Growing food.. Fertilizer, soil, lights?! Oh my!

[Equivix]

Hi from Canada everyone!

So I've been creeping the forums on here for a while and finally decided to join! I'm currently in the process of setting up a new 5'x2'x1' indoor tortoise table for hatchling Hermanns, but the silicone is still setting so still in very early stages. And yes, I'm new to the tortoise hobby!

I'll be using a 60:40 top soil to play sand mix. One side of the enclosure will have a MVB during the day and CHE for nightime (both on thermostat), the rest of the enclosure will be lit during the day by fluorescents. Hides will be provided throughout.

I'm planning on planting the enclosure, but have a few troubleshooting questions for the experts out there
I'm getting lots of mixed opinions from keepers and gardeners.. I was told that if I plant directly into the topsoil/sand substrate, the earth will be too rich and burn the roots out, especially cacti... Thoughts?

These plants will be bought from the local nursery, I'll wash out the roots but I don't really want to wait a year to to grow them out until the potential fertilizer dilutes.. Is planting them directly ok (if above question is moot).

I also travel a bit for work so was hoping to grow some seedling trays for the little guys to munch on while I go away for a few days (yes, they'll be checked in on). I ordered a tortoise seed mix to grow online from sulcatafoods It's impossible to find organic potting soil around here, so I'm planning to use the simplest one I can find, with some vermiculite and manure. Is it ok to grow in this and then plop the trays as is into the enclosure? If not, how does everyone else do it?! The indoor gardener guy also recommended I use organic fertilizer (http://www.dutchnutrientformula.com/organic/organic.html).. Is it safe?

Lastly, in terms of lighting, what kind of indoor lighting to you guys use to keep your plants healthy and not blind your tortoises?! I think growlights are overkill and would probably be too harsh for eyes, but the T8 flurescent bulbs I've been able to find only put out 4500 Kelvin, I'd think I'd need closer to 6000, no?

Any comments or advice greatly appreciated!

 

[ZEROPILOT]

Welcome
Do not use sand as any part of your substrate. if you can, use something like Orchid bark and cover it with potting soil or compost. Not top soil because it also has too much sand.
Also wipe off any silicone that squirts out of the seams. It might look like a treat to a tortoise.

 

[Equivix]

And this is where things get confusing, as I was told the exact opposite, as do many tortoise keepers on other forums.. Play sand is very soft sand, and top soil has no sand at all generally.
Also, most potting soils have vermiculite, fertilizer, etc...

 

[ZEROPILOT]

I'm at a loss as to why you asked for advice...

 

[Equivix]

That's a little harsh, is there no room for discussion? Not to mention you didn't really answer my actual questions.. I'm happy to hear your reasoning and I'm here looking for advice, but I'm allowed to disagree with some if it, am I not?

 

[Grandpa Turtle 144]

That's a little harsh, is there no room for discussion? Not to mention you didn't really answer my actual questions.. I'm happy to hear your reasoning and I'm here looking for advice, but I'm allowed to disagree with some if it, am I not?

You have to ask what potting soils don't have vermiculight? But now let me try compost is good compost tea is good . And sand and sol stones are bad cause torts love to taste test everything but they don't pass them so they build up in the belly of the tort . And any floresent bulb will grow plants but the plants will not flower under a floresent tube . I hope I've answered your questions . And if not text your next question . Torts rule !

 

[Equivix]

You have to ask what potting soils don't have vermiculight? But now let me try compost is good compost tea is good . And sand and sol stones are bad cause torts love to taste test everything but they don't pass them so they build up in the belly of the tort . And any floresent bulb will grow plants but the plants will not flower under a floresent tube . I hope I've answered your questions . And if not text your next question . Torts rule !

Thank you! The lighting would be for non flowering plants so I'm ok with that

As for the sand, I was using recommendations from the tortoise trust and tortoise protection group(http://www.tortoisetrust.org/Downloads/Taking_care_of_pet_tortoises_web.pdf http://www.tortoise-protection-group.org.uk/site/164.asp). They mention impaction with other substrates but not with a sand/topsoil mix. Hence my confusion.. My ratio was going to be lower on the sand because I do have concerns about that...

 

[teresaf]

This forum is a "don't use sand or small gravel" forum because it is KNOWN to be a cause of impaction. It is for dogs too so I agree. There are some organic topsoils out there that are safe just check the ingredients for anything that isn't organic like plastic or vermiculite(little while balls). Better to be safe than sorry. Zeropilot is having a bad day evidently. He's usually more patient. He's very knowledgable and informative too.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

Nothing personal. It did sound harsh.
Sorry
The same questions get asked each day and I'm just cranky.
I should have fielded the question for some one else today or at the very least given more information to you.
By potting soil I mean the cheap bags that are 100% potting soil. It is bits of decomposed matter and very little sand. Most top soil is primarily sand.
There are lots of issues with tortoises ingesting it. (sand)
My opinion is not the only opinion.
But I feel that the general idea is that one should avoid sand as a substrate.
Hopefully I didn't make a lasting bad impression.

 

[Equivix]

No problem, I appreciate the apology, and yes I get the newbie question frustration. Problem is as a (Canadian)newbie, there are very few knowledgeable tortoise people close at hand, and I end up browsing multiple forums and sources of information from other parts of the world online, a lot of which contradict each other. It's hard to keep track of which forums say what, not to mention the point of this thread wasn't necessarily about substrate directly, although I appreciate the advice...
In all my searchings, I have yet to really find a straight answer on the lighting/plants/tortoise issue.. Might have to be a trial and error kind of deal.
Doing my best to try and provide for these little guys during the 8 months of the year nothing survives outside

 

[teresaf]

I think geography has a little to do with some of the contradicting info. Canada is a colder local so follow advice in forum of similar geography. We have alot of people from all over but predominately US i think. We have a mixed bag of weather so I just go by the popular advice of this forum which usually includes temps and humidities for different aged torts and I try to keep those steady for them. If I followed someone in indonesia's advice I'd probably have dead torts. They don't necessarily need to worry about humidity and temps, right? I think thats a humid and hot area anyway...could be wrong. But you get my drift...

 

[leigti]

It gets very confusing when you read multiple sites, I know because that's what I did at first. So I will save you the time and frustration and recommend that you stay right here on this forum. You will find all the answers you need. Ask questions and also do a search here for old posts that may also answer questions.
For my indoor enclosures I put the plants in pots because my Russian tortoise will destroy them. Heck, she destroys them anyway but at least she has to work at it harder if they are in pots. And my plants do good under the fluorescent tube lights I have. I use high output bulbs and fixtures. I grow seed mixes in containers on my windowsill. They grow well there.

 

[Equivix]

For sure, I've been told the nighttime heater is probably not necessary unless temps in the house drop more than 5C. Problem is in the winter here that might very well be the case depending on how well insulated your house is. I'll just have to keep a close eye on temperature fluctuations, but if everything's on a thermostat, should be safe

 

[teresaf]

Other countries see their torts living wild and thriving even multipliing like rabbits on their sandy soil but how many are dying from impaction? Why would they even look into it? Here, though, it's a struggle to keep our baby torts healthy due to humidity and temp concerns and when we have one die for some reason or other we have them necropsied. Chances are a sandy soil would be fine for you. you may have success for a while but then one day a new tort baby you get will die and you'll kick yourself if it's because of impacted sand...

 

[Equivix]

It gets very confusing when you read multiple sites, I know because that's what I did at first. So I will save you the time and frustration and recommend that you stay right here on this forum. You will find all the answers you need. Ask questions and also do a search here for old posts that may also answer questions.
For my indoor enclosures I put the plants in pots because my Russian tortoise will destroy them. Heck, she destroys them anyway but at least she has to work at it harder if they are in pots. And my plants do good under the fluorescent tube lights I have. I use high output bulbs and fixtures. I grow seed mixes in containers on my windowsill. They grow well there.

Thanks Leigti! I've heard of the pot idea and will definitely try it for those plants the little guys won't leave alone. I presume you don't bury the pots but rather just put the pots on top of the substrate to give plants some elevation?

Cheers!

 

[teresaf]

I see that you are setting up for hatchlings...There are good sections here for caring for hatchling hermanns. I would peruse those if you haven't already. Babies of most species are more fragile and require more humidity and heat than adults. If yours is one then I would recommend enclosing your enclosure to trap heat and humidity so that you don't end up heating your whole house to 27c...have fun

 

[teresaf]

I half bury my pots to give them stability and keep the soil in the pots hydrated.

 

[leigti]

I half Barry the pots also. I know some people plant the plants directly into the substrate, I think they are usually using coconut coir. How many babies do you have? I'm sure you've read that they require constant heat and humidity. And that works really well for plants also so I would recommend covering at least part of your enclosure to help keep the heat and humidity in. I do not have a green thumb, Heck I even killed cactuses, but the plants grow well in the enclosure once I covered it. This is just my opinion, but you may want to look into the high output lights if your tortoise is going to be indoors most of the year. You can start a new thread asking about it and get other peoples opinions also. Of course if the lights are only 12 inches above your tortoiseshell then it may be a mute point.

 

[Equivix]

Thanks everyone! Yes, I will have hatchlings (1-2 months).
What do you suggest covering the enclosure with? I've read tinfoil and cellophane. but these both make me feel uneasy in terms of airfflow...
I need something I can put over my light fixtures that are hanging from a PVC pipe setup directly above the enclosure.

 

[jaizei]

Sand is a natural part of soil; I don't think it poses a significant risk as part of a mix assuming other general husbandry is good.