Giant tortoises size comparison

JTExotics

Member
Joined
Sep 12, 2018
Messages
28
Location (City and/or State)
Lewes, DE

Michael231

Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2016
Messages
90
Location (City and/or State)
California
Quite interesting to hear about the Manouria getting that big! @Kapidolo Farms @ColaCarbonaria do you know what subspecies it was? The reason I ask is based on what I have heard the mainland subspecies Manouria emys phayrei tend to get larger in nature. However, I've not heard of any surpassing 70 pounds. 110 is quite a jump! I'm just curious if the particular specimen you are mentioning is a member of the larger subspecies or if it is a Manouria emys emys. If it is the latter, it seems like there might be a parallel between Stigmochelys and Manouria regarding size, given that in most leopard tortoises pardalis pardalis seems to get the largest in most parts of the range, except where babcocki gets massive around Addis Ababa.

Could it be that Manouria follow this same pattern where the "larger" subspecies isn't always the "largest"?

Of course, this is where the subspecies debate comes into play, as to whether or not babcocki is really a variety of tortoise...

What are your guys' thoughts?
 

Michael231

Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2016
Messages
90
Location (City and/or State)
California
Also, it seems like with all the tortoises discussed thus far that there is a variety that gets very large. With the Aldabras and Galaps most of them are very large to begin with, but even with Galaps (I'm not so sure about aldabra's given how small their current range is) as @JTExotics has pointed out certain varieties get much bigger than the rest. I wonder if this is the same thing with Manouria, and it just hasn't been discovered as of yet...Given that Manouria is probably the most understudied and under-represented in captive situations.

They did just discovery the sister species to the black mountain tortoise in extreme northeastern India, meaning maybe there are Manouria emys populations out there somewhere in Southeast Asia we haven't even discovered....

Just some thinking out loud...

But it would be pretty awesome to discover a population of giants!
 

Kapidolo Farms

Well-Known Member
Tortoise Club
5 Year Member
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Nov 7, 2012
Messages
5,084
Location (City and/or State)
South of Southern California, but not Mexico
Also, it seems like with all the tortoises discussed thus far that there is a variety that gets very large. With the Aldabras and Galaps most of them are very large to begin with, but even with Galaps (I'm not so sure about aldabra's given how small their current range is) as @JTExotics has pointed out certain varieties get much bigger than the rest. I wonder if this is the same thing with Manouria, and it just hasn't been discovered as of yet...Given that Manouria is probably the most understudied and under-represented in captive situations.

They did just discovery the sister species to the black mountain tortoise in extreme northeastern India, meaning maybe there are Manouria emys populations out there somewhere in Southeast Asia we haven't even discovered....

Just some thinking out loud...

But it would be pretty awesome to discover a population of giants!
I believe Vic's large tortoise is M.e.p. the other subspecies is M.e.e and is also on the mainland as well as islands. The "new" species found in India is really a range extension of Manouria impressa the third taxon in the genus.

Manouria emys emys
Manouria emys phayrei
Manouria impressa

There are extinct forms as well.
 

Michael231

Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2016
Messages
90
Location (City and/or State)
California
I believe Vic's large tortoise is M.e.p. the other subspecies is M.e.e and is also on the mainland as well as islands. The "new" species found in India is really a range extension of Manouria impressa the third taxon in the genus.

Manouria emys emys
Manouria emys phayrei
Manouria impressa

There are extinct forms as well.

Interesting, so it seems like that large 110 pound individual did follow the phayrei pattern of being larger than emys emys.

Concerning the impressa, based on the two photos that I've seen of the Arunachal specimens it seems like those two individuals look very different from photos of impressa I've seen from other countries (Thailand, Vietnam, and a group in captivity in California that I'm assuming got into the U.S. via a confiscation from Vietnam or China). Do you guys think the new locale extension might represent a new morphological variant of this species? I mean I only have two specimens to base this question off of, but the Arunachal specimens are much darker than the rest pictured below and have an extremely dark neck.

Turlte-confiscated-Mo-Duc-District-Quang-Ngai-19Oct10-iwtmk-red.jpg


-Impressa confiscated in Vietnam, not necessarily from Vietnam, but every individual has a relatively light-brown colored carapace and a pale beige head (from the heads I can see).
From: http://www.asianturtleprogram.org/p...2010/manouria_impressa_confiscation_2010.html


82079d9f-bb34-4582-83c8-f7a4604c4729


-Impressa from Thailand, with some black mottling around the head.
From:


-Impressa from Northern Myanmar, very mottled and light colored
From: https://phys.org/news/2017-01-tortoise-big-range.html

Now for the two Arunachal Pradesh individuals;

122608-cvwqohpwgt-1561481926.jpg

eastmojo%2F2019-06%2F982efcec-dd82-4fce-8978-f4d2a016b123%2F8.jpeg


To me these individuals seem very dark colored and display very dark colored necks compared to the others.
From: https://www.google.com/search?q=imp...AUIECgB&biw=1280&bih=610#imgrc=4tXtkRQLIgs4RM:
And:
https://www.google.com/search?q=imp...AUIECgB&biw=1280&bih=610#imgrc=RErGz6TgZJlD_M:
 

Kapidolo Farms

Well-Known Member
Tortoise Club
5 Year Member
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Nov 7, 2012
Messages
5,084
Location (City and/or State)
South of Southern California, but not Mexico
I would GUESS a geographic variant. I have seen M. impressa while in Viet Nam, that had been caught in Lao that had actual green color on the shell. I have a slide somewhere of that individual.

Interesting, so it seems like that large 110 pound individual did follow the phayrei pattern of being larger than emys emys.

Concerning the impressa, based on the two photos that I've seen of the Arunachal specimens it seems like those two individuals look very different from photos of impressa I've seen from other countries (Thailand, Vietnam, and a group in captivity in California that I'm assuming got into the U.S. via a confiscation from Vietnam or China). Do you guys think the new locale extension might represent a new morphological variant of this species? I mean I only have two specimens to base this question off of, but the Arunachal specimens are much darker than the rest pictured below and have an extremely dark neck.

Turlte-confiscated-Mo-Duc-District-Quang-Ngai-19Oct10-iwtmk-red.jpg


-Impressa confiscated in Vietnam, not necessarily from Vietnam, but every individual has a relatively light-brown colored carapace and a pale beige head (from the heads I can see).
From: http://www.asianturtleprogram.org/p...2010/manouria_impressa_confiscation_2010.html


82079d9f-bb34-4582-83c8-f7a4604c4729


-Impressa from Thailand, with some black mottling around the head.
From:


-Impressa from Northern Myanmar, very mottled and light colored
From: https://phys.org/news/2017-01-tortoise-big-range.html

Now for the two Arunachal Pradesh individuals;

122608-cvwqohpwgt-1561481926.jpg







eastmojo%2F2019-06%2F982efcec-dd82-4fce-8978-f4d2a016b123%2F8.jpeg


To me these individuals seem very dark colored and display very dark colored necks compared to the others.
From: https://www.google.com/search?q=imp...AUIECgB&biw=1280&bih=610#imgrc=4tXtkRQLIgs4RM:
And:
https://www.google.com/search?q=imp...AUIECgB&biw=1280&bih=610#imgrc=RErGz6TgZJlD_M:
 

Michael231

Member
Joined
Jul 17, 2016
Messages
90
Location (City and/or State)
California
I would GUESS a geographic variant. I have seen M. impressa while in Viet Nam, that had been caught in Lao that had actual green color on the shell. I have a slide somewhere of that individual.

That’s awesome! They must have been hard to find!
 
Top