are aiming....you all should see Alice following that red light. She will walk in circles just following it.

Anyway, I check her temp about every 30 minutes now that I nudged the temp up a little.

My thanks again to everyone.

 

[Tom]

Here is what happens when you use CHE's or heat lamps over large tortoises: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/open-topped-pyramided-scute.19691/
Jodie and Sarah did a good job explaining it.

I would switch to a radiant heat panel and kane mat for the box and use a radiant oil heater to get the room ambient up.

 

[waretrop]

I understand. I will see what I can do right now she is fine. I promise. Too tired tonight to think any longer.....night night...

 

[Gillian M]

They feel their shells, but do not know it is burning it. When the heat is not enough, because the surrounding ambient is cold usually, to raise their body temp, they will sit under the heat source and burn the top of their shell. Search burned shell, and I bet you will find examples of this happening.

Thanks v much your reply.

 

[Gillian M]

They definitely do feel their shells, but sensation is a complicated thing. You can run your fingers over Oli's shell to observe how he reacts to different feelings in different places. Some kinds of touch they seem to like (or at least seek out - I've caught my elongated rubbing the top of his shell on a log), and some they move away from.

We feel physical sensations through receptor cells (nerve cells) in our skin. There are many different kinds of receptors that respond to different feelings at different speeds. The common types are grouped into three main classes that have rather jargony names: mechanoreceptors (these sense pressure and texture), thermoreceptors (these sense temperature), and nociceptors (these sense pain)

Tortoises have a decent density of mechanoreceptors in their shells near the surface (http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1469-7998.1986.tb01906.x/abstract) which explains how they respond to contact sensations, but whether they have the other two receptors in their shells (for heat and pain) and at what depth they might be present, is another matter.

Certainly responses to traumatic injuries (bites or holes drilled in), suggest the presence of pain receptors at some depth in the carapace, but I don't know what the evidence is for thermoreceptors being present in the carapace at all. There are *a lot* of anecdotal reports of tortoises not responding to the top of their shells being burnt by a poorly placed light or overheating from sitting on an electric heat rock. It seems likely that while they can definitely feel mechanical sensations in the top most layers of their shells, the sensation of heat (and maybe pain) is absent. Not having thermoreceptors in their shells doesn't mean they don't have them in other fleshy parts of their body though, it just would mean they can't tell their shell is cooking until their face or legs got too warm.

To sum up: heat, pain, and touch are felt by different receptors. Tortoises feel touch all over their shells. They commonly burn themselves, seemingly without noticing, suggesting they don't feel heat in their shells and maybe not pain until it gets too deep.

(Incidentally, if anyone is familiar with studies that have identified thermo and/or nociceptors in chelonian carapaces, I'd love the references)

Thanks a lot your post, which was very helpful.

 

[waretrop]

Turns out that I have known the, very smart and beautiful woman, who repaired the turtle shell for about 25 years but had lost contact with her over the years.

I have studied Alice's bed, and heat and moisture situation and will do further research on this.

Tom, I hesitate on the radiant heat panel and kane mat for the box and the use a radiant oil heater in the open space. It's not the money. It does not seem conducive with Alice. I know you probably think it would work but I will have to think hard about this.

I really appreciate all your input here. Thank you all.

 

[waretrop]

It's been just over a year since my last post here. It has been in interesting year for us and Lil Alice. She still loves in her steel cubical office printer cabinet with wheels. We kept the temp at about 85. Now we have her going out to our hot tub room from our kitchen by way of a ramp and then on out to a fenced in area outside. She is still going for many strolls during the day. Then goes to sleep in our kitchen every evening. She must be doing ok with the temps we are offering her. She is showing no signs of stress.

Thank you all.

 

[Speedy-1]

Gillian Moore, I must disagree with you.....I have had all kinds of reptiles for the last 35 years and always thought like you do. Since I have taken on the adventure of Alice, she has taught me that she moves to where she likes it best for whatever reason. Even though it was too hot in one side of her box, she would sit under it for a while and then she would move over to the cooler side. I know what she was doing. Also if she got too hot at night she would just open up the curtain just a little in order to cool herself off. In the summer I quickly learned that she would come inside the hot tub room from being in the mid day heat. Then as it cooled down for the day she went outside for an afternoon snack until it began to cool down at the end of the day. then she came back in under her heat element in the hot tub..

You are right it is called "Thermoregulation" which basically means the reptile will go where he is most comfortable , weather he needs more heat or to cool off a bit ! In fact many lizards have a 3rd or parietal eye which is the thing that helps them to find the most comfortable temp for them !