Graeca ibera not drinking!

[Canadian Mojo]

If you tent the whole enclosure to get the humidity up, that doesn't give the tortoise many options. They're not a high humidity species. Instead, provide a variety of different hides, maybe, to allow the tortoise to self-regulate its temperature and humidity?

It was based on the comment that 30% was too low. The most effective way to get the humidity up particularly this time of year is to enclose the habitat. From there it is easy to establish the needed level whether it is 50% or 85% and keep it there. Heat lamps and shady hides will still affect humidity the same and provide micro climates.

 

[Randy Micheals]

Thanks mojo, once enclosed what do you use to increase humidity, just water into soil? Do people use humidifiers at all?

 

[Sa Ga]

Normally we scoff and laugh at the bottled water people, but sadly in some locations it is the safest water choice!

Yeah, I feel SO guilty buying bottled H2O but I tube hydrate Morla with it because our water is so hard and she has her serious kidney issues.

 

[Sa Ga]

Hi all,

Having a bit of trouble with hydrating Henri, my otherwise healthy and happy male greek, approx 15 years old. My major issues is controlling his hydration. He refuses to drink from the terra cotta dish in his table, and will not voluntarily soak either. I try to keep his humidity at proper levels but it is very dry this time of year and sometimes a struggle. Dont want yo use an auto mister for fear of shell rot. I had assumed he was ok hydration wise, as he has never showed signs of lethargy, no sunk in eyes, etc.

However, the other day he went to an area of his table (under the ramp to the second level) that he has never gone to, to dig himself in and sleep. He almost always sleeps in one of two other places, and digs himself in a night. So this was odd behavior. In addition, he stayed there all day without coming out! I placed some food beside him and, hoping for the best, went to work the next day. I came home to find the food untouched and was, at this point, very worried. Normally he is an eating machine and will literally trample anything in his path to get to food. He had moved however, and was sunning under his lamp as per usual. It was roughly 6pm which is after his active time, but regardless I talked to him and moved his food dish around which typically gets his attention very quick. Sure enough he ran over like normal and devoured some water-soaked greens like his normal self. After this tho, he urinated and released a very large amount of white uric (about the diameter of an oreo cookie), leaving me wondering if that's why he wasnt acting himself. To have stored up that much, he must have been dehydrated, despite having water readily available, as well as having his zoomed grassland f pellets always soaked into a mush. He loves the mush and this is most of his diet this time of year as I live in Canada and most supermarket Greens are no good for him, or simply not nutritious enough. We have basic grocery stores here and collard greens, escarole are hard to find! I bought grow lamps, clover seed, and dandelion seed and am growing them indoors, but this is slow and doesn't provide quite enough for daily. Also, the dandelion isnt dandelion, and I dony know what it is! Will try to post a pic for identification later. Obviously I am not feeding the unidentified greens.

I believe dehydration is an issue. I spritz the enclosure to decrease dust and add moisture, as well as pour water into the soil of his "forest" micro climate. Soil is coco coir with mushroom soil (organic and fully neutral/depleted).

On to soaking. He absolutely hates these, and will hiss and hide, or alternatively splash around trying to escape. I tolerate this despite our mutual discomfort, because I fear forhis overall health. However the stress incurred is also obviously not ideal.

So, I am hoping to get some advice and info as to how I can increase regular hydration. In the summer time this is a non issue, as the weeds he eats are very lush, and are spritzed with additional water. One approach is to offer more water rich foods such as cucumber, grapes, or watermelon. However I have read that these should be fed very sparingly if at all (I will give as a treat perhaps once a month), and therefore cannot be a hydration staple. I have also noticed that he is pooping less frequently as well. His metabolism is likely slower this time of year but I dont feel confident attempting to brumate quite yet. Was his lethargy and lack of appetite for 2 days a result of dehydration? The uric acid build up? The uric was not crusty or flaky at all, and there seemed to be plenty of water in the pee as well. Fed him some cucumber the next day and he pee'd again, this time with no urates. He has resumed his normal routine but I am left rather concerned by our apparent inability to keep him regularly hydrated, if in fact his was the issue. Why would he store that much urates when water is readily available? Why wont he drink? And what can I do to stabilize this process in the least stressful and hands off way possible? What foods can be offered often for hydration? How often may he have cucumber, watermelon, grapes, or lettuce? Will these upset his stomach, gut flora, or vitamin levels? How much longer before his soaks (every week, sometimes bi weekly) become normalized part of his routine?

Any advice or tips are appreciated! Thank you,

Randy & Henri

@Randy Micheals ,
Yes, his drop in appetite and energy, high urate output, low energy, and lack of activity can be totally die to dehydration. Luckily it can be easy enough to monitor and remedy. Unluckily, letting it persist long enough over time can have serious consequences.

My Russie tort, Morla, won't drink enough on her own, and when I got her this past Sept, she was so dehydrated (though I didn't realize it bc she was fed wet greens, given daily long soaks, and had free access in her cage to both a soaking dish and water drinking dish as well), she ended up needing to be hospitalized overnight for aggressive hydration therapy (about a month after getting her).

Chronic dehydration can cause acute kidney injury (which is what the vet suspects happened over the incorrect care she had at her former home), eventually leading to CKD (chronic kidney disease). She was diagnosed with this at her time of hospitalization and now I "tube feed" her water 3x daily (with a blunt needled, tube feeding syringe from the vet) in addition to daily soaks.

NOTE: She used to HATE her soaks, thrashing no less like a victim in Jaws the whole time!--but once I found both a soaking dish she liked (I seriously bought about 15-20 diffr plates, trays, low-sided bowls, etc. She actually loves a Lego set box lid [see pic].), AND finding a water temp she likes (lukewarm just on the side of cooler than warm--like when u go in a pool.... once you adjust, it isn't cold at all anymore, but it still feels refreshing because there is the tiniest hint of cool rather than warm vs those blistering hot days where u get into the pool and it just feels warm, period.)

Besides maintaining good immediate health, I am hoping to slow the progression of the CKD, because unfortunately, there is no cure and eventually her kidneys will fail. (Boy did I sob when I found that out!)

I can tell an IMMEDIATE diffr in her behavior/energy and appetite after a tubing, esp. if I get home late and her afternoon tubing is a bit delayed. But minutes afterward, she is active, hungry, and up and about. And since I started, she poops well, and they're soft and moist, not dry and fibrous.

I would stick to daily soaks, maybe a THIN slice of cuke every other day (so thin it's more floppy than rigid...maybe 1/8"?), and try adding carrot baby food to the water to encourage his own drinking.

But watch those poops carefully (the amount and consistency). You want it well-formed, but moist and squishy when smooshed. (To check Morla's, I will collect it fresh from the source on toilet paper and just squish it in the paper.) Luckily, she likes to poop in her soaks and wags her tail before she lets it go, so I pull her out, let it drop onto the paper, and then use more paper to squish it. If it feels dry and pasty or looks dry/fiber-y/flakey, she needs more hydration.) Also, the eyes should be bright, beady, and alert. Morla's get sunken (more flush w/ her head, rather than sticking out), and often she seems spaced out, not alert. It's very subtle, but after watching for a while, the differences are like night and day.

Urates of course can be indicators and the one most commonly known to people. (The less and more liquid-y, the better.) But Morla's urates were never ever alarming (always light and at worst, a little more pasty--never grainy) so I thought all was peachy. It wasn't until she peed dark brown one night (alwys bf clean and clear) I realized something was wrong and brought her to the vet the very next morning (which is when she was hospitalized and i got the diagnosis). Had I known what to watch for, (what "sunken eyes" really meant/ poo consistency), I would have known she needed help the day I got her!

If he continues to just not drink enough (poos are dry, constipation, sunken eyes, low energy, lethargy), perhaps see your *experienced* tort vet to learn how to supplement his hydration if needed.

 

[Randy Micheals]

He was asleep tonight when I got home, in his regular spot. The food I left out was eaten, and high graded for anything fresh. He woke up when I talked to him. He came over to see me and wandered about. When I looked again he was back asleep again in his normal spot. This is his regular sleep time so that's normal.

Seems to be ok. With this whole ordeal at first I thought he was dehydrated but wasnt overly concerned, then I thought sick after the 4 day sleep and was pretty freaked out. Now I'm not sure... I just know he is apparently back to his same routine, which is typically predictable. The long sleep was unsettling, but i kind of overreacted a bit I think, because it was new, normally he is so routine, and i guess im terrified of him getting sick.

 

[Randy Micheals]

Wow great post sa ga thanks!

I was typing mine while you posted and didnt see it!

 

[Sa Ga]

Wow great post sa ga thanks!

I was typing mine while you posted and didnt see it!

Yeah, now that you got the melodrama version.... always remember that just like us, they sometimes just have off days!

Just keep an over all eye on things (the reason I took the time to type all that is bc it is important AND always applies, no matter the underlying reason he may dehydrated or off that day), so you can be on top if things and it doesn't have to be an emergency bf you realize something is really, really wrong!

I'm so happy he's happy and back to norm!!!! ❤

 

[Randy Micheals]

Everything you shared there seems to make sense in relation to this situation. I'm sorry to hear that Morla wasnt cared for and bless your heart for helping her along after you found out! Sad to hear that it happened just after you got her too, nothing you really could have done ?

I wish Henri would drink from his dish but he just never will. Sometimes I think he gets some while soaking, almost by accident. I'm going to do everything I can to hydrate him, and I will have to take him on a 4 hour road trip to see the herp vet, but as long as he is up for it(?) Then I am too.

Luckily his poops last night were soft, even seemed a bit overly, but he did have cucumber so...and pooped a lot, since he was down for so long.

have been wondering about dehydration for a while and this is great info, really hoping his kidneys are ok. The lady that had him before didnt know, and I'm still learning so much. Thank you for sharing!

 

[Sa Ga]

Everything you shared there seems to make sense in relation to this situation. I'm sorry to hear that Morla wasnt cared for and bless your heart for helping her along after you found out! Sad to hear that it happened just after you got her too, nothing you really could have done ?

I wish Henri would drink from his dish but he just never will. Sometimes I think he gets some while soaking, almost by accident. I'm going to do everything I can to hydrate him, and I will have to take him on a 4 hour road trip to see the herp vet, but as long as he is up for it(?) Then I am too.

Luckily his poops last night were soft, even seemed a bit overly, but he did have cucumber so...and pooped a lot, since he was down for so long.

have been wondering about dehydration for a while and this is great info, really hoping his kidneys are ok. The lady that had him before didnt know, and I'm still learning so much. Thank you for sharing!

Yeah, I've had her for an intense 5.5 months now...and I am STILL learning very important things!!! This forum has been a godsend, as well as the local Herp Society, and my herp vet, Dr. Kizer! ❤

Just keep watching for those subtle signs of dehydration, and at least in catching it early, you'll be set! Keep monkeying around with making soak time more relaxing and pleasant for him (maybe try flavoring his water with that carrot baby food from time to time, esp in the beginning, experiment with diffr soaking dishes/trays/containers and water temps, too.

You'll find improvements along the way if you choose to keep trying! (And let us know when u do! It's always fun to hear what everyone's critter likes cuz they really are little individuals!)

P.S. At a "well-tort" checkup sometime, or sooner if there is cause for concern, have a blood panel done to test for kidney function (which should be done anyway bf you hibernate them each time bc hibernation is tough on kidneys with the extended period of dehydration). There is the CBC and metabolic panel (includes testing for phosphates, calcium, and uric acid levels--high readings can indicate CKD/kidney issues, if not some other conditions; x-rays can then help elim those--like for Morla, found no egg production (normal) and instead there were small calcium deposits under her rt shoulder scute, which is a body's way of dumping some of the excess calcium blood levels (indicating abnormal kidney funct.).)

 

[Canadian Mojo]

Thanks mojo, once enclosed what do you use to increase humidity, just water into soil? Do people use humidifiers at all?

I use a Zoo Med reptile fogger and an Inkbird controller since the fogger has a very crude adjustment, but I also moisten the substrate. We have a Redfoot and they like it warm and wet, so every little bit helps. I'm using straight cypress bark (he doesn't dig at all) which won't hold as much moisture as a good layer of soil so it's hard for me to make it too wet for him.

 

[Randy Micheals]

Hi Sa Ga

Agree the forum has been a godsend. It sounds like you really did a great job educating yourself on her care all around though wow! Really great detailed info on the kidneys and function, thank you. I will keep all this for when I talk to the vet on Monday.

Today I got several pouches of carrot flavored baby food as suggested and am looking forward to trying it out in the soak. He is really loving the clover I grew, and I used it in his last couple soaks to try to make him drink. The clover leaves float on the surface and I think he drinks a bit as he goes for them. I might have witnessed him drinking today actually, tho he may have just been tasting the water, and afterwards he made a bit of a squeak. But he hates being in the soak, and will eventually go crazy trying to get out, usually after about the 8 min mark at best. Hopefully the baby food will encourage actual swallows of water and finally make it enjoyable for him I found some clover sprouts in a small grocery store today so those should be a good treat too. I will try out a couple of different containers for his soak as you say and let you know. He can kind of see out of this one so maybe thats not good.

Hope your Morla is happy and healthy for a long time yet. It sounds like she has every opportunity going forward thanks to proper care. Thanks again for all the detailed information here.

 

[Randy Micheals]

Hi CanadianMojo,

Thanks for the info. A Redfoot looks like would be fun to have! Love the tropical look of their habitats. I have this waterfall decoration thing that would be great with that kind of set up. What humidity level does your redfoot need?

I've been dumping a lot more water into my soil in an effort to keep one side of the enclosure slightly damp soil in case Henri wants to dig there instead, and went and bought a humidifier for the apt itself, just to bring it up a little. Hoping this can help to manage his hydration a little easier as a result.

 

[Canadian Mojo]

Hi CanadianMojo,

Thanks for the info. A Redfoot looks like would be fun to have! Love the tropical look of their habitats. I have this waterfall decoration thing that would be great with that kind of set up. What humidity level does your redfoot need?

I've been dumping a lot more water into my soil in an effort to keep one side of the enclosure slightly damp soil in case Henri wants to dig there instead, and went and bought a humidifier for the apt itself, just to bring it up a little. Hoping this can help to manage his hydration a little easier as a result.

They're a tropical forest tortoise. Ideally, they want 80%+ humidity and about 80F and aren't really interested in sunshine or basking. Enclosed is pretty much the only way you can do that in this part of the world during the winter.

 

[Sa Ga]

I use a Zoo Med reptile fogger and an Inkbird controller since the fogger has a very crude adjustment, but I also moisten the substrate. We have a Redfoot and they like it warm and wet, so every little bit helps. I'm using straight cypress bark (he doesn't dig at all) which won't hold as much moisture as a good layer of soil so it's hard for me to make it too wet for him.

Have you ever considered a layer of coconut coir (like Eco Earth) for under the cypress bark? It's really good at keeping moist and is not an impaction risk.

 

[Canadian Mojo]

Have you ever considered a layer of coconut coir (like Eco Earth) for under the cypress bark? It's really good at keeping moist and is not an impaction risk.

I'll have to give that a shot.

 

[Sa Ga]

I'll have to give that a shot.

I put enough water in it to get it moist (dump some in and mix it around by hand until damp to the touch). It lasts pretty much the whole day deeper down, though of course the surface dries off quickly. With your cypress moistened on top, it should stay moist just fine.

Let us know how it works out for you!