Hello - New & in need of help

[G_Vincey]

Hi all...

My name is Gary and I am new to the world of Tortoises..

I have recently acquired a lovely little Russian tortoise called 'Theo'.. Although, I have some concerns about him and would like some experienced opinions..

So my set up is..
A tortoise table, measuring 77 cm x 42 cm x 12 cm

The substrate is as follows:
3/4 of the table - A mix of 1 bag of soil and 1-2 bag of sand, both bought from pets at home
1/4 of the table - tortoise grass like pellets bought from a reptile store..

An Arcadia d3 mini uv basking lamp (mercury combination one) with ceramic holder.. 27cm from substrate at one end of the table..

and then water dish, food dish, soaking dish and half a coconut to rest under.. I also have some calcium powder and tortoise food pellets, little pink ones (different to the substrate pellets mentioned earlier) and I have just ordered some cuttlefish bone..

So, here's the basics..
I bought my tortoise online and was told that he came with the table and necessary lighting etc.. However, after travelling a very long way to get him, I find out that there is no lamp and only a red (normal house looking bulb), also I was not given a choice as to what tortoise I could have, I was simply handed him, so he could be the runt of the litter for all I know, needless to say, I still love him..
But, I got him on a Friday, and because of the lighting situation, it was too late to get one, so I used the red bulb that came with him in a normal bedside lamp until the pet store was open...
So I went to the pet store, got the bulb and ceramic holder, went home to install it and the filament in the bulb was broken.. I had to wait til Monday when the new deliveries had arrived as I had purchased the last one.. Therefore, Theo was without uv light for at least 4 days and I don't know what conditions he was living in before hand...
During these four days, he didn't eat and was hardly moving..
When I got the uv light, I installed it and he basked under it for maybe 6 hours, but it was around 11 at night, so considering the cycles, I wanted to turn it off in order to leave it on for a full 12 hours the next day.. After his 6 hour bask I fed him water cress and he maybe had 5-6 strands and that was it..
Also during these four days the only time he excreted urine or faeces was when I was bathing him..
So yesterday, I left the uv light on from 11am til 11 pm and he was under it all day.. And after I turned it off, I fed him lettuce which he ate maybe a leaf and a half (lettuce leaf so quite big) and some cabbage and a little bit of water cress..
So his eating has improved under the uv lamp from what I can tell..

But the thing is, I'm worried he's not eating as much as he should be.. I am sprinkling calcium powder on all of his food and his poo seemed normal and wet looking, I didn't notice any worms in it, but to be fair, I learned about the potential for worms after I had cleaned it so didn't know to check.. I did clean it straight away as he did it while I was watching him..
When he urinated, the white metabolites seemed soft and liquid-like. However, a minute later he wee'd again and this time the white metabolites were hard and almost like one pellet of white poo.. So I researched this and it said he could be dehydrated, I have bathed him every other day.. This poo and wee I'm speaking of happened after his initial 6 hour bask under the uv lamp..

So as he wasn't eating on his own, I did more research and decided that now that I had a full enough set up with the uv light, I would start to weigh and measure him to keep notes..

He is LxWxH (including head, not just his shell) - 70mm x 50mm x 25mm
And according to the McIntyre ratio thing he should weigh 49/50g.. However, Theo only weighs 39.8/39.9g.. So he is 10g underweight..

Now when I bought him I was told he was around 3 months old.. Although he is 7cm long so I think he is closer to a year old.. But I'm thinking, a tortoise this young surely shouldn't be 10g underweight..

The thing is, I have spent a lot of money on him, and at this particular time cannot afford to have a vet look at him.. I was under the impression he would be vet assessed already.. And now I'm concerned..

Is it a case of him seriously lacking UVB and therefore not wanting to eat etc, or do you think he could be sick etc.
His eating has improved slightly since the uv has come but again it's only been a day and a half.. So I can't really tell, and he doesn't seem as active as other Russians I watch online, he won't walk around his table but will walk around when I put him in the garden or on the floor..

Please help me with whatever advice you can.. I have read care sheets and am not looking for them specifically but more personal opinions..

Also, he seems to prefer the pellet like substrate for burrowing and he doesn't seem to be interested in the soil/sand mix, although I read that that's the 'preferred' substrate.. All he seems to do is burrow, despite it being close to summer..

From what I can tell, he's eyes seem normal, his nose is not runny and his tongue seems a clear pink.
Although, he seems to do this thing with his arms where it looks as though he is wiping his eyes or blocking his eyes.. At first I thought the light might be too bright for him, but the light is 27cm away from the substrate..
The thing is, he doesn't seem to actively seek out the food or water I leave for him, but he seems to know where the food is when I am feeding him.. He doesn't walk in circles but I'm worried about his eyesight because of this arm movement.. Is he trying to protect his eyes? Or is he just moving sand/soil from his face...

I know this is extremely long and probably full of unnecessary information.. With questions all over the place? And not structured.. But I have written this on my phone as my laptop isn't working.. Please forgive the full stops and grammar etc.
Any help would be greatly appreciated.. Thank you for your time and patience..

I can post pictures of the set up and Theo if that helps...

Again, the vet is not an ideal option atm due to funds but I will definitely be booking a visit when I can afford to.. But until then, is there anyway I can tell whether he is sick or has parasites or anything like that.. Or is it due to the lighting and other factors etc.

Again sorry it's long, I have just tried to include everything..

 

[Grandpa Turtle 144]

Hello Gary welcome to the TFO from AZ . I love Russians and I have a few . But Picts of the tort and it's enclosure are a lot of help and were you live help . Because I don't want to tell you to put your tort outside to find you live in Iceland . But if it was me I would start with throwing out the sand and pellets and the red light !


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[ascott]

Hello....well, a couple of things that I would do straight away is remove all sand from the substrate...it can irritate eyes, stick to food, stick to the tort and be ingested --which can lead to a terrible impaction of the torts gut...which can be seen in loss of appetite and interest in activity....

I would use an organic earth type substrate and make the substrate as deep as possible (while not allowing the height of the substrate to allow the tort to go awol)...

I would also do daily warm water soaks for a couple weeks and then re evaluate the consistency of the urates expelled, you want them to be watery to none at all....so hydrate away for at least the next couple of weeks....I would also offer up some wet type foods to allow hydration to be taken in with the food....like some romaine/red and green leaf lettuce--not the entire meal but some offered in.

I also would lay off of the calcium sprinkled on every meal..perhaps once or twice a week....I would also invest some time into researching greens high in calcium to help offset the calcium powder (calcium powder is very bitter and some torts simply will not consume food with it on it)...

What temps are you offering in the enclosure....what is the basking spot temp, what is the middle enclosure temp and what is the coolest side temps...these are very important to the overall well being of your tort...

 

[G_Vincey]

Hi Grandpa Turtle 144.. I live in London.. So the weather is pretty unpredictable and not ideal for him.. I will post photos now.. Also the red light went as soon as the uv light came.. I just used it to give him extra heat...

Hi Ascott.. I will proceed to change the substrate immediately.. He did seem to avoid the calcium powdered parts of the lettuce, now that you say that..

Under the light was 30.1 C and the cooler end was 23.5 and the housing was 21-22.. And when I turned the light off it remains 23.5 throughout.. I will post pictures now

 

[ascott]

You will really want to achieve more like 95-98f for heat under the basking light....the cooler scale in the remainder of the enclosure is good....I would try to keep the middle area of the enclosure near 78f and allow the cool end to drop to no less than 70f...and if your home drops below 70 in the night (or the enclosure drops to much lower than that with the lights turned off, I would offer a gentle night heat source --like a black night heat lamp or a ceramic heat emitter).....

 

[G_Vincey]

At night the whole table is around 23.5/23.6 c.. Is that okay or too cold..
Should I move the light closer to achieve the extra 4/5C for basking?

 

[Grandpa Turtle 144]

Thank you Gary for the reply and it looks like you now have plenty of help . Have a great tort day !


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[ascott]

The cooler night temps are alright...but are you sure you are actually maintaining those temps after the lights are shut off? If you pull the light closer to the tort just make sure that it is still at the proper distance per manufacturer recommendation so that the uv rays are not too close....and Grandpa is absolutely correct, out door time is the best...whenever the temps are good I would get the tort outdoors as well....you will see a different personable tort out doors vs one remaining indoors....Also, if you cover part of the top of the enclosure then that will help in balancing out the warmth and such...

 

[G_Vincey]

Okay I think this link should work for pictures.. Please let me know:
http://s1243.photobucket.com/user/garyvince/library/Mobile Uploads?sort=3&page=1

I've been awake all night and have has an eye on the thermometer.. It remained at 23.5 under the light and moved up to 23.6 in the middle.. I assumed it would be cooler in his house enclosure at the other end.. There is also a piece of towel for extra warmth..

On the box the recommendation is around 20cm distance but that has a picture of a gecko or lizard so I'm not sure if it's the same for tortoises..

Thanks grandpa turtle.. Also I have waited for a day good enough to bring him outside, I read that if it's cool enough to walk around with just a tshirt then that's okay for him to be outside, so I took him out on the only day like that so far and he was much more mobile.. Today seems sunny so I will take him out later..

Let me know about the photos guys and again thanks for your help..

 

[ascott]

Please don't take anything any other way that I am just sharing what I see and what I would do...okay

When I look at the torts eyes, they seem a bit swollen and slightly closed....also, the torts nails are a little long and the shell is beginning to slope some...so, here is what I think would be helpful...

Remove all of the pellet substrate, remove the entire enclosure substrate (the reason I say this is that the dirt stuff you show in the pic has the small white pieces of stuff in it...this can be ingested and if the tort is not well hydrated, the pieces can clog the tort up....I would use something like coco coir, I would hand pack it down really firmly so that this tort has a firm ground to walk about on....the pellets and the fluffy substrate there does not allow for a firm ground to walk on, the tort may eventually have issues with splay legs from nothing to push against while walking....firm ground is important.

I also would cover 3/4 of the top of the enclosure to keep balance in the warmth and also a touch of humidity....I also would not necessarily drop that light too close, the eyes of the tort appear already swollen, so if the uv rays are too close it may create further irritation....you can perhaps just add a regular incandescent bulb in a fixture next to the uv bulb, this will allow you the ability to bump the temps without having to mess with the uv bulb....

 

[G_Vincey]

No I asked for your advice and opinions and that's what you are giving me so thank you...

So remove the whole substrate and replace it with just coco coir or organic top soil as well?..

How do I increase humidity? By covering 3/4 of the enclosure?

I'm getting a steady 32C under the uv lamp now and that's without moving it at all..

What should I do about his eyes and his nails.. His eyes may be swollen I'm not sure but I believe the reason they weren't open that wide is because I had just woke him up to take the pictures.. They are usually more widely open then that

Also what should I do about his nails?

 

[Yourlocalpoet]

Hi Vincey

I'm up north, well, Yorkshire and it don't know about you but there's been quite a bit of rain this week, so I feel your pain! The weekend is apparently set to be lovely though so give him plenty of time out in the sunshine and once comfortable will probably graze.
As mentioned before, the covering the eyes may be due to the sand...
If he is eating something then that's good, just get rid of those food pellets, they're rubbish.
Florette crispy salad/spring mix, spring greens or kale you should be able to buy at the supermarket, he may eat more if you offer these. Also, dandelions - never seen a tortoise refuse them!
He may just be getting used to his new surroundings, and will eat on his own when he's feeling more secure. Carry on with soaking, everyday, if you can.
Welcome to TFO.

 

[Natalie Jean]

Hi Gary, my name is Natalie and I live in Cornwall. I have a Hermanns and am no expert by any means! Just wanted to share some stuff I learnt from this forum. I changed my substrate from woodchips and that pellet stuff that the pet shop sold me to coco coir (bought from pets at home 2blocks for £5 which was plenty) I was unsure that Noah wouldn't like it very much after not being used to it at all but she just lives it now! Also I had special food and water bowls like you do also but read so much on here about how dangerous the water ones can be for torts. I don't know about yours but are they very very smooth inside making it hard for tort to get any grip? This week I went to wilkinson and bought (for less then £2) a terracotta plant pot bottom dish thing to use for both soaking And drinking water- I just change the water often to keep it clean but it may save some space? Also offers the tort lower sides to climb and some grip. I use a big slab of slate to offer weeds on and rocks in the enclosure which all help to keep nails and beak down. Hope this is of some help?! Like I said no expert at all but just what I do, good luck x

 

[Natalie Jean]

Also forgot to mention that I sprinkle the food every other day with nutrobal also bought from pets at home.

 

[G_Vincey]

Hi yourlocalpoet, yeah the weather here has been just as bad.. As soon as the weathers better, possibly today I will let him run around outside... I'll be sure to get him a variety of better foods and will search for some dandelions.. I will also remove the substrate as suggested..

Hi Natalie, yeah the shops really misguide you, well they did with me.. When you say you switched to coco coir, how did you go about it? Did you cover the entire floor, and if so how deep did you make it... It was suggested to pack it firmly which is something I never thought of, but will he still be able to burrow in it if it is firmly packed..
Also do you have any soil with yours or simply coco coir?...

I was worried about the water dish.. I'm trying to find a small stone slab to feed him off and I only fill the water to a shallow level. But I think they are smooth inside as you describe, so could be a problem.. I'm hoping the stone slab will help with the nails and beak as well as the cuttlefish bone, although I'm not sure if they will be enough or whether I will need to trim them..

Thanks for you me advice and insights ladies.. I Appreciate it x

 

[G_Vincey]

Also Natalie, the dust I am currently using is calci-dust which I got from petsathome although he seems to eat around it..
How do your Hermans embrace the nutrobal?

 

[Yourlocalpoet]

I also have a concrete part in my outdoor pen which helps to file down the nails. And, if you look in the enclosure forum you should find plenty of examples of substrate usage.

I don't buy anything from Pets at Home, they're useless and, as you said, pretty misleading. Most of my stuff is from Wilko's, B & Q or eBay.

 

[G_Vincey]

Okay, so it seems I definitely need to get a slab to trim his nails..

I'll have a look in that section now, thank you...

I will stop by Wilko and BBQ today and see what I can find.. Thanks again..

 

[Yvonne G]

I'm curious why you feed him after you turn off the light. In nature, here's how it goes:

The tortoise comes out of his over-night sleeping place and sits in the sun for an hour or so to warm up. Then he goes wandering around looking for food. After he has eaten he goes back into hiding through the heat of the day, coming out again just before dark to forage some more.

So buy a timer and set it for the light to come on at 7a and go off at 7p. Put the food out in the morning so there's something there for him to eat all day long. Soak him daily in warm water for about 15 minutes. And don't worry about long toenails. Russian tortoises' nails are a little long looking.

Your main problem is the temperature inside the habitat. You need it to be 100F or so directly under the light, going to about 80-85F on one end and down to room temperature (but not cooler than 70F) at the other end. If you aren't able to achieve a gradient like that, then your habitat is too small.

 

[G_Vincey]

Hi Yvonne,
I don't necessarily feed him after the lights go off... I left the food in his enclosure for him to happily eat himself all day and he didn't touch it, so when I turnt the light off I went to move to food and water and tried to give him some and he ate it, so I gave him more.. The point is I don't want to force feed him, I want him to find food for himself...

I will get a timer to accustom him to them hours..

I will also double check the temperatures again and post updates... Thank you

Btw Ascott, I got two block of coco coir today and could not find organic top soil in B&Q.. I will replace the substrate now..
Also got a hygrometer today..