HELP Please!! (lethargic baby)

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2wgasa

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First, my usual disclaimer. I've never had a baby tort and never will because I'm too old. I was given an 11 yo, 13 now, to care for. However, I lurk on this forum and find everything posted by established members to be accurate regarding Bombers' behavior and health. I seldom post anything but can't help it this time.

And, I saw you gave TFO a good-bye, but still plan to update a diary...huh?

Anyway, you did not answer a couple of questions from another TFO member regarding your semi-covered cement mixer closure.

1. Lack of appetite is often due to temps. What are your four temps and what heating and lighting equipment are you using to maintain these? Warm side, cool side, basking area and overnight low? Open top or closed chamber? What is the room temp where the enclosure sits?

2. What type of UV are you using? The no walking followed by panicky walking makes me think pain. Could be injection site pain, or it could be eye burning pain. The fact that he'll eat when hand fed, but not go get it on his own also makes me think there might be eye damage.

"He has a partially covered enclose(sic) and it works just as well as a closed one, keeping it 80% humidity."

I don't think so.

You wrote in your diary "They chalk his weird and unique symptoms up to common ones. I know they are trying to help but it is frustrating when you're looking for answers but you just get the same thing over and over again.
No one really understands his symptoms, including me. They are so odd and severe that it is something that you have to watch to understand. But still, that doubt inside me is making me second guess his condition and wondering if he is normal. But do normal tortoises throw themselves off of things with their erratic jerky movements, and do normal tortoises refuse to eat unless hand fed?"

Again, I've never had hatchlings but I suspect some of the people posting here have seen every possible problem that can be encountered raising torts, i.e. when something is observed frequently enough, it becomes commonplace.

"EDIT:
Shortly after this, a ton of helpful patient people here confirmed definitely that it was HFS and frankly informed me that he is probably not going to make it. All I can do is offer the best conditions and pray. I guess it just took me freaking out for the facts of his condition to finally seep into my brain."

Were the ton of people who confirmed HFS on another site? I don't find them here. HFS was first introduced by you.

Please post pictures of your tort and enclosure for better advice. I know you wrote your phone is broken, but maybe somebody can lend you one for pictures.

In the meantime, I'll gladly order some Pedialyte® and baby food via Amazon if you want.
 
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First, my usual disclaimer. I've never had a baby tort and never will because I'm too old. I was given an 11 yo, 13 now, to care for. However, I lurk on this forum and find everything posted by established members to be accurate regarding Bombers' behavior and health. I seldom post anything but can't help it this time.

And, I saw you gave TFO a good-bye, but still plan to update a diary...huh?

Anyway, you did not answer a couple of questions from another TFO member regarding your semi-covered cement mixer closure.

1. Lack of appetite is often due to temps. What are your four temps and what heating and lighting equipment are you using to maintain these? Warm side, cool side, basking area and overnight low? Open top or closed chamber? What is the room temp where the enclosure sits?

2. What type of UV are you using? The no walking followed by panicky walking makes me think pain. Could be injection site pain, or it could be eye burning pain. The fact that he'll eat when hand fed, but not go get it on his own also makes me think there might be eye damage.

"He has a partially covered enclose(sic) and it works just as well as a closed one, keeping it 80% humidity."

I don't think so.

You wrote in your diary "They chalk his weird and unique symptoms up to common ones. I know they are trying to help but it is frustrating when you're looking for answers but you just get the same thing over and over again.
No one really understands his symptoms, including me. They are so odd and severe that it is something that you have to watch to understand. But still, that doubt inside me is making me second guess his condition and wondering if he is normal. But do normal tortoises throw themselves off of things with their erratic jerky movements, and do normal tortoises refuse to eat unless hand fed?"


Again, I've never had hatchlings but I suspect some of the people posting here have seen every possible problem that can be encountered raising torts, i.e. when something is observed frequently enough, it becomes commonplace.

"EDIT:
Shortly after this,
a ton of helpful patient people here confirmed definitely that it was HFS and frankly informed me that he is probably not going to make it. All I can do is offer the best conditions and pray. I guess it just took me freaking out for the facts of his condition to finally seep into my brain."

Were the ton of people who confirmed HFS on another site? I don't find them here. HFS was first introduced by you.

Please post pictures of your tort and enclosure for better advice. I know you wrote your phone is broken, but maybe somebody can lend you one for pictures.

In the meantime, I'll gladly order some Pedialyte® and baby food via Amazon if you want.

No thank you. I have already answered all of these questions. This is where my frustration comes from. HFS was first introduced to me by Tom on THIS site. His temps on the cool side are 80 degrees. I was instructed never to let them drop. He doesn't have a lack of appetite either. He just won't eat unless hand fed. He ate a whole bowl of food today. I dont have the info on the brand of the bulbs I have but one is a 100w heat bulb and one is a UVB bulb. His humididty is a CONSTANT 80% and his basking temps are 100 degrees. The room temp is 85 degrees. It is a partially covered enclosure. I believe I have answered all your questions? I dont see why people cant understand why I am leaving. I have learned all I can from this site but all of the different info I have been given has confused me even more. I want to help my tortoise, and I have taken all the advice I can, but now I can't handle all of the various contradicting responses.
 

SweetGreekTorts

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One thing I've learned, is that I'm always learning. I've kept tortoises for over 10 years, I'm currently raising 28 (14 are under a year old), and I'm still learning new things.

I do hope you'll stick around. I'm glad to hear your tortoise is eating and I hope he continues to get better. We are here to help.
 

2wgasa

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No thank you. I have already answered all of these questions. This is where my frustration comes from. HFS was first introduced to me by Tom on THIS site. His temps on the cool side are 80 degrees. I was instructed never to let them drop. He doesn't have a lack of appetite either. He just won't eat unless hand fed. He ate a whole bowl of food today. I dont have the info on the brand of the bulbs I have but one is a 100w heat bulb and one is a UVB bulb. His humididty is a CONSTANT 80% and his basking temps are 100 degrees. The room temp is 85 degrees. It is a partially covered enclosure. I believe I have answered all your questions? I dont see why people cant understand why I am leaving. I have learned all I can from this site but all of the different info I have been given has confused me even more. I want to help my tortoise, and I have taken all the advice I can, but now I can't handle all of the various contradicting responses.

Now I'm confused unless I missed one of your postings. Your first one on this thread ends with,

"Please please please help me! The reason i cant just say it is HFS is because these symptoms usually only set in in 10-14 month old torts. Please feel free to ask any and every question you have. Me and my baby really need help.

Thanks.
-Vanessa"


The post I see from Tom just provides more information about it.

  • HFS is really Breeder Failure Syndrome. It is most commonly seen in the first few weeks. Most of them that make it to 10-14 months old are not suffering from organ failure due to chronic dehydration as a brand new hatchling.
Regardless, I did have one other question I forgot to ask. You mention "amateur mistake." If you have some credentials I don't know about, then my comments/questions are misplaced and I apologize.

Okay, I will try to answer everyone's questions. I no longer think he is 2-3 wks old. I just assumed because I'm used to the growth rates of other animals. That was an amateur mistake.
 
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The first one is "HELP new baby sulcata". And the second question you have is.... confusing? I said i made an amatuer mistake. That means a beginners mistake....
 
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TOM- "Do a search here in the vendor review section for Backwater Reptiles and read some of the experiences that have been had by our members. Then all will be clear.

Then read this for more explanation about what is likely coming your way: https://tortoiseforum.org/threads/hatchling-failure-syndrome.23493/

I hate being the bearer of bad news, but even though it sucks to hear, I think its better to know what is going on than to wonder and feel like you've done something wrong or cared for the new baby incorrectly. Its also best to know before spending hundreds of pointless dollars at a vet's office. Unfortunately, if the baby was started wrong, no vet can save it. All you can do is offer optimal care and conditions and hope for the best. Some of them make, so its definitely worth the effort to give it your best shot.

Please feel free to ask all your questions. Happy to explain anything that needs more clarification. Hoping for the best for you and yours! "
 

2wgasa

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Then my apologies. I didn't find that thread when looking for your postings to avoid redundancy.

Very best of luck with Pip.
 

mark1

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  • Babies cannot handle meds. Most of the time administering any sort of injection begins a downward spiral. ……………………..……………………..……….... A tiny little babies already taxed system cannot handle harsh drugs
is this conclusion from personal experience or has it been documented ? my experiences have been contradictory to this …………. I believe antibiotic prophylaxis increases a premature human neonates chance of survival ? they're a pretty fragile form of life themselves .…….. personally I think there is a lot of conflating as to what actually kills tortoises that are brought to the vet ……. as a last resort you bring an animal at deaths door to the vet , the animal dies , it must have been what the vet did …………….
 

Tom

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is this conclusion from personal experience or has it been documented ? my experiences have been contradictory to this …………. I believe antibiotic prophylaxis increases a premature human neonates chance of survival ? they're a pretty fragile form of life themselves .…….. personally I think there is a lot of conflating as to what actually kills tortoises that are brought to the vet ……. as a last resort you bring an animal at deaths door to the vet , the animal dies , it must have been what the vet did …………….
What does a 9 pound human in a modern hospital have to do with a vet injecting caustic chemicals into a 29 gram reptile? Nothing.

My statement is based on what I've seen. Might some of those have died if they hadn't gone to the vet and gotten injected with something? Sure. That is possible. Might they have lived a little longer, or possibly pulled through if the vet hadn't injected them with harsh chemicals in their already weakened and delicate state? Also a possibility.
 

mark1

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the word "might" and "possibly" would personally keep me from interjecting such an opinion as fact , but that's just me …….. my nephews were born at 25 weeks , twins , they weighed them in grams , they weren't a lb ……….. you could see through their skin , they were looking for the slightest reason to die …… I guarantee you 1000000000 times more fragile than a tortoise hatchling ,and I believe they use vancomycin on them , i'm thinking about as "harsh"/potent as antibiotics get …………. I've treated 20-30 gram turtles with obvious pneumonias with amikacin , fortaz , and baytril , with excellent results , no might or possibly about that …...……….
 

wellington

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@wellington This has become very confusing because of different threads. Is there a way you could put her other threads into this one? For some continuity...thanks!
They have 3 other threads about this same situation. I think it will confuse things more if they are merged. I dont know. Maybe seeing they want too bow out it's best just leaving things. She's already confused, probably all the threads was a bad idea on her part. She got all the info needed at this point. Any new help would need to have her answer some questions asked and provide pics. They dont seem willing.
 

Tom

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the word "might" and "possibly" would personally keep me from interjecting such an opinion as fact , but that's just me …….. my nephews were born at 25 weeks , twins , they weighed them in grams , they weren't a lb ……….. you could see through their skin , they were looking for the slightest reason to die …… I guarantee you 1000000000 times more fragile than a tortoise hatchling ,and I believe they use vancomycin on them , i'm thinking about as "harsh"/potent as antibiotics get …………. I've treated 20-30 gram turtles with obvious pneumonias with amikacin , fortaz , and baytril , with excellent results , no might or possibly about that …...……….
Go argue with someone else. I'm tired of your nonsense.
 

mark1

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didn't mean to upset you bud , I got nothing to "argue" with you about …….. good to be open minded , but I am careful what I let in ………. possibly just a different view on what constitutes "nonsense" ………. to me , saying something like "when they're started wrong they're doomed , nothing anyone can do" , followed by "a vet will make it worse" ????? worse than dead ????? maybe just me , but that is a bit nonsensical ………. or I personally started them "dry" prior to 2008 , but none of mine ever died …….. or I was given many baby desert tortoises kept dry , dehydrated to near death , but I only ever lost one , seems just a little "nonsensical" to me ? or fortaz is a new better baytril , it's not new , nor is it anything like baytril , nonsense ……. baby tortoises cannot withstand antibiotics , nonsense ………. if your vet uses baytril they don't know what they're doing , nonsense …….. if your vet suggest a vitamin shot they are clueless , nonsense ……… if your vet prescribes antibiotics without running a culture , or test of some sort they are inept , complete nonsense ………. conclusions drawn based on "probably so" and "maybe not" , nonsense …….

I read one time that it was estimated antibiotics save 200,000,000 lives a year , not bad for a bunch of "caustic chemicals" ……. I know i'd have less animals than I got right now without them …….. honestly i'd have none , as I'd have died a couple times already ………… hopefully this wasn't too big of a leap of logic for you ???????
 
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