Generally incompetent tortoise owner, I need advice on tortoise set up

[LeahK]

Hey everyone! I am totally new to this forum. However, I’ve had my Russian tortoise Tywin for just over 6 months now. I bought him from a pet store and got caretaking instructions from them. I wanted to come here for some good advice!

This is a long and rambling post, and I’m sure all my questions have been answered elsewhere. If you could even share links to resources, I’d really appreciate it!

I have so many questions now.

Yesterday, I noticed that the shell on Tywin's belly was cracked! I went into panic mode and got him to a vet today. I’ve attached a photo of his chip. The vet said he was otherwise healthy, and gave me antibiotics, and shaved down the shell around the area.

I am pretty sure he got chipped from a “food dish” I bought off amazon, that’s also supposed to file his nails. I really messed up there - it had a sharp edge, and the vet told me his nails don’t need to be filed anyway.

I don’t want him to get hurt again through my incompetence, so I’m here to ask for help and to make sure I can keep tywin happy.

I have also attached a picture of his current enclosure set up (without the little water dish he has). It’s 4’x2’, and Tywin is about 6-7 inches long. I want to look more into building enclosures on this forum, but since I’m busy with work for the next few months, is this sufficient? Also, he has the lights (that the pet store sold me) that I now know are wrong for tortoises, after browsing on the forum. Are there places online I can buy better lights?

I use oat hay as his substrate, as the pet store told me that he’s a very messy eater. I keep the hay dry, and clean and replace it regularly. Is this something I should switchup?

I soak Tywin once a day, in the mornings. I also keep a very small water dish in his cage that he rarely uses. I do not check the humidity of his enclosure at all, or spray anything. Is this something that is necessary for Russian torts?

Tywin absolutely lovesssss radicchio, so I basically give it to him every day. Is it bad to let him eat the same thing every day, even if I change other greens up? Otherwise, the vet told me today that he needs more fiber in his diet (as she saw him do a massive, wet poop at the vet today lol).

Finally, he’s a very active and curious tortoise. Even the vet commented on it today! He does not stay still and was trying very hard to explore. Since building a Very massive enclosure in my apartment is not feasible right now, what can I do to make sure he has the space to explore?

Thank you so much for any advice you can give me! I really appreciate it. I look forward to learning more from this forum!

 

[KarenSoCal]

Hello, and welcome to TFO!

Well, as you sort of stated yourself, almost everything you're doing needs to be changed. The good news is that he's a fully grown adult, so you don't have to contend with hatchling needs.

The items you brought up in your post...

Pet stores for the most part, and most vets also, don't have a clue how to properly maintain and care for tortoises. You can forget whatever the pet store said.

Even the vet I'm not sure about. What antibiotics did he give you? Did he give your tortoise any injections? I don't see anything that looks infected at that chip site. Generally, torts should not be given antibiotics unless there is a good reason. They don't do well on them...they often stop eating for a long time. Personally, I would not give a systemic antibiotic for this. I'd smear a little Triple Antibiotic cream on it each day til it fills in a bit. I'll tag members who will chime in on this. Go by what they say.
@zovick
@Yvonne G

His water dish should be a clay flower pot saucer big enough for him to climb into. Also his food dish should be the same. The rough surface will help keep his beak, and nails, trimmed down.

His enclosure is half the minimum size he requires. Torts need lots of space to walk in order to digest their food. You said apartment...is there a place where you could put an outdoor enclosure? He would really appreciate some outdoor time. But you still need an indoor enclosure of 8'x4'. Some members build 2 level tables to increase space, but sometimes the tort uses it and sometimes not.

Your lights. The best basking bulb is an incandescent flood bulb from the hardware store, probably 65 watts. Since we cannot buy them in CA any more, you may have to think outside the box to get your hands on one. You also can't order them online...vendors cannot ship them here.

For UVB, if you could take Tywin outside for an hour 3 or 4 times a week, you would not need indoor UVB. If you cannot do that, this is what you want to get in an appropriate length...

Arcadia ProT5 UVB Kit (Includes Hood)

ProT5 is a highly adaptable lighting kit with high quality internal electronics, a high effective but removable reflector, power cable, fittings kit, free link cable and choice of Arcadia Reptile HO-T5 UV-B lamp. ProT5 uses the very finest electrical components to ensure safe running and long...

reptilighting.com

At night, unless your apartment is in a deep freeze state, you shouldn't need any night heat.

Hay is not good. Fine grade orchid (fir) bark, cypress mulch, or coco coir is best. Tywin does need humidity, so you dampen the substrate to increase humidity.

Radicchio is a good food, but torts need a wide variety of different foods to get all their nutrients. At the grocery store, get endive or escarole as a staple along with the radicchio. Then add other greens, weeds, flowers, etc. At the end of this post I will post a very long list of foods. The more you can supply the better.

Here is our care sheet for Russians. It's written for hatchlings, but will give you background knowledge that is valuable, as well as care for adults. Please read it, and come back with questions and concerns. We're happy to explain why we say what we do.

The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...

www.tortoiseforum.org

Compiled by Tom:
Good foods for tortoises are "chicories," types of lettuce that are likely to be on the far side of the more common floppy green heads of lettuce most people buy. Anything labeled as simply "chicory" is good, as are radiccio, frisee, escarole, and endive; you might even find something labeled as dandelions. You may find a bag of "Spring" or "Spicy" mix that is good, just check the label to be sure it has some of the chicories I just mentioned. The leaves (just the leaves) of turnips and radishes are also good, as are carrot tops. Collards, mustard greens, bok choy, and other dark, leafy greens are okay as well. If you have any kind of Mexican/hispanic market near you, they will sell cactus, labeled "nopales." Cactus is a great food to rotate in the diet, as it is high in calcium.



You don't need to feed all of these at one time, just make sure your tortoise is getting access to different types of food. As you get more experienced, you can find the better types of food listed on the care sheets.


Here are a whole bunch of non-grocery store suggestions.


Mulberry leaves
Grape vine leaves
Hibiscus leaves
African hibiscus leaves
Blue hibiscus leaves
Rose of Sharon leaves
Rose leaves
Geraniums
Gazanias
Nasturtium
Lavatera
Pansies
Petunias
Hostas
Honeysuckle
Cape honeysuckle
Leaves and blooms from any squash plant, like pumpkin, cucumber, summer squash, etc...
Young spineless opuntia cactus pads


Weeds:


There are soooooooo many...
Dandelion
Mallow
Filaree
Smooth Sow thistle
Prickly Sow thistle
Milk thistle
Goat head weed
Cats ear
Nettles
Trefoil
Wild onion
Wild mustard
Wild Garlic
Clovers
Broadleaf plantain
Narrow leaf plantain
Chick weed
Hawksbit
Hensbit
Hawksbeard


Other good stuff:

Category: Organic sourced diet items

kapidolofarms.com

"Testudo Seed Mix" from http://www.tortoisesupply.com/SeedMixes


Pasture mixes or other seeds from http://www.groworganic.com/seeds.html


Homegrown alfalfa


Mazuri Tortoise Chow


ZooMed Grassland Tortoise Food


Ones that you can buy in every store:
Arugula
Lambs lettuce
Chicory
Kale
Mustard greens
Organic kohlrabi leafs
Organic carrot leafs
Organic radish leafs
Dandelions
Radiccio


Their main diet should be broad leaf weeds, succulents and grasses. Store bought foods are okay, but not the best. Collards and dandelions are a good food, but neither should be used every day. Check out the plant ID section for lots of ideas on weeds to feed. You can get spineless opuntia cactus pads from most Mexican grocery stores, or grow them yourself. You can also easily grow grape leaves, african hibiscus, regular hibiscus (if it will survive in your area), and mulberry leaves. You can try red apple, ice plant, and jade plant too. Also look into Gazania, pansies, nasturtiums, carnations, geraniums and many others. At the grocery store, favor endive and escarole, but also use cilantro, carrot tops, mustard and turnip greens, bok choy, radiccio, swiss chard, watercress, parsley, all the lettuces, etc. Lots of variety is best. There are also tortoise "weed" seed mixes that you can grow. I like the "Testudo Mix" from Tortoisesupply.com.
Buckwheat; cactus; vetch; Mohave aster; creosote bush; desert four o’clock; tacoma stans; bladderpod; globe mallow; goldenhead; burro weed; so many things!

 

[TortoiseWarrior]

Good advice there...welcome

 

[Yvonne G]

Hi, and welcome to the Forum!

The fact that you were given an antibiotic for a shell chip simply amazes me. Of course, he saw the actual tortoise, while I'm only seeing a picture of the chip, but to me it looks like something old and healed and not needing any attention (certainly not antibiotic).

If you could buy another of those enclosures, take out opposing ends and hook them up together, you would have a good size enclosure for your full grown Russian tortoise. Then treat the wood to protect it from moist substrate, or line it with a shower curtain liner. Feed him on a rough surface (a broken piece of cement, a rough rock, etc.) to help file his beak down. Use a clay plant saucer for water, and sink it down into the substrate. I like to use fine grade orchid bark for substrate, but lots of folks use coco coir or cypress mulch.

 

[Maro2Bear]

All great advice above. I’m curious though on the alleged dish that you think caused that chip in the shell. Can you post a pix? That chip looks like it’s been there for a long time, nothing really recent. I’m not sure how a tortoise in a small cage has enough space to fall hard enough to produce such an injury.

good luck!

 

[LeahK]

All great advice above. I’m curious though on the alleged dish that you think caused that chip in the shell. Can you post a pix? That chip looks like it’s been there for a long time, nothing really recent. I’m not sure how a tortoise in a small cage has enough space to fall hard enough to produce such an injury.

good luck!

Here’s the pictures of the dish! The only reason I thought it could be the dish is because I got it in the last two weeks, and it has sharp edges. Do you think this could be it? If it looks older than two weeks, then 3 weeks ago I drove him across the country in a glass cage, but as far as I know, he was not sliding around.

I am not sure how he did it and that is what scares me too.

 

[Golden Greek Tortoise 567]

Read this care sheet for our Russians,

The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...

www.tortoiseforum.org

 

[Maro2Bear]

Here’s the pictures of the dish! The only reason I thought it could be the dish is because I got it in the last two weeks, and it has sharp edges. Do you think this could be it? If it looks older than two weeks, then 3 weeks ago I drove him across the country in a glass cage, but as far as I know, he was not sliding around.

I am not sure how he did it and that is what scares me too.

Thanks. I’m pretty certain that that piece of slate did not cause that shell to break away & chip like that.
anyhow, good luck.

 

[mark1]

i agree , healthy shell doesn't chip away easily ....... it may have just come off , but there was a problem at that site before it came off ........ i'd guess either a underlying bacterial or fungal infection in that area , it appears to radiate out from a seam , which such things do ..... near the leading edge does appear active , i'd imagine what the vet debrided ? personally i'd keep it clean until it dries up , probably put an antibiotic on it until it looked dry ......

 

[LeahK]

@KarenSoCal Thank you so much for the thoughtful response. Everything you posted was very helpful, and I'll be updating everything. I had a few follow-ups too though.

From the vet, I got chlorhexidine solution to apply to the wound every 3 days until it's healed. The vet was on the fence about oral antibiotics, and said if Tywin took it, it would be preventative. I opted to take it to be on the safe-side, but after your responses, I will not feed him the antibiotic. Yvonne was wondering about this too, so I wanted to post it.

I have no outdoor space, so I cannot build an outdoor enclosure. Assuming I update the lights in his indoor enclosure, is it good if I just put substrate and a cover in a plastic storage bin and took him outside like that? Or is it better if he just stays in his indoor enclosure?

As for his indoor enclosure, I am planning on buying a second of the one I have now and connecting it so that it's 2'x8'. I am not in the financial place to buy one of the ideal enclosures that seem to cost $700+. It is safe to say that I did not know what I was getting myself into when I got Tywin! Are there more cost effective options? I am going to explore the page on building enclosures to see if I can pull something together too.

Otherwise, that was it! There is so much conflicting information on feeding tortoises on the internet. For example, I read that arugula was too spicy for them, but now it seems like it's fine! I will be doing some experimenting to see what I can grow and what he will eat.

Thank you again! I really appreciate it.

 

[zovick]

Here’s the pictures of the dish! The only reason I thought it could be the dish is because I got it in the last two weeks, and it has sharp edges. Do you think this could be it? If it looks older than two weeks, then 3 weeks ago I drove him across the country in a glass cage, but as far as I know, he was not sliding around.

I am not sure how he did it and that is what scares me too.

That chip happened LONG before you ever owned that tortoise. It needs to be thoroughly and carefully debrided and cleaned up by a vet who really knows what he/she is doing if you want it treated/corrected. The vet you saw apparently did no debriding and cleaning of the area or did I miss that? It needs to be ground away very carefully with a Dremel Moto Tool or carefully hand done with dental scalers to remove the dead bone and scute material. THEN treated with the antibiotic ointment and possibly injectable antibiotics as well.

 

[LeahK]

That chip happened LONG before you ever owned that tortoise. It needs to be thoroughly and carefully debrided and cleaned up by a vet who really knows what he/she is doing if you want it treated/corrected. The vet you saw apparently did no debriding and cleaning of the area or did I miss that? It needs to be ground away very carefully with a Dremel Moto Tool or carefully hand done with dental scalers to remove the dead bone and scute material. THEN treated with the antibiotic ointment and possibly injectable antibiotics as well.

Wow, good to know! I've had him for about 6 months now, and I am ashamed to say that I never noticed it. The vet did shave it down and clean it at the visit yesterday, so it is all smooth now.

 

[zovick]

Wow, good to know! I've had him for about 6 months now, and I am ashamed to say that I never noticed it. The vet did shave it down and clean it at the visit yesterday, so it is all smooth now.

That sounds good. Do you perhaps have a photo of the area after it was done?

On another note, if the tortoise needs systemic rather than, or in addition to, a topical antibiotic cream, it is a lot easier and more accurate to give it an injection than try to feed it the meds orally.

 

[KarenSoCal]

@KarenSoCal Thank you so much for the thoughtful response. Everything you posted was very helpful, and I'll be updating everything. I had a few follow-ups too though.

From the vet, I got chlorhexidine solution to apply to the wound every 3 days until it's healed. The vet was on the fence about oral antibiotics, and said if Tywin took it, it would be preventative. I opted to take it to be on the safe-side, but after your responses, I will not feed him the antibiotic. Yvonne was wondering about this too, so I wanted to post it.

I have no outdoor space, so I cannot build an outdoor enclosure. Assuming I update the lights in his indoor enclosure, is it good if I just put substrate and a cover in a plastic storage bin and took him outside like that? Or is it better if he just stays in his indoor enclosure?

As for his indoor enclosure, I am planning on buying a second of the one I have now and connecting it so that it's 2'x8'. I am not in the financial place to buy one of the ideal enclosures that seem to cost $700+. It is safe to say that I did not know what I was getting myself into when I got Tywin! Are there more cost effective options? I am going to explore the page on building enclosures to see if I can pull something together too.

Otherwise, that was it! There is so much conflicting information on feeding tortoises on the internet. For example, I read that arugula was too spicy for them, but now it seems like it's fine! I will be doing some experimenting to see what I can grow and what he will eat.

Thank you again! I really appreciate it.

Chlorhexadine is good stuff. Just be aware that it can stain. So if Tywin's injured area gets dark, don't worry.

Any way you can get him outside is great. A plastic bin would work, with cautions. You want him in the sun, but they can overheat quickly. So he needs access to shade as well as sun. If you cover the top of the bin, UVB does not pass through glass, plastic, or screening. Some people use kiddie's swimming pools for hatchlings, but you'd have to be very vigilant because Tywin could probably climb right out. And you'd need somewhere to store the pool.

What you should not do is put him on the ground loose. If you glance away for a moment, he'll be gone. And be sure the grass you put him on is chemical free. Some people have fashioned leashes for their tortoises. They seem to work OK.

Connecting another enclosure like you have sounds good. The size isn't optimal, but you have to work with the space you have. Anything else you would use isn't going to increase the space available, so why switch?

And yes, there is way too much conflicting advice. That's why we tell new members to forget what they've learned doing research, and stay with our methods. It's not because we are arrogant, it's because what we advise works.

 

[Dragon]

Hey everyone! I am totally new to this forum. However, I’ve had my Russian tortoise Tywin for just over 6 months now. I bought him from a pet store and got caretaking instructions from them. I wanted to come here for some good advice!

This is a long and rambling post, and I’m sure all my questions have been answered elsewhere. If you could even share links to resources, I’d really appreciate it!

I have so many questions now.

Yesterday, I noticed that the shell on Tywin's belly was cracked! I went into panic mode and got him to a vet today. I’ve attached a photo of his chip. The vet said he was otherwise healthy, and gave me antibiotics, and shaved down the shell around the area.

I am pretty sure he got chipped from a “food dish” I bought off amazon, that’s also supposed to file his nails. I really messed up there - it had a sharp edge, and the vet told me his nails don’t need to be filed anyway.

I don’t want him to get hurt again through my incompetence, so I’m here to ask for help and to make sure I can keep tywin happy.

I have also attached a picture of his current enclosure set up (without the little water dish he has). It’s 4’x2’, and Tywin is about 6-7 inches long. I want to look more into building enclosures on this forum, but since I’m busy with work for the next few months, is this sufficient? Also, he has the lights (that the pet store sold me) that I now know are wrong for tortoises, after browsing on the forum. Are there places online I can buy better lights?

I use oat hay as his substrate, as the pet store told me that he’s a very messy eater. I keep the hay dry, and clean and replace it regularly. Is this something I should switchup?

I soak Tywin once a day, in the mornings. I also keep a very small water dish in his cage that he rarely uses. I do not check the humidity of his enclosure at all, or spray anything. Is this something that is necessary for Russian torts?

Tywin absolutely lovesssss radicchio, so I basically give it to him every day. Is it bad to let him eat the same thing every day, even if I change other greens up? Otherwise, the vet told me today that he needs more fiber in his diet (as she saw him do a massive, wet poop at the vet today lol).

Finally, he’s a very active and curious tortoise. Even the vet commented on it today! He does not stay still and was trying very hard to explore. Since building a Very massive enclosure in my apartment is not feasible right now, what can I do to make sure he has the space to explore?

Thank you so much for any advice you can give me! I really appreciate it. I look forward to learning more from this forum!

View attachment 304733View attachment 304734

I ran into the same problem you did, the reptile store i bought my sissy from also sold us a bunch of stuff we didnt need and gave us the wrong information, I havent gotten everything fixed up yet but she has a fairly good sized home until i can make her a bigger one.....and we will make her an outdoor habatat she can go outside during the day come summer. since i have house plants anyway i will be ordering some plants from the sight listed here and grow her some frish food thank goodness i only discovered one small crack on top of her shell and a slilghtly larger one on the side....that was a few days ago but i looked today and they appear to be all healed up thank goodness!! I dont remembering reading anything about your soaking tywn. The reptial store didnt tell me about that either.... we got a large plastic tub to put luke warm water in for her to soak in. let me know if yuo need a picture of it. others will correct me if im wrong ( im new here to) but i believe they need to be soaked everyday for an hour or so, it is also a nice bonding time for me and sissy. I set her soaking tub on my lap and we watch tv while she soaks and she likes her shell rubbed with a soft tooth brush. I think thats how i found the craks in her shell...the first time i soaked her the water was flitly!! oh and if you see some white stuff in her soaking water thats normal... i found that out the other day lol I took pictures of it and put it on here asking if this was normal...if you look at my messages you will see the picture of the white stuff in her soaking tub..... just figured id mention it so if you havent soaked yours yet and see this you wont be alarmed.... well id best be off to shower....I have lung therpy tomarrow and i suppose i should be squeeky clean as spike would say for it. lol I hate lung therpy lol i have a pinched nerve so my left arm and leg always aces during and for hours after therpy lol makes me a bit cranky.... lol keep comming here asking questions and reading!! im getting a notebook and writting everything i learn here down or print some things up to put in sissys folder ...... the more i learn the more i relize all my research before getting sissy was usless... i want to have the correct information in a book form here at home so i can look things up and reread things until i really learn what im doing....it along with sissy will go to my grandson when I pass on.... well i guess id best get going no more stalling lol

 

[Tom]

@KarenSoCal Thank you so much for the thoughtful response. Everything you posted was very helpful, and I'll be updating everything. I had a few follow-ups too though.

From the vet, I got chlorhexidine solution to apply to the wound every 3 days until it's healed. The vet was on the fence about oral antibiotics, and said if Tywin took it, it would be preventative. I opted to take it to be on the safe-side, but after your responses, I will not feed him the antibiotic. Yvonne was wondering about this too, so I wanted to post it.

I have no outdoor space, so I cannot build an outdoor enclosure. Assuming I update the lights in his indoor enclosure, is it good if I just put substrate and a cover in a plastic storage bin and took him outside like that? Or is it better if he just stays in his indoor enclosure?

As for his indoor enclosure, I am planning on buying a second of the one I have now and connecting it so that it's 2'x8'. I am not in the financial place to buy one of the ideal enclosures that seem to cost $700+. It is safe to say that I did not know what I was getting myself into when I got Tywin! Are there more cost effective options? I am going to explore the page on building enclosures to see if I can pull something together too.

Otherwise, that was it! There is so much conflicting information on feeding tortoises on the internet. For example, I read that arugula was too spicy for them, but now it seems like it's fine! I will be doing some experimenting to see what I can grow and what he will eat.

Thank you again! I really appreciate it.

You are on the right track now. You are not incompetent. I can appreciate the self-deprecation, but that is too strong of a word to describe your situation. No one is born knowing all this and you are doing your best to learn and make changes. Someone who is incompetent would not try to learn and do better, so that is not you.

For an adult Russian, you don't need a large expensive closed chamber. You can easily build a wonderful enclosure with two sheets of ply wood and some 2x4s. Use a 4x4 for the legs and you will be all set. You can prime and paint it with exterior paint and give it a week or two to dry and stop smelling of paint fumes before use.

There is a ton of conflicting info out there. Get your info here and here alone. You've gotten great advice from everyone responding to this thread so far.

Here is a simple breakdown of the heating and lighting needed:
There are four elements to heating and lighting:

1. Basking bulb. I use 65 watt incandescent floods from the hardware store. Some people will need bigger, or smaller wattage bulbs. Let your thermometer be your guide. I run them on a timer for about 12 hours and adjust the height to get the correct basking temp under them. I also like to use a flat rock of some sort directly under the bulb. You need to check the temp with a thermometer directly under the bulb and get it to around 95-100F (36-37C).
2. Ambient heat maintenance. I use ceramic heating elements or radiant heat panels set on thermostats to maintain ambient above 80 degrees day and night for tropical species. In most cases you'd only need day heat for a temperate species like Testudo or DT, as long as your house stays above 60F (15-16C) at night.
3. Ambient light. I use LEDs for this purpose. Something in the 5000-6500K color range will look the best. Most bulbs at the store are in the 2500K range and they look yellowish. Strip or screw-in LED bulb types are both fine.
4. UV. If you can get your tortoise outside for an hour 2 or 3 times a week, you won't need indoor UV. In colder climates, get one of the newer HO type fluorescent tubes. Which type will depend on mounting height. 5.0 bulbs make almost no UV. I like the 12% HO bulbs from Arcadia. You need a meter to check this: https://www.solarmeter.com/model65.html A good UV bulb only needs to run for 2-3 hours mid day. You need the basking bulb and the ambient lighting to be on at least 12 hours a day.