Geoemyda...

CharlieM

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IMG_0430.JPG This is a great book written by @Anthony P
There isn't much on the web so it's nice to get some clear organized info.
Apparently not many people work with them or if they have g. japonica they may not discuss it based on the controversy. Wish more people would be more open about such cool turtles.
 

Tom

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Japonica have been designated as a National Natural Monument of Japan. Captive turtles are strictly forbidden.
Strictly forbidden where? In Japan? Or everywhere in the world? What about CB specimens bred outside of Japan? What a curious thing. Sounds similar to the Indonesian government's stance on the Komodo Dragon. I wonder how many American animals are all over the world right now and what would happen if the US said, "Hey. All of those are ours. Possession is forbidden."
 

CharlieM

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If anyone knows people who maybe are not on the forum but might be willing to discuss g. Japonica please send me a pm.
 

Anthony P

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I will discuss japonica, haha.

@Tom, japonica were virtually never let out of Japan legally, and when they were, on our end, they either came here with paperwork that said G spengleri or came from Hong Kong, labelled as CB, which almost certainly wasn't happening in Hong Kong at the time. Japan knows they never let any out legally since they became a Natural National Monument on June 26, 1975. But who's keeping track?

Many common species never really came here legally, like Bearded Dragons. So, I often pose the question, when does a species become Americanized? How many generations of captive breeding? All of my japonica are captive bred. Does that make them legal? When I met with Tom Crutchfield, he used the phrase "the fruit of the diseased tree," or something to that effect... meaning that the offspring can't be legal because the adults never got here legally.

All that said, how do you prove that the animals weren't captive bred in Hong Kong like the paperwork said and how do you prove that they weren't around before 1975? I never broke the law by buying captive bred japonica that were born in the US.

How's that for a bit of conversation on G. japonica, @CharlieM?
 

cdmay

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I will discuss japonica, haha.

@Tom, japonica were virtually never let out of Japan legally, and when they were, on our end, they either came here with paperwork that said G spengleri or came from Hong Kong, labelled as CB, which almost certainly wasn't happening in Hong Kong at the time. Japan knows they never let any out legally since they became a Natural National Monument on June 26, 1975. But who's keeping track?

Many common species never really came here legally, like Bearded Dragons. So, I often pose the question, when does a species become Americanized? How many generations of captive breeding? All of my japonica are captive bred. Does that make them legal? When I met with Tom Crutchfield, he used the phrase "the fruit of the diseased tree," or something to that effect... meaning that the offspring can't be legal because the adults never got here legally.

All that said, how do you prove that the animals weren't captive bred in Hong Kong like the paperwork said and how do you prove that they weren't around before 1975? I never broke the law by buying captive bred japonica that were born in the US.

How's that for a bit of conversation on G. japonica, @CharlieM?


Those are interesting points for sure Anthony.
The same could be said regarding 'jungle' carpet pythons and pretty much anything else from Australia, Peruvian red-tailed boas, rainbow boas imported after 1975 and so on. But the Aussies aren't bothering to come here to confiscate their stuff, the Peruvians never cared in the first place and the US Feds don't care either. That's where we are now.
I'm sure that the same applies to the japonica here in the US as well. Tom Crutchfield's quote should read, "fruit of the poisonous tree" which is a legal term applied to evidence collected during an illegal search and seizure. It means that anything that results from such an illegal act (on the part of the authorities) no matter how compelling, cannot be used as evidence against a suspect. Similarly, offspring from illegally imported animals are also not legal. and technically, never will be. But when was the last time you ever heard of such things being seized? The mid 80's? Even then I don't recall offspring of illegally imported animals being confiscated.

Charlie brings up the real problem of keepers who are paranoid regarding their animals. It tends to suffocate discussion.
As a perfect example, I have a good friend who has maintained a japonica for over 30 years that he obtained from another keeper who had them for a number of years. He had a pair originally, but one of them died--presumably from old age--a few years back. Yet even now, he maintains a hush hush, and SHHHH! demeanor when discussing them. It's ridiculous. Nobody is interested in confiscating them. But for many that fear remains.
BTW, that same guy has spengleri that he's kept for 25 or 30 years too. That's what I call 'long term'.
 

Anthony P

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Great points @cdmay! I read just about everything written on spengleri and japonica in preparation for my book, and also interviewed many keepers. Never saw anything about them ever being confiscated here... And I don't mean from someone's collection, I mean even during attempted importation under fake or erroneous paperwork or when being smuggled. I'm sure these things have happened. I've just never heard of it.

Hope you guys are safe (@CharlieM and @cdmay and others) :-/ You are in my thoughts and prayers.
 

CharlieM

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Hope someday these will be common here and talked about much more.
 

Cowboy_Ken

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I
will discuss
Many common species never really came here legally, like Bearded Dragons. So, I often pose the question, when does a species become Americanized? How many generations of captive breeding? All of my japonica are captive bred. Does that make them legal? When I met with Tom Crutchfield, he used the phrase "the fruit of the diseased tree," or something to that effect... meaning that the offspring can't be legal because the adults never got here legally.
[/USER]?
Don’t we currently have in this here USofA a political argument taking place talkin’ these same points?
 
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