Hello from Alexandria, Virginia!!! Counting all my mistakes!

1wildtiger

Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2020
Messages
71
Location (City and/or State)
Alexandria VA
Hello from Alexandria, Virginia!!

I am a huge animal lover and have had all kinds of animals/reptiles throughout the years. I currently am a mom to 2 Chihuahuas, a Pomeranian, a guinea pig, a rescue red eared slider and now 2 juvenile Eastern Hermann’s tortoises. I lost my beloved 27 year old Double-Yellow Head Amazon parrot, Cooper (who I had since he was 5 months old), to stomach cancer last September. I was so heartbroken. I needed something to help fill that void. I guess that would be my first mistake. I did some research online but clearly not enough. I ended up purchasing two (I know, I know!) baby E. Hermann’s, hopefully females. When I received them at the end of September, 2019, they were much smaller than I anticipated for a 6 month old to be. But the breeder gave me their hatch date and swore they were born last March. These are my very first tortoises and I am realizing now that there was a bit more I should have researched before acquiring them. Thank goodness I have found this site!!! Now I know my second mistake was buying two! But I am totally smitten! Introducing Tikki and Tavi. ????

I’m going to give you the extremely long version of everything I’ve done so far. Sorry. Please accept my apology if I bore you to death! Any input would be greatly appreciated.

I initially had them in a Rubbermaid container with the Plantation Soil topped with Reptibark as the substrate. I sprayed it often and covered it at night.

They loved it and were burrowing most of the time. I noticed though that they would rub their little eyes quite often and blink a lot and when I soaked them it seemed like their eyes were a bit swollen. I took them to my exotic vet and she said that I should remove the substrate for now and keep them on something that wouldn’t irritate their eyes. I switched to the reptile carpet. (I can hear the gasps now)! Was that my third mistake? I made a very nice home and they actually seemed to enjoy climbing around, basking and eating. They quit rubbing their eyes too. They had a fake rock cave to go in when they wanted to sleep and I sprayed the container every chance I got to try to keep the humidity up. I was told 40-70% was good. I used the basking bulbs and UVB bulbs from the pet store (I know...fourth mistake) and maintained the correct temperatures throughout.

They were growing pretty fast so they graduated from the plastic container to a brand new 4’x2’ wooden tabletop enclosure that I had a friend build for me. It seemed pretty huge for those little babies at the time. I guess that’s my fifth mistake.

I lined it with thick shelf liner and it has the covered area that they can go into when they want. I continued using the carpet and added the Reptifogger (set on a timer to go on for 10-15 minutes every hour, except at night) to help with humidity.

I know that it was not keeping it humid enough, according to what I’m reading on here. So, about a month ago I finally switched them to a few inches of fine coco coir topped with coco coir husk chips. They really seem to enjoy their environment. I pour bottled or distilled water all over every morning and use the spray bottle to wet it down a few times a day. I still have the fogger set up. I am not keeping really high humidity but definitely better than before. I’m using a CHE, basking light and Reptisun T5 HO with a 10.0 UVB bulb. (I just switched from the 5.0 bulb after reading somewhere that Tom said the 5.0 doesn’t put out enough UVB.) I am looking into buying a UVA/UVB tester. I have one of those UVB Reptisun 10.0 dome lights going half a day too. Is that somewhere between six and seven mistakes?? I’m going to quit counting now lol. ?

The temps are pretty good. Ambient is around 78-82, basking spot is 95-100, and their cooler spot is around 68-70. They can climb on the half log under the CHE for another warm spot if they want also. I soak under the log for a humid hide and that actually stays humid because it’s backed up to the side of the wall. They go in every once in a while. After reading the care sheets, I will be removing the mini Reptisun 10.0 light in the mini dome. I will swap out the Repti Basking Spot bulb for a flood light but am wondering...doesn’t it have the UVA that they need? Unfortunately, I haven’t set up an outdoor enclosure yet so I only get to have them outside for bits at a time. Probably not enough. They do love to bask. They will get up and climb around their enclosure, maybe go into the closed section for a nap, come out, eat a snack and go back to basking. Finally, in the late afternoon to early evening, they will retire for the night. We get up at 4-5am so they’re ready for bed pretty early. They burrow down in the closed section in their rock cave (it’s their dry space with some hay mixed in) or under the half log. (Most times together, some times apart, in either place.) I’ll turn off the lights, leave the CHE on over the half log and cover the top of the enclosure as best I can with tin foil and a Rubbermaid top. Sometimes one of them might go up on top of the log if they decide to warm up more in the early morning. It’s never below 68-70 in the covered part. The humidity is pretty good overnight.

When I uncover them in the morning, especially on the weekends when I sleep in, they both are usually getting themselves up and moving and waiting on me! I get them out, weigh them and then soak them for one hour. Two hours on the weekends and yes, I am constantly changing to warm water. They take their big ol’ poops and it’s back home for some breakfast!!

So now...about their food. I haven’t planted anything for them yet. I’m learning more about that from you guys. I do take them outside for some sun and they gobble up the little three leaf clovers and hibiscus (Rose of Sharon kind) that I have in my yard. I feed them a variety of the grocery store stuff and add vitamins a few days a week and a sprinkle of calcium one day a week. They do have a cuttlebone available too, which they nibble on now and then. The food I offer them is a mix of dandelion, arugula, mustard greens if available, radicchio, red leaf lettuce, watercress (they don’t care for that as much), cooked carrot shreds, a little green pepper and some days a tiny bit of cantaloupe (their favorite) or tomato. I add the hibiscus flowers a few times a week. I copied down Tom’s list of things I should try to give them. I’m going to work on finding or growing some of those items. I ordered some cactus pads online and am just waiting for them to come. Please tell me what I may be doing wrong as far as food, other than the fact it’s from the grocery store.

Now about pyramiding. I’m afraid they might be starting to pyramid. Is the damage already done because of keeping them on the reptile carpet too long? It seems like they just started looking like this. Am I freaking out? Yes!! I’ve tried so hard to keep humidity up!

I’m trying to come up with a plan for a closed chamber home or adding on to my tabletop. They definitely need a bigger space. I think they’re still too small to live full time outside during the summer. I have a red tailed hawk, raccoons, possum and fox that frequent my yard so I’d be afraid of that. In the future I’ll get a secure structure built for them but for now I’ll take them outside with me for supervised sun bathing.

So, thank you for any help you can provide. I am obsessed with them and love them so much! I know I will have to separate them at some point. So far there’s not any bickering...yet. But for now I want to make sure what I’m doing is what’s right for their health. I love reading all the posts on here and seeing all the pictures. I’m not sure if this will come through okay. I had the pictures injected throughout the paragraphs but they might all clump up together at the beginning or end. Sorry so long! I look forward to my time on the forum!! Thank you!!!

⁃ BECKY

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solidsounds17

Active Member
Joined
May 24, 2020
Messages
153
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Inglewood, Ca
Definitely still to small to be placed outside. If you’re on a budget, I know plenty members here have success with grow tents. In terms of food, I know veggies and fruit are a big no no unless your species is tropical. I would double check the care sheet on here to see what foods are okay and which are not. Last thing and probably the one you don’t want to hear. It’s not recommended to keep torts in pair.
 

KarenSoCal

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Tortoise Club
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Low desert 50 mi SE of Palm Springs CA
Hello, Becky, and welcome to the forum!

I want to congratulate you! You found us, read the care sheets, identified many things in your husbandry that needed improvement, and are making the needed changes on your own. Believe me when I say you are a one in a million! Most of the time new keepers come on with a list of problems, but then are reluctant to make changes. You are a breath of fresh air!

Now, you are already addressing most of what needs to be changed. I am curious...are their eyes still OK? Usually sore eyes are from using UVB bulbs that are spiral or "compact". In your case maybe it really was the substrate.

Take the hay out, and don't use it any more. It molds quickly when it gets wet.

Take out the Reptisun spot basking bulb. They are not good for the shells because they are spot. A flood bulb is best...you said you are getting that.

You already installed a tube fluorescent UVB...good for you. That only needs to be on for 3-4 hours during midday, maybe 11AM-3:00PM, or 12:00 -3:00. If you can get them outside for an hour 3 or 4 times a week, you don't need the indoor UVB. But I know you have the predator issues, so that takes precedence.

Tomatoes, cantaloupe, peppers, and carrots should not be fed. Most torts do not have the ability to process sugars, and they can mess up their guts. Leafy greens, weeds, etc are best. Tom's list is your resource on foods.

The pyramiding is because they have been too dry. It has nothing to do with having had them on reptile carpet. As you have read, a closed chamber is the way to go. If cost doesn't matter, one of @Markw84 's enclosures is the best there is. You could buy two of them, or maybe buy the add-on and make an enclosure 8 ft long. Put in a divider and you would have them separated. Contact Mark by PM if interested.

Another way that works well is a grow tent. Or two. Several members have done this and they make great closed chambers for not much money. Here's one ...
20200601_124955.jpg

We have members who could help you if you'd like to go this route.

The humidity in the chamber should never drop below 80%, day or night, especially since you are trying to stop the pyramiding process that has started. What is there will never go away, but as new smooth growth takes place, it will look a bit less obvious.

Finally, I think your temp are too low. Basking is good. The coolest spot in the enclosure should never drop below 80°F. And at night it should not drop below 80°. They need that warmth to protect them from getting a RI since they are in a damp environment.
 

1wildtiger

Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2020
Messages
71
Location (City and/or State)
Alexandria VA
Definitely still to small to be placed outside. If you’re on a budget, I know plenty members here have success with grow tents. In terms of food, I know veggies and fruit are a big no no unless your species is tropical. I would double check the care sheet on here to see what foods are okay and which are not. Last thing and probably the one you don’t want to hear. It’s not recommended to keep torts in pair.
Definitely still to small to be placed outside. If you’re on a budget, I know plenty members here have success with grow tents. In terms of food, I know veggies and fruit are a big no no unless your species is tropical. I would double check the care sheet on here to see what foods are okay and which are not. Last thing and probably the one you don’t want to hear. It’s not recommended to keep torts in pair.
Welcome to the Forum, Becky!
 

Ink

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Welcome to the forum, from N. Chesterfield! I love the extra scutes. Too cute. I have a Western Hermann, Eastern Hermann and a Leopard. Good luck
 

1wildtiger

Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2020
Messages
71
Location (City and/or State)
Alexandria VA
Hello, Becky, and welcome to the forum!

I want to congratulate you! You found us, read the care sheets, identified many things in your husbandry that needed improvement, and are making the needed changes on your own. Believe me when I say you are a one in a million! Most of the time new keepers come on with a list of problems, but then are reluctant to make changes. You are a breath of fresh air!

Now, you are already addressing most of what needs to be changed. I am curious...are their eyes still OK? Usually sore eyes are from using UVB bulbs that are spiral or "compact". In your case maybe it really was the substrate.

Take the hay out, and don't use it any more. It molds quickly when it gets wet.

Take out the Reptisun spot basking bulb. They are not good for the shells because they are spot. A flood bulb is best...you said you are getting that.

You already installed a tube fluorescent UVB...good for you. That only needs to be on for 3-4 hours during midday, maybe 11AM-3:00PM, or 12:00 -3:00. If you can get them outside for an hour 3 or 4 times a week, you don't need the indoor UVB. But I know you have the predator issues, so that takes precedence.

Tomatoes, cantaloupe, peppers, and carrots should not be fed. Most torts do not have the ability to process sugars, and they can mess up their guts. Leafy greens, weeds, etc are best. Tom's list is your resource on foods.

The pyramiding is because they have been too dry. It has nothing to do with having had them on reptile carpet. As you have read, a closed chamber is the way to go. If cost doesn't matter, one of @Markw84 's enclosures is the best there is. You could buy two of them, or maybe buy the add-on and make an enclosure 8 ft long. Put in a divider and you would have them separated. Contact Mark by PM if interested.

Another way that works well is a grow tent. Or two. Several members have done this and they make great closed chambers for not much money. Here's one ...
View attachment 304650

We have members who could help you if you'd like to go this route.

The humidity in the chamber should never drop below 80%, day or night, especially since you are trying to stop the pyramiding process that has started. What is there will never go away, but as new smooth growth takes place, it will look a bit less obvious.

Finally, I think your temp are too low. Basking is good. The coolest spot in the enclosure should never drop below 80°F. And at night it should not drop below 80°. They need that warmth to protect them from getting a RI since they are in a damp environment.
 

1wildtiger

Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2020
Messages
71
Location (City and/or State)
Alexandria VA
Hello and thank you!! I am definitely working on getting new enclosures and the humidity!! I would like to see what Mark has to offer. I wish I’d found the information on this site before I purchased two little torts!! But I will do what is necessary for their wellbeing. I’m trying to find more of the approved foods for them. I cut out the fruit and carrots and green peppers today. Will keep working on that ASAP! I am waiting on some cactus pads that I ordered as well. Got rid of the mini dome and will try get the flood light today so I can swap out the spot light. I have another CHE that I’ll put on them too. Thank you so much!!! Hope I can get this right!! ?
 

1wildtiger

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Joined
Apr 27, 2020
Messages
71
Location (City and/or State)
Alexandria VA
Welcome to the Forum, Becky!
Hello and thank you!! I’m still trying to navigate the site from my iPhone! I apologize for all of the pictures!! I definitely am glad I found you guys and look forward to learning as much as possible!! ?
 
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KarenSoCal

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Tortoise Club
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Messages
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Location (City and/or State)
Low desert 50 mi SE of Palm Springs CA
Hello and thank you!! I am definitely working on getting new enclosures and the humidity!! I would like to see what Mark has to offer. I wish I’d found the information on this site before I purchased two little torts!! But I will do what is necessary for their wellbeing. I’m trying to find more of the approved foods for them. I cut out the fruit and carrots and green peppers today. Will keep working on that ASAP! I am waiting on some cactus pads that I ordered as well. Got rid of the mini dome and will try get the flood light today so I can swap out the spot light. I have another CHE that I’ll put on them too. Thank you so much!!! Hope I can get this right!! ?

Don't worry...we'll get it right! :)

Contact Mark by private message. He will answer all your questions. His enclosures come already outfitted with top of the line equipment. You will love them!
 

Skip K

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Mar 4, 2020
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407
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Virginia
Welcome to the forum. I’m right next door (figuratively speaking ) in Springfield.
 

Skip K

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Mar 4, 2020
Messages
407
Location (City and/or State)
Virginia
If you’d like you can see our outdoor enclosures and can give you tips on what you can plant outside...that will tolerate our seasons...for natural tort food
 

Tom

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@1wildtiger

I agree with Karen. You are awesome. Sounds like you already understand most of what to do, but feel free to question any of this info any time. We are here to talk tortoises. :)

Just a couple of things I noticed: The pair thing is a problem. There doesn't have to be outward obvious hostility for it to be a problem. They just don't do well in pairs, not at any age.

Also, it doesn't have to be all indoors or all outdoors. I believe the BEST way to do it is to have both. Use the outdoor enclosure on nice days and when its convenient, and leave them indoors in their enclosure the rest of the time. I put them outside more and more as they gain size. They don't ever have to live outside 100% of the time. You can put them outside in the daytime, and bring them in at night forever if you want to.

There are many ways to do this correctly. Everyone has their own preferences and experiences. I put my way in the care sheet with lots of explanation, but they can stay indoors all the time too, if need be. There are ways to do it successfully.
 

Skip K

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Joined
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Messages
407
Location (City and/or State)
Virginia
@1wildtiger

I agree with Karen. You are awesome. Sounds like you already understand most of what to do, but feel free to question any of this info any time. We are here to talk tortoises. :)

Just a couple of things I noticed: The pair thing is a problem. There doesn't have to be outward obvious hostility for it to be a problem. They just don't do well in pairs, not at any age.

Also, it doesn't have to be all indoors or all outdoors. I believe the BEST way to do it is to have both. Use the outdoor enclosure on nice days and when its convenient, and leave them indoors in their enclosure the rest of the time. I put them outside more and more as they gain size. They don't ever have to live outside 100% of the time. You can put them outside in the daytime, and bring them in at night forever if you want to.

There are many ways to do this correctly. Everyone has their own preferences and experiences. I put my way in the care sheet with lots of explanation, but they can stay indoors all the time too, if need be. There are ways to do it successfully.
Well put as usual, Tom. Everyone has their own quirks about husbandry. About the indoor/outdoor debate...I agree totally with what you say. I see too much well intentioned advice that lacks one important point. Not everyone has the same situation. Geographic location...financial constraints ...availability of resources...space...etc. Many issues can be overcome with creative thinking. I love having the torts outside...but full time is not possible. Could have weeks of drought or weeks of torrential rain here. We can have mild to bad winters. Even though our outdoor enclosures are winged and 4 legged predator proof...they are not 2 legged predator proof. I would not trust in my location...heated “barns” during winter months. Another reason I like to bring the torts in at night and in winter...is it helps in inspecting them daily for potential issues. Do I like to have them in for the winter? ...NO...their indoor enclosures are not as big as I would like ( this could change). But with all other aspects of husbandry correct and routine indoor exercise to keep muscles from atrophying...it works out.
 
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OkAdiza

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469
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Virginia
Welcome to the forum! Down near Richmond, Va now, but I was born in Alexandria, grew up in Reston. I have 2 torts, one is an Eastern Hermann's. Glad you found the forum and were able to make great changes for them. All the best!
 

1wildtiger

Member
Joined
Apr 27, 2020
Messages
71
Location (City and/or State)
Alexandria VA
Definitely still to small to be placed outside. If you’re on a budget, I know plenty members here have success with grow tents. In terms of food, I know veggies and fruit are a big no no unless your species is tropical. I would double check the care sheet on here to see what foods are okay and which are not. Last thing and probably the one you don’t want to hear. It’s not recommended to keep torts in pair.

Thank you!!! I am working on everything that you have suggested!! And yes...unfortunately I was uninformed when I purchased two so now I will work on separate housing. I appreciate your response! :)
 

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