Gpb Gbb Hybridization

[Mgridgaway]

So, I'm familiar with the whole 1 or no spots = Gpb and 2 spots = Gpp for determining which type of Leopard you have.

But what about Olive? I've noticed that some or her spots look like they could've been two, or were two and kind of off to the side of her scute. Most of her side spots are just one, but they look like the connect to the side of her scute.

Does this point to some hybridization/interbreeding in her ancestry? Or is it just a fluke that has no bearing on her Gpb-ness?

 

[lisa127]

I don't know, but you guys are killing me with all these leopard threads. I want one so bad....lol.

 

[Yvonne G]

Just like with Russian tortoises, leopards are imported without any concern as to where they came from. So people bought them and have been mixing them up and breeding the mixture ever since they were first imported. I would venture to say that the majority of leopard tortoises sold in the pet trade today are a mixture of the SA leopard and what we call the babcocki leopard.

 

[Tom]

Just like with Russian tortoises, leopards are imported without any concern as to where they came from. So people bought them and have been mixing them up and breeding the mixture ever since they were first imported. I would venture to say that the majority of leopard tortoises sold in the pet trade today are a mixture of the SA leopard and what we call the babcocki leopard.

I agree.

Until extensive DNA research is done and all the localities are cataloged, I don't think too many of us will really know for sure. Seems doubtful that that will ever happen.

 

[diamondbp]

Does it shows signs of both types...Yes. Could you ever determine if it indeed is a mix in both....sadly no. But regardless you have a picture perfect young leopard that is gorgeous. I wouldn't be surprised it it does get larger than a full babcocki .

Does it have black speckles on the skin??

 

[Mgridgaway]

Thanks for the replies. This was moreso just a curiosity and I was pretty much expecting these answers. I've seen Gpb that have very clear "1-spot-scutes", but I haven't seen a ton like Olive. All in all, good to know!

 

[Neal]

I agree with the above.

For simplicity sake, I usually consider US leopards as South African or not South African since the only reliable genetic info. we have with leopards is a South African variant. I usually don't bother saying it's a hybrid or mix or whatever. If we knew the physical characteristics of leopards from different geographical areas, we could better guess if it was in fact a mix.

 

[Tom]

I like what both Diamond and Neal had to say. Agreed all around.


If we were all standing around talking in person, I would have been nodding yes as they spoke and saying ,"yep" in agreement as they finished.

 

[diamondbp]

It looks similar to the "no dot" p.pardalis which I just got from Andrew at ATC. The only reason I decided to get one that wasn't the common "double dot" pattern was because I trust Andrew and his source that it just happens to be a variant of the usual coloration for South African leopards .
After receiving it yesterday and looking it over closely it resembles my other normal patterned p.pardalis in every respect other than pattern.
I could definitely understand if a breeder of P.pardalis had a few babies like mine and just threw up a white flag and sold the "no dot" or "single dotted" p.pardalis as regular leopards instead of fighting the battle of trying to prove they were indeed the same as the "double dotted" ones and expecting a higher price than babcocki. I trust Andrews expertise and decided to get one, but I doubt all would be willing to do so.

 

[Tom]

That carapace color and the plastron pattern all suggest pp to me. So does the shape and the skin freckles.

 

[BeeBee*BeeLeaves]

Beautiful little leopard. Totally lotta Gpp-ness. They are all so awesome. They should be called leopard kaleidoscope tortoises. : )

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Have you all ever had an intelligible conversation with a physicists who studies quantum mechanics? How about folks that study phylogenetics, of tortoises? How about the field herp guy #1 from South Africa?

You all sound like shade tree mechanics calling engine parts "thingamajigs" "doohickeys", 'shiny round parts' and those things that "make that sound".

There are no hybrids between populations of leopards. There are no subspecies. There are populations and clines, and traits that do best under certain selective pressures both in the wild and as we keep them in captivity.

In addition to the following content, you can see leopards from all over all of South Africa in an online Atlas project, with very precise locality data. The level of genetics proposed as needing to be sorted out has been sorted out. What you are talking about is one allele over another (blue eyes vs brown eyes). There would have to be a few major 'method' jumps in 'typing' genes for that level of scrutiny to come into a reasonable applicable thing a lab could do. That tech will be spillover from human health as has most jumps in methods.

From another equally distorted thread ... http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-82443-page-2.html

Will Wrote:
In the "show us your leopards" thread, about page 22, I posted wild types from the north and south portions of the southern Karoo, RSA. They show some of the traits ascribed to several populations.

Will further wrote:

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/thread-72026-page-22.html

Here is that thread/page. You can see a wide range of morphology, as these have been selected over a period of time that may well be 60+ years from no doubt 1,000 of neonates and hatchling enduring the trials of nature. NOT intensely selected and pushed to thrive by people over 20+ years. At least leopard gecko, ball python, and bearded dragon breeders call it what it is, selective breeding in captivity. I guess the slow turnaround for tortoises gives breeders time to conjure up POV's that don't have traction any other way, than to say it's scientifically described subspecies, ones that scientists don't recognize any more.

That there are differences is without doubt. That they may be based on a micro gene pool that MAY have locality data, either as described or from another location, but still all one 'wild type' population is probable too.

The argument that there is no 'wild' and yet these are specific locality animals from the wild do not reconcile with each other. I think there is wild myself, and that you can select animals both in captivity and from the wild for certain traits is 100% true.

I saw just a small bit of southern South Africa, almost entirely confined to the Western Cape Province. I did not get on the southern coast, Addo, or the most north west coast. But the variability of leopards in that smallish area certainly speaks to incredible variability that defies 'subspecies' recognition or status. In Bill Branch's book on southern African herps he abandon the notion before the genetics were scrutinized.

I find some leopards more attractive than others, and like some super special bearded dragon that changes color as it ages or whatever, it seems reasonable to charge more for those hatchlings. This is based on selective breeding, not systematics.

 

[Neal]

You all sound like shade tree mechanics calling engine parts "thingamajigs" "doohickeys", 'shiny round parts' and those things that "make that sound".

Will, I accept your above statement as being an accurate description of myself. We had a similar conversation awhile ago and I will re-iterate here that I, for one, am simply trying to make the most sense out of what I have available with the understanding that my conclusions may not be scientifically sound. I've tried to improve in calling them variants vs. hybrids or subspecies, but I do indeed still feel like one of them "shade tree mechanics". If I had the capacity and ability to educate myself further on this matter, I would, but I accept my current understanding as sufficient for my current needs, while at the same time being open to better thoughts and ideas, and I won't hesitate to share my thoughts...it is after all a tortoise forum for hobbyists of all levels of experience, yes? I'm not going to hide in my shell because I don't understand something completely....just like the tortoise I'll stick my neck out and you types that know better can walk on me all you want...but it's the only way I'll learn more.

Anyways, it was a good discussion relevant to this topic so here's a link to our previous conversation on the matter for anyone interested.
http://www.tortoiseforum.org/post-717582.html#pid717582

You said "you can see leopards from all over all of South Africa in an online Atlas project", could you provide a link to this? I'm sure I could find this on my own eventually, but to expedite things I'd appreciate a link since you are already aware of this existing.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

http://sarca.adu.org.za/

use the "virtual museum" link on the left side of the page, and then in the new page use the "search VM" link. Use the form for what you want to see. You don't have to worry about the log in, and you don't have to be a 'poster' for it.

It is only South Africa, and a few other countries in southern Africa, it is not continent wide, but it still shows 366 leopards within the small part of the range they exists in.

I'm sure after the many hours of virtual travel and looking at leopards you will agree, they are very variable, even on a small scale of their entire range.

As an example, redfoot tortoise breeders call their animals by the locality data they have, as there is no improper taxonomy to hang names on.

Neal, for what it's worth shade tree mechanics don't need proper terms when talking to other shade tree mechanics, there is a developed dialogue for the purpose of fixing a car. If it works - great. But using terms such as I pointed out does not work in a crowd mixed with those who have a grasp of it, as I'm sure you do at a much higher level than you give yourself credit for, and for people who make "lets play Barbie" tortoise tables. All these folks are good tortoise people, but pseudo science as real science is like that shade tree mechanic saying that because they can fix a Honda by replacing the thingamajig, they ought to tune up a formula 1 car for a race at Indy.

By the time the shade tree mechs are in the pits at Indy, they have learned all those terms and use them well.

I'd like to think that I have had some little bit of influence so that all the folks who read these kinds of threads see that the animals are a selected expression of a wild type. A wild type based on a science that names them according to a criteria (dynamic as it may be). Even the giant orange and albino leopard geckoes are still Eublepharis macularius, and most all the people who use the term mean a leopard gecko, even if the person who says they have an albino leopard gecko does not know the latin name. There is not foolery that it is a new species, or an old species name no longer used.

I'm not a Systematics scientists, but I can read the papers, interpret what has been written, and follow it, as virtually most all people on TFO could, should the interest or desire spark them to do so. One difference, I have read it, and am interested in it, so much so I post the information here.

You'd be right that sometimes I forget where I am when I post here on TFO, as exampled by a recent suit of images that included Geometric tortoises, followed by folks positioning themselves for the fantasy that I was making a cryptic 'for sale' post, not just sharing the wonder of cool looking tortoises in-situ. It's a mixed bag, and I am a compulsive sorter.

 

[Mgridgaway]

I zoned out on this thread for a few days but now I'm back.

Will, thank you for the information. It is a bit more high brow than my interest in Leopard tortoises (beyond pet ownership) is, but it was interesting nonetheless. I think you lose a lot of power in your messaging, though. Starting a good dialogue out with an insult, however harmless, is not a good way to endear people to what you're trying to say. Referring to some tortoise owners as "let's play Barbie" only hurts your argument, no matter how valid and factual.

But ultimately, I get where you're coming from. Though my special brand of hated pseudo-science is different from yours, I know exactly how you feel when you see people carelessly throwing about woowoo as if it were fact. So thanks for keeping things scientific.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

That is funny. Remember, maybe you are younger than required to remember, the bean shaped plastic bowl with a little palm tree for RES? Not too different than a tortoise table for a hatchling.

The short of it is, it seems folks want to maintain some way to name or otherwise characterize some favorable traits that occur in leopards. Well that does make good sense, if those traits are aesthetic, or based on what may or may not be a founder group from a particular importation. Not like any of these are ever going to be used for repatration.

But for example, for now going on near 30 years, Ron Tremper still has a colony of redfoots from a single importation in 1985, that have a distinct appearance.

In other species, like for example Forsten's tortoise there may or may not be a nuchal scute. I suspect, people may well breed the nuchal out, its a indeterminate diagnostic.

Any of these things could have been used in taxonomy at some point, but were not. The variability in leopards and their resulting morphology is much greater than type I with two or more spot per scute as a hatchling, and type II, with one or no spots. What about the images I have seen where the spots per scute is three, with a few having four? Shall we go borrow even older more antiquated taxanomic designations for them?

I've read some folks in one post describe disdain for the latinized nameing system, while another post will hinge on which "subspecies" of leopard they have, while yet the next post represents being honest about an intent to distribute true and accurate information. In short the effort is the maintain the dollar value distinction.

Well that's great, I get it, if I all of a sudden I had all yellow or all black pancakes, I would absolutely charge much more for them.

But I don't pretend to have a disdain for color morphs, and selective breeding, while selectivly breeding and calling it some sort of conservation genetics program. That level of rebranding activity brings so much confusion to an interest where many good people are seeking accurate information, not just on care and husbandry, but also some of the science and actual conservation POVs.

Including the "lets play barbie" tortoise table folks, as the very next sentence in that paragraph mentions - that they too are good tortoise people. At least some of today's chelonian conservation scientists had a RES in a bean shaped pool with a plastic palm tree. It seems Lets Play Barbie tortoise table is a fair approximation for terrestrial chelonians to those plastic palm tree habitats of not so many years ago.

Back on leopards, have you seen the high spot leopards, you know those when as adults have a higher black pattern than the low spot count leopards, with hypo this or heyero that foe being less spotted. WTF? The high black spot leopard bred to be more not spotted.

These are however appropriately labeled. What of an albino high spot leopard?

I like the intense spotting and the rounder, not so elongate shell shape myself. In the post Neal links to I suggested, half joking, that the American Tortoise Breeds Association ought to be formed. Breeds, not species or subspecies. When selecting for aesthetic traits, you are creating breeds, not maintaining viable groups of wild type tortoises based on population genetics or conservation.

I read some posters are going to school now, and have the cute tortoise table, I imagine, frankly strongly hope, that in another 10+ years I'll be reading their leopard tortoise conservation genetics paper in google scholar. If they breed 5 spot leopards instead, well that's cool too.

 

[Saleama]

All the scientific talk aside, I would have to agree with Will in that there are traits in certain Leopards that I find more attractive and would be willing to pay more for those traits. Fortunatly for me, those traits don't require me to do so. So in the manner of a shade tree mechanic, which , with torts, I am, I will blissfully remain happy with my choices and if I do get a Golith Leo with mad spots then Yay me. Also, what is wrong with the "Let's play Barbie" table for hatchlings? What am I supposed to do? Buy a $300 PET tortoise and let it run wild in my back yard subjected to the "natural" cycle of life or death? Please elaborate Will. If a closed chamber tort table is not what you would raise your pet, not wild baby tortoises in, what would you consider a better alternative? My closed chamber table seems to be working great for my Sullys but my Leos, while smooth as butter, are growing really slow so if there is, in your experience, a better way for them, please, do tell.

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

All the scientific talk aside, I would have to agree with Will in that there are traits in certain Leopards that I find more attractive and would be willing to pay more for those traits. Fortunatly for me, those traits don't require me to do so. So in the manner of a shade tree mechanic, which , with torts, I am, I will blissfully remain happy with my choices and if I do get a Golith Leo with mad spots then Yay me. Also, what is wrong with the "Let's play Barbie" table for hatchlings? What am I supposed to do? Buy a $300 PET tortoise and let it run wild in my back yard subjected to the "natural" cycle of life or death? Please elaborate Will. If a closed chamber tort table is not what you would raise your pet, not wild baby tortoises in, what would you consider a better alternative? My closed chamber table seems to be working great for my Sullys but my Leos, while smooth as butter, are growing really slow so if there is, in your experience, a better way for them, please, do tell.

I'll elaborate on a separate thread called "Let's play Barbie", It could also be GI Joe just as well.

As for leopards and subspecies. In what I thought of as a humorous bit of conversation with someone in-person, lets use 'pardalis' as code for the average number of spot per scute on neonates. One or no spots we will call them pardalis, two or more spots we will call them pardalis pardalis, three or more spots we will call them pardalis pardalis pardalis. You see where I'm going. That's about as accurate a name as any other.

 

[Saleama]

All the scientific talk aside, I would have to agree with Will in that there are traits in certain Leopards that I find more attractive and would be willing to pay more for those traits. Fortunatly for me, those traits don't require me to do so. So in the manner of a shade tree mechanic, which , with torts, I am, I will blissfully remain happy with my choices and if I do get a Golith Leo with mad spots then Yay me. Also, what is wrong with the "Let's play Barbie" table for hatchlings? What am I supposed to do? Buy a $300 PET tortoise and let it run wild in my back yard subjected to the "natural" cycle of life or death? Please elaborate Will. If a closed chamber tort table is not what you would raise your pet, not wild baby tortoises in, what would you consider a better alternative? My closed chamber table seems to be working great for my Sullys but my Leos, while smooth as butter, are growing really slow so if there is, in your experience, a better way for them, please, do tell.

I'll elaborate on a separate thread called "Let's play Barbie", It could also be GI Joe just as well.

As for leopards and subspecies. In what I thought of as a humorous bit of conversation with someone in-person, lets use 'pardalis' as code for the average number of spot per scute on neonates. One or no spots we will call them pardalis, two or more spots we will call them pardalis pardalis, three or more spots we will call them pardalis pardalis pardalis. You see where I'm going. That's about as accurate a name as any other.

lol... I do understand. I love the no spot ones so I am in no danger of over paying for extra spots.