Greek - Soft Shell, Sluggish, Not Eating

[Reg1035]

Hi Everyone,

I'm new to the forum and new to tortoises as well. I have a baby Greek Tortoise that's probably 12-14 weeks old. I keep it in a plastic bin that's about 16x24 with a UVB/ Heat lamp in one corner and a coconut husk (not sure if that's exactly what it's called) substrate with a small hide house and a water dish. In addition the container is near a window so he gets some natural light as well but there's always a shady place for him if need be. Temperature ranges from about 90 under the light to 75 - 79 in the shade. There is also a water dish and a cuttle bone.

I typically feed him some spring mix - he prefers red(ish) lettuce and he has been active and eating a lot. We bath him often for about 20 minutes at a time, though my son left him in a bath for almost an hour and when we took him out he didn't move at all until almost the next morning. I think we also let his whole environment get too dry - the substrate was dry most of the time. Over the last week and half, he has become extremely sluggish, won't eat and the sides of his shell are becoming very soft - kind of flexible. You can feel it bending in if you pick him up. I've added more moisture to the environment and dusted his food with some calcium - but he's still not eating it. I also added a plastic hide box so that the humidity, at least in there, would stay a little higher.

The only other thing that's changed recently is the night time temperatures have gone down and are probably in the low to mid 70s inside (outside in the 60s).

Looking for any help we can get.

Best,
Reg

 

[JoesMum]

Hello

Pictures will help us better than words

Incorrect temperatures are usually the problem with lack of activity

Babies take a while to harden up after hatching. If you have the UVB correct then the shell may be a little pliable but not squishy.

I recommend you read the TFO care guides and compare them with your setup

They're written by species experts working hard to correct the outdated information widely available on the internet and from pet stores and, sadly, from some breeders and vets too.

Beginner Mistakes
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/

Baby Testudo care - written for Russians, but applies to Greeks too

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread...or-other-herbivorous-tortoise-species.107734/

 

[Reg1035]

Thanks! I've been suspecting the temperatures since this seems to have occurred when it got colder. What's the best way to keep temps a little warmer at night?

 

[JoesMum]

Firstly you need accurate digital thermometers.

A temperature gun type is best for spot temperatures. You must have 30-35C directly under the basking lamp.

And you need to know how low it goes at night.

Your baby needs to be in a closed chamber - some sort of roof on top to hold the heat and humidity in. See the second thread I linked for details.

Without this, you will never get the temperatures right.

Overnight, a Ceramic Heat Emitter (which is used with a thermostat) is best for maintaining temperatures.

The CHE can be on 24/7 as the thermostat will ensure that it only cuts in when it's needed

 

[Bee62]

Hi Everyone,

I'm new to the forum and new to tortoises as well. I have a baby Greek Tortoise that's probably 12-14 weeks old. I keep it in a plastic bin that's about 16x24 with a UVB/ Heat lamp in one corner and a coconut husk (not sure if that's exactly what it's called) substrate with a small hide house and a water dish. In addition the container is near a window so he gets some natural light as well but there's always a shady place for him if need be. Temperature ranges from about 90 under the light to 75 - 79 in the shade. There is also a water dish and a cuttle bone.

I typically feed him some spring mix - he prefers red(ish) lettuce and he has been active and eating a lot. We bath him often for about 20 minutes at a time, though my son left him in a bath for almost an hour and when we took him out he didn't move at all until almost the next morning. I think we also let his whole environment get too dry - the substrate was dry most of the time. Over the last week and half, he has become extremely sluggish, won't eat and the sides of his shell are becoming very soft - kind of flexible. You can feel it bending in if you pick him up. I've added more moisture to the environment and dusted his food with some calcium - but he's still not eating it. I also added a plastic hide box so that the humidity, at least in there, would stay a little higher.

The only other thing that's changed recently is the night time temperatures have gone down and are probably in the low to mid 70s inside (outside in the 60s).

Looking for any help we can get.

Best,
Reg

Hello, the plastic bin that you use for your tort baby is too small and it should not be placed near a window because of draft when the window is open.
Why do you soak for 1 hour ? That is much too long. Does the water stays warm during the soak ?
When you kept the enclosure of your tort baby too dry for weeks your baby tort is dehydrated and the damage of the kidneys can be already done. A soft shell and no hunger could be signs for kidney problems.

 

[Reg1035]

The soak for one hour was an accident. My son put him in the water and forgot. Damage to the kidneys - wow, is there anything we can do to help with that? I was completely unaware of the humidity levels necessary.

 

[Bee62]

The soak for one hour was an accident. My son put him in the water and forgot. Damage to the kidneys - wow, is there anything we can do to help with that? I was completely unaware of the humidity levels necessary.

Sorry, I don`t want to make you worry but please read this:
Hachling Failure Syndrome
Noelia Perez·Mittwoch, 26. Juli 2017

Symptoms of Hatchling Failure Syndrome

• Loss of appetite
• Lethargy
• Swollen eyes/swollen shut
• Constant sitting in water bowl
• Soft shell
• Partial paralysis
• Edema

The tortoise's kidneys are no longer working properly usually due to chronic dehydration. Small tortoises can become dehydrated overnight if kept in dry conditions without access to a burrow that allows them to maintain proper hydration status. Over time, if they do not get sufficient water back into their systems, they experience chronic dehydration, which can cause kidney failure.
What can I do?
The early stages of kidney failure can be treated successfully. Treatment requires taking the tortoise to a reptile vet so it can receive fluids to reverse the dehydration. The vet may also draw blood, the results will help the vet determine how acute the kidney failure is. Be aware that by the time your tortoise is showing the symptoms listed above, it may already be too late.

One of the main jobs of the kidneys is to filter the blood and remove the toxins and acidic byproducts of normal cellular processes. As the kidneys fail, they are less effective at filtering the bloodstream, so those toxins and acidic compounds begin to build up. To neutralize the rising acid levels in the blood, the tortoise's body begins to remove calcium from its bones and shell -- leading to the softening of the shell, limp limbs, and the lethargy. The tortoise's internal organs can also suffer damage from the rising acidity and toxins. When tortoises reach this stage, no amount of fluids will make the kidneys restart or undo the damage to the tortoise's bones and organs.
Why Does This Happen?
Misinformed pet stores or vets may tell new owners that these species are desert animals, they cannot tolerate any humidity and should be kept at very high temperatures. THIS IS WRONG and it shows a real lack of understanding about how tortoises and many other desert animals actually deal with their environment! The natural behavior of desert species in the wild is to come out of their burrow in the early morning (when temperatures are cooler) to bask and eat. When the temperatures start to rise, they disappear back down into their burrows. They simply do not stay out in the heat of the day for any length of time if they can avoid it by finding shade or a burrow.The relative humidity inside tortoise burrows in the wild has been measured at 40 to 60 percent, which is typically much higher than the above-ground humidity. Air temperatures inside a burrow are also much cooler, lower than above-ground temperatures. This cooler, (cooler than the desert heat, but not cold) more humid micro-environment prevents small tortoises from getting overheated and dehydrated, since they can move either higher or lower in the burrow as needed to remain comfortable.
How do I prevent Hatchling Failure Syndrome?
The only real way to treat Hatchling Failure Syndrome is to keep your tortoise from becoming dehydrated in the first place. The best way to accomplish this is to establish a lower-temperature, higher-humidity micro-habitat in your tortoise enclosure, one that mimics the conditions found inside a tortoise burrow.
To prevent dehydration and establish this kind of micro-habitat in your enclosure, we suggest these steps:

• Continue to soak your hatchling or small tortoise regularly and provide a shallow water bowl for it to drink from.
• Provide a substrate that holds moisture, such as a 50/50 mixture cococoir and topsoil, and make sure that the substrate is deep enough to allow your tortoise to dig a nightly burrow or scrape (a shallow burrow excavated on top of the soil). New Zealand Sphagnum moss is also recommended, this will ensure that your humidity levels stay where they need to be. A tortoise will usually choose a dark corner away from any light or heat lamps to sleep in, so pile the substrate deeper in that area.
• Provide an appropriately-sized hide box with a cellulose sponge attached to the inside, and keep the sponge damp. This hide box can be in the sleeping corner or a different one. Observe your tortoise and see what it prefers.

Humid Hide

• Monitor the humidity in your enclosure. Purchase a hygrometer and find a way to place it in the enclosure near where your tortoise sleeps. Try to maintain a humidity level as directed on our reference guide, in whatever area your tortoise sleeps in.
• Buy a spray bottle, a pump sprayer, or a watering can and use it to moisten the substrate regularly to maintain a higher humidity level in the tortoise's sleeping area.
• Provide a closed chamber environment, this will ensure the adequate levels are provided.

Why do you have to do all this?
The problem is that we cannot duplicate a natural environment indoors for any tortoise. While the recorded humidity for areas where some desert species live in the wild may be very low, the humidity that is found down in a burrow can be considerably higher. Hatchlings -- particularly indoors in the summer in an air-conditioned building -- do not retain body moisture as well as adults. In air-conditioned houses, the ambient humidity can drop to 10% or lower.
In the wild, if a hatchling is to survive (and very few do), it must have access to an area that will allow it to retain its moisture. In captivity (indoors) there is no way it can look for this area -- we must supply it.

• Cooler does not mean cold, but cooler than the temps of their natural habitat.. The group reference sheet provides the proper temperatures and humidity levels.

 

[Reg1035]

Darn. Thanks for that. Looks like it may be too late.

 

[Bee62]

Darn. Thanks for that. Looks like it may be too late.

Sorry again for making you sad, but it is not too late. Your baby is still alive. You can try to give him a closed chamber with warmth and high humidity and daily long soaks.
Did he eat something ? What is he doing ? Lethargic or moving around ?

 

[Reg1035]

I have closed it up and there's a lot of humidity. He is very lethargic and his shell feels even softer - also the bottom plate is soft. He mostly doesn't move. He nibbled at some food yesterday, but I'm not sure he ate anything. I'm doing everything I can.

 

[Bee62]

I have closed it up and there's a lot of humidity. He is very lethargic and his shell feels even softer - also the bottom plate is soft. He mostly doesn't move. He nibbled at some food yesterday, but I'm not sure he ate anything. I'm doing everything I can.

I know that you do.
Have you soaked him in baby carrot food ? You can also add some vitamins to the soaking water. Mayby he drinks something and torts can adsorb a little bit of vitamins trough their skin.

 

[Reg1035]

Baby carrot food? No - I had no idea that could help. I've added a little liquid calcium to the soaking water, I was told that might help.

 

[Bee62]

Baby carrot food? No - I had no idea that could help. I've added a little liquid calcium to the soaking water, I was told that might help.

When a tort is sick it is a little "trick" to try the baby carrot food add to the soaking water. Adding liquid calcium and vitamins is also good.

 

[Riley ann]

Sound like it’s failing I think it’s the kidneys