H.R. 5864 - Invasive Fish and Wildlife Prevention Act of 2012

[StudentoftheReptile]

Only if determined to be injurious and such, though, yes?

Once again....who determines this? Not anyone (or group of persons) who
a.) has the adequate knowledge of the particular taxon in question,
b.) can make a fair, unbiased assessment of the economic impact of making said taxon injurious,
c.) can make a fair, unbiased assessment of the ecological impact of making said taxon injurious,
d.) can make a fair, unbiased assessment of the potential threat/harm to human life/public safety
e.) is not influenced by any other outside agency/organization/person(s)

You (and by "you", I'm not directing the question personally, but rhetorically to anyone) find someone who can meet all of that criteria, and I probably wouldn't be so concerned. But its been proven before: they can and will spin the facts however they want to if they have reason enough to believe a certain taxon warrants being determined injurious.

They did it with the federal rule listing on March 23. They just did it in Ohio. They will do it again.

 

[tortadise]

Only if determined to be injurious and such, though, yes?

Once again....who determines this? Not anyone (or group of persons) who



damn. That's just what I was about to post. Who determines or classifies the species as "invasive" I don't see anything in the text displaying this. I'd think it's a biased accusation on te grounds from numerous small agency perhaps in Florida that are pushing it up the ladder.

Have you seen the swamp wars on PETA planet. Even the animal control agents working in the field portray the Nile monitor, and burms as I'd they are "attacking" people like a rabbid dog. This is not true by all means. Sorry getting off topic a bit.

I would not trust whatever "agency" put in place to decide what is and what is not invasive. Just plainly needs to be defined in te text for this to be more of a legitimate well written bill, whether or I agree or disagree with it. In which case I do disagree strongly with it.

 

[Baoh]

I would not *want* that person to be in that position, but I also would not deny an effective agent who puts his or her feelings aside in order to fulfill their duties.

I don't think I would want the job either. IF the person could really do the job correctly and without personal prejudices, it would atleast be a step in the right direction. I just fear they would not be finding such a person and I don't know if such a person would really want the job either. It still boils down to the openness bothering me from the get go before I ever get to the "real meat" of the proposal

Understandable. I just cannot say whether or not something may be abused by bad agents until implementation by bad agents takes place. Good agents would help with good implementation.

 

[Tom]

I would not *want* that person to be in that position, but I also would not deny an effective agent who puts his or her feelings aside in order to fulfill their duties.

I don't think I would want the job either. IF the person could really do the job correctly and without personal prejudices, it would atleast be a step in the right direction. I just fear they would not be finding such a person and I don't know if such a person would really want the job either. It still boils down to the openness bothering me from the get go before I ever get to the "real meat" of the proposal

Understandable. I just cannot say whether or not something may be abused by bad agents until implementation by bad agents takes place. Good agents would help with good implementation.

Here's a novel idea: How about we don't give the power to the agents at all. Then it does not matter if they are good OR bad.

 

[StudentoftheReptile]

Understandable. I just cannot say whether or not something may be abused by bad agents until implementation by bad agents takes place. Good agents would help with good implementation.

There in lies the rub. There seems to be more poor implementation from bad agents (or agencies) from past legislation in comparison to any "good implementation from good agents." Why should any reasonable person expect anything different from this one?

For example, if my wife tells me we're having chicken tenders for dinner, but then switches it to spaghetti instead, and she does this 6 days in a row.....what should I expect when she tells me we're having chicken on the seventh day?

---

Here's a novel idea: How about we don't give the power to the agents at all. Then it does not matter if they are good OR bad.

I really like that idea!

 

[dmmj]

I have very little faith in the government to act in my best interest, after seeing incompetence and abuse of power on many levels, I just think once you give the government a little power, they take more.

 

[Jacqui]

For example, if my wife tells me we're having chicken tenders for dinner, but then switches it to spaghetti instead, and she does this 6 days in a row.....what should I expect when she tells me we're having chicken on the seventh day?

Easy, on the seventh day YOUR going to be fixing supper, because by then you will have gotten the hint.

---

I have very little faith in the government to act in my best interest, after seeing incompetence and abuse of power on many levels, I just think once you give the government a little power, they take more.

Sadly this is true of humankind in general, not just the government. There are exceptions on all levels and in all fields, but it seems they are slowly being replaced by "the bad" kind. ... or is it we just hear about them more these days?

---

Here's a novel idea: How about we don't give the power to the agents at all. Then it does not matter if they are good OR bad.

I really like that idea!

If we were policing ourselves, then this would be okay, but we are not. We do need to try to stop some of these behaviors.

 

[StudentoftheReptile]

Easy, on the seventh day YOUR going to be fixing supper, because by then you will have gotten the hint.

Maybe so...but my point still stands that I won't be getting chicken!

I have very little faith in the government to act in my best interest, after seeing incompetence and abuse of power on many levels, I just think once you give the government a little power, they take more.

Sadly this is true of humankind in general, not just the government. There are exceptions on all levels and in all fields, but it seems they are slowly being replaced by "the bad" kind. ... or is it we just hear about them more these days?

Here's a novel idea: How about we don't give the power to the agents at all. Then it does not matter if they are good OR bad.

If we were policing ourselves, then this would be okay, but we are not. We do need to try to stop some of these behaviors.
[/quote]

Very true on all accounts. But while we wait for the tides to turn, it doesn't make sense for a broken system to attempt to regulate a flawed industry, because in the end, nothing really gets accomplished and matters are often just made worse.

 

[Jacqui]

Very true on all accounts. But while we wait for the tides to turn, it doesn't make sense for a broken system to attempt to regulate a flawed industry, because in the end, nothing really gets accomplished and matters are often just made worse.

I sorta disagree with this. I think it is better to be atleast TRYING to do something, rather then sitting back doing nothing and letting things get worse. It's like back to your chicken, if your really wanting chicken, you can sit back and do nothing which usually results in getting nothing (chicken in this case) OR fix it yourself and know your getting chicken, even if your wife makes it better then you do.

We have sat back and done little or nothing and look where it is getting us. I think it's time to do something, because this is no longer a case of it isn't broken, so why fix it. It is broken and getting more broken every year.

 

[dmmj]

But I like spaghetti.

 

[reticguy76]

Thats what its all about. We can sit here and debate and argue about what the government is doing, but they will become tyrannical and have total control by us just talking about them. We have to physically fight for the good. I put forth a lot of effort with the python ban proposal (as I keep and breed retics, luckily that worked out for us retic people, but they will try again and eventually succeed if we let them), while it was in the voting stages and even prior.

We have to ban together as American free people to let them know, this isnt right and we will fight them. I believe there are many more of us than there are peta, hsus, and other government agencies trying to destroy us and this great hobby and keeping

---

And another thing, I just had homemade from scratch spaghetti. Good stuff

 

[StudentoftheReptile]

I sorta disagree with this. I think it is better to be atleast TRYING to do something, rather then sitting back doing nothing and letting things get worse.

We have sat back and done little or nothing and look where it is getting us. I think it's time to do something, because this is no longer a case of it isn't broken, so why fix it. It is broken and getting more broken every year.

I'm sorry. I didn't mean to give the impression we should not do anything. Many are (on the side of the herp community), but it will take EVERYONE to get involved to make a significant difference and fix this broken thing. Sadly, it is the people least likely to jump on the wave of change that are represent the bulk of what is wrong with this hobby.

My point is that its a two-way street. Even if every single person who owns a herp straightened up, cleaned up their act, and everything in the reptile industry (as it were) was rectified by the end of the week, there's still the suits to deal with. They got issues of their own to resolve, and until that happens, its folly for one to try to regulate the other.

Again, how can we expect proper implementation and regulation through legislation like this bill, when these govt can't even identify their own native species? Not to mention the myriad of other issue surrounding these pieces of legislation.

---

We've hit on this before on other threads, but it bears repeating, I think.
------------

In addition to specifically fighting this type of legislation with letter campaigns and phone calls, there's a lot the average herper can be doing to make a difference:

1.) Buy quality, healthy animals from reputable vendors. Personally, I don't feel it's as cut and dry as "CBB vs WC" but know who you are buying from. Do they respect their animals and care for them properly? How do they handle their customers? How do they handle sales gone bad?

2.) (going hand-in-hand with the first) Don't automatically buy from the guy with the cheapest animals. There are exceptions, but usually these are the guys who are just wanting to make a quick return on their animals and don't practice good quarantine, etc.

3.) If you regularly sell animals, ask yourself the questions in #1. Make sure YOU'RE not doing anything wrong as a vendor because every animal you sell potentially goes into the hand of a new herper.

4.) Educate others...on the animals you sell, own, or just plain like the best! If you see something wrong, don't be afraid to call someone out on it. Of course, be polite and respectful and offer resources to help them, but if you stand by and do nothing, then nothing gets changed.

5.) Repeat when applicable.

6.) Encourage your fellow herpers to do all of the above.
---------

It may not happen overnight, but as the saying goes, "A journey of a 1000 miles begins with a single step." Next time someone asks you, "Dude, how are your hatchling sulcatas sooo smooth?" You can reply, "I only buy them from ____. They take care of their babies from day 1 and they have no pyramiding." That's just one example, but you see what I mean.

 

[Jacqui]

But I like spaghetti.

That and mac and cheese are just something I have never liked.

 

[StudentoftheReptile]

I don't mind it too much when its freshly made. I HATE it when its leftovers.

 

[dmmj]

But I like spaghetti.

That and mac and cheese are just something I have never liked.

Going OT here
OMG I can't believe what I just read, I am speechless (thank god for keyboards). My whole world has been turned upside down, nothing makes sense anymore.

 

[tortadise]

But I like spaghetti.

That and mac and cheese are just something I have never liked.

Going OT here
OMG I can't believe what I just read, I am speechless (thank god for keyboards). My whole world has been turned upside down, nothing makes sense anymore.

That's funny. I can do spaghetti if it's not chunky tomatoes. I'm not a big fan of tomatoes.