General Russian Tortoise questions

Gwan-Thwei

New Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2015
Messages
7
Hey all! I'm obviously new to the forum, but i figured i'd better make an account just in case i needed anything from experienced handlers.

I have a female russian tortoise who's shell is about six inches long (if that helps answer any questions). She's a unique character and i want to treat her the best i can, But since this is my first and only tortoise...well, i have questions.

1. Whenever i pick her up and she's not expecting it, she squeaks. It's not her grinding her beak, it sounds more like a fast exhale whistling through her nose. I've heard such noises can be a sign of something serious, but like i said i'm not sure if i should worry.

2. Because of how my room is set up, i usually let her wander around while i'm out working. About a month ago she found dry cat food on the carpet and started eating it. I googled if it was okay to let her keep doing it and found animal proteins can cause kidney failure (?) so i've had to stop. She seems to like the dry food though, so i got her some from the pet store - 'All Living Things Tortoise Diet'. I didn't notice until i got home that the picture of the tortoise is a Sulcata, not a Russian. She still eats the pellets, but she swallows them whole...is this safe?

3. I read somewhere that a full grown russian tortoise is anywhere from 8-10 inches long. Mine is only six, which is fine, only two of the plates on the back of her shell seem to be fused together. Should i worry about this?
 

russian/sulcata/tortoise

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2014
Messages
8,458
Location (City and/or State)
Northern California, bay area
welcome to the forums!
1. when she pulls her head into her shell she releases air, its perfectly normal.
2. do NOT ever let you tortoise roam around your room. your tortoise can easily become injured or eat some plastic or dust bunny. one pice of cat food woun hurt her.
3. thats not true i have never seen a 10 inch russian lol. the average russian is around 6 inches. most russians are wild caught and determining her age is impossible.
can you post some pictures of her enclosure and her shell the part you are worried about?
 

wellington

Well-Known Member
Moderator
10 Year Member!
Tortoise Club
Joined
Sep 6, 2011
Messages
49,661
Location (City and/or State)
Chicago, Illinois, USA
Hello,and Welcome:). Your tort finding the cat food on the floor is one reason we don't recommend them roaming the house. Too many things they can get into that could hurt them. Thankfully it was only cat food. Also, they need a proper enclosure with proper heat, humidity, uvb lighting, and water, that they can't get roaming a room/house on carpet or slippery floors. That the beginning of the russian section is a sticky of a list of food items, take a look and feed as big a variety as possible. As for the kibble you are feeding, I would soak it in some water. I wouldn't like the fact he's swallowing it. If you post a pic of him and his enclousre, we can help you to tweak him and his house.
 

Gwan-Thwei

New Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2015
Messages
7
Pictures of my Tortoise (her name is Shelby)
IMG_20140417_191359_0.jpg
^Detail of the two plates that are fused. You can see it on the right side.

IMG_20150122_202831_673.jpg IMG_20150122_202818_317.jpg
^This is her setup. She doesn't use her cage for much else other than sleeping, as it's too small for her to get any real exercise in it. Her substrate is similar to the paper bits seen in rodent enclosures. Down here in my room it's kind of cold, so it's important that she stays warm through the night. I have a Night Heat Infra-red Bulb to help.
The lamp is off to the side during the day so she can regulate how warm she needs to be herself. Don't worry about the cat - my tortoise isn't afraid of using territorial displays or biting him if she needs to warm up.

As for letting lot letting her roam, I'm going to have to disagree (for now anyway). She stays in my room away from being accidentally stepped on. The only thing she really has to worry about is cat food. I've blocked off any areas that she could get stuck or lost in, such as under my bed, and in replacement lined what spaces i can with warm blankets to keep residual heat in from her basking.


IMG_20150122_202818_317.jpg IMG_20150122_202831_673.jpg
 
Last edited by a moderator:

russian/sulcata/tortoise

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2014
Messages
8,458
Location (City and/or State)
Northern California, bay area
there are some major problems with this enclosure. 1. russian tortoises need humid solid substrate. lack of humidity in a tortoises environment will cause her shell to to deform. 2. the minimum cage requirement for a russian tortoise is 4ft by8ft, small cages will cause serious stress for your tortoise. these changes need to happen very soon. some good substates are coco coir, cypress mulch. orchard bark all these substrates are good when kept moist.
please read this entire care sheet. http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/russian-tortoise-care-sheet.80698/
 

russian/sulcata/tortoise

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2014
Messages
8,458
Location (City and/or State)
Northern California, bay area
russian tortoises need a basking spot close is 100 and a cool side temps of 80. please make these cages. my first russian was kept on shredded up paper and now her shell is extremely deformed and it will affect her for the rest of her life.
 

Gwan-Thwei

New Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2015
Messages
7
1. I soak her every other day to compensate for lack of humidity. Is this enough?
2. I only keep her in her cage to sleep, otherwise i don't keep her in there anymore. Do you know of a place where i can by large tanks like described above?

Also, i forgot to mention her shell was like that when i got her. She was kept in worse conditions than this by her last owner - 4'x10' enclosure, no heat lamp, no fresh food, sand and alfalfa hay, and grubby little first graders who couldn't keep their hands away. I know these conditions are far from ideal, but it'll have to do until i can get everything she needs.

EDIT: I use two different bulbe for day and night, respectively. The daytime bulbe is either a Zoo-Med or an Exoterra, about 75 watts. The nightime bulb is a National Geographic Night Heat Infra-Red Bulb at about 25 watts.
 

russian/sulcata/tortoise

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2014
Messages
8,458
Location (City and/or State)
Northern California, bay area
1. I soak her every other day to compensate for lack of humidity. Is this enough?
2. I only keep her in her cage to sleep, otherwise i don't keep her in there anymore. Do you know of a place where i can by large tanks like described above?

Also, i forgot to mention her shell was like that when i got her. She was kept in worse conditions than this by her last owner - 4'x10' enclosure, no heat lamp, no fresh food, sand and alfalfa hay, and grubby little first graders who couldn't keep their hands away. I know these conditions are far from ideal, but it'll have to do until i can get everything she needs.
she really need better substrate, normal outside dirt will even work better. please take my advise, your tortoise could become sick and possibly die. do you know the cage temps? most of us on the forum make the cages our self. do you have any old book selves for temporary bigger enclosure?
 

Gwan-Thwei

New Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2015
Messages
7
Look, i hate to sound like one of those jerks who comes on for questions only to tell everyone with answers that they’re wrong, but it’s probably going to come out that way anyway.
I signed up to ask about what was concerning me - the pellets, her shell, and her noises. I understand her cage and her substrate isn’t optimal according to your care sheet, I understand small cages will stress her, and i understand the dangers of letting her roam around the house unsupervised. But I wasn’t concerned about any of that. Does she need a larger enclosure? Of course, that’s why i don’t keep her in it all day. The substrate isn’t shredded copy paper or newspaper, it’s powder free, non-toxic paper substrate perfect for burrowing animals like rodents or tortoises that keeps the heat inside at night. Aside from the initial deformation caused by neglect from her previous owner, her shell is fine.

Let me give you a bit of backstory - When Shelby was bought by her previous owner, she was put in the conditions mentioned above - 4x10 inch enclosure, sand and alfalfa substrate, no fresh food, no heat lamp, and a class of rowdy first graders. They would do things like flip her on her back, bury her under the sand, try to force feed her, and pull her out of the substrate when she was trying to sleep. She didn’t get regular baths at all, twice a month if she was lucky, and all the noise made her skittish and jumpy. Not only did she not have fresh food, she was fed only dandelion greens. She had to go to the vet at least once a week. Since i watched her over the weekend and on school breaks, i could see the difference between a tense, jumpy Shelby fresh out of the classroom and a relaxed, comfortable Shelby that’s been at home for a few days.
Since she’s retired from being a class pet, she’s blossomed. She has a curious and stubborn personality, and she likes exploring and cuddling with my cat. I talk to her when i see her, i pet and play with her, and on cold nights i take her in bed with me so she can snooze under my heated blanket. Is it up to par with the care sheet? No. But she’s so much happier. In the four years that we have had her we have never had to take her to the vet. She does not get stressed in her cage because she’s never in it when she’s awake. She’s fine wandering around my room because it’s safe from large animals i don’t have and she won’t get stepped on. No one goes in my room but me.

Now, your enclosure might work for your tortoises - Most people keep them as a hobby, and they only take them out to clean or switch tanks. That’s why they need a large enclosure, because they’re usually never taken out of it. But Shelby isn’t just a hobby, she’s part of my family. When i call her name she twists around to look at me, and if i’m sitting on the floor she comes trucking over to snuggle with me. If she was just a hobby, I would have left her with her old owner instead of fighting for her as hard as i did. I know it doesn’t seem like the best environment, but if i was concerned about it i would ask about it instead of food pellets and squeaky noises.
 

leigti

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2013
Messages
7,026
Location (City and/or State)
southeast Washington
I have briefly scanned this post, so if I don't have the details right I'm sorry it is my fault. I'm in a hurry right now sorry. If you're looking for large tank get a stock tank, the kind they feed sheep or cattle or horses with. The substrate should definitely be coconut coir or cypress mulch or dirt without any pesticides or fertilizers. And it should be slightly damp. And therefore it should also be kept warm. I would suggest a Mercury vapor bulb for UVB and heat all in one. Power son 100 W would we good. I personally do not like food pellets of any kind. Feed her Broadleaf he greens, endive escarole spring mix, dandelions, turnip greens, radish tops, carrot tops, cactus. You get the idea. have a cuttlebone available at all times but supplement with TNT powder or calcium powder lightly sprinkled on her food also. I'm not sure what the squeaky noises are, so I will leave that up to somebody else to answer. as far as roaming around in your room, I have mixed feelings on that. I don't feel as strongly against it as some people do. I soak my Russian 2 to 3 times a week. my cats don't bother my tortoise either. But I never leave my dog unsupervised around her. people on the forum do care about your tortoise. And sometimes quite frankly were not as concerned about the feelings of the owners. However please stick around and take some of the advice offered. The care sheet is a great start. Avoid coil UVB bulbs because it cause I problems. i'm glad you got the tortoise out of that classroom, what a nightmare. Kids need to learn how to treat animals of all kinds. welcome to the forum. Please keep asking questions and researching. This is the best site and all the information you need is here. If your research other places too then you'll just get confused. Any of the books are outdated so don't even bother with them. I've had my Russian for 2 1/2 years now so I am talking from experience. It took me a while to get things right and I am still tweaking it. i'm times. Depending on where you live hopefully your tortoise can get outside for some quality sunshine when weather permits.
 

Yvonne G

Old Timer
TFO Admin
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 23, 2008
Messages
93,391
Location (City and/or State)
Clovis, CA
Hi, and welcome to the Forum!

Soak the pellets to soften them. Tortoises don't have teeth, so what they eat they swallow whole. A moist pellet will go down better.

There's nothing you can do about the fused scutes. It's not harming her and not causing any discomfort.

When you startle a tortoise they pull their head in. This forces the air out of the lungs and you hear a 'whoosh' sound. If you're hearing something different, maybe there's a food particle stuck in her nares. You can flush out the nose with sterile saline solution.
 

smarch

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2012
Messages
4,067
Location (City and/or State)
Massachusetts
In response to your initial post:
The squeaking when picking her up is just you surprising her so she tucks into her shell out of instinct to protect herself and to do that it quickly pushes air out of her lungs to make room for her head. My cousins turtles did it that's how I knew when my guy did it it was ok. If it starts happening when she's not sucking into her shell you should worry.

The info about animal proteins and kidney falure is about people who plop a thing of car food in to feed the tortoise everyday instead of greens, one kibble will be fine, but if you have the cat food in your room I suggest blocking it off the area it is (or putting it up out of her reach) in case she decides its yummy... because that wouldn't be ok, but one bit wont cause serious damage.
I'm not familiar with the all living things foods, and my guy refuses to eat any kind of pellet anyways. But are they ones you can soak and mush? I don't personally think i'd like it if Nank ate pellets whole, I'd constantly worry about choking, I recommend Mazuri tortoise diet in the future if the stuff you have doesn't soak to mush, many tortoises on here are crazy about the stuff... Nank not so much.
The average female Russian is 8-10 but I've known at least one person who had a 12-inch big girl. As for the fused parts of her shell, it may be my computer screen but I don't see them, but its normal for the occasional tortoise to have fused scutes from hatching, if its always been there and doesn't effect her don't worry too much.

In response to the stuff that followed about housing. I'm not going to be critical so don't worry: you've had her for 4 years without incident and she's alive and seems happy and healthy. If I understood correct you turn her light to outside her enclosure when she's out so she can bask as wanted? You said your light is zoomed or exoterra, but what type? A tortoise needs UVB rays to keep healthy bones and shell, you can get a Murcury Vapor Bulb that emits light and UVB (unless this is what you already have then you may ignore that), that needs to be replaced about yearly since UVB only comes out so long. The day time light could be 100watt if you're saying your room is cold, that way it'll emit more heat, also if the room is cold perhaps add a second heat light for when she roams to give her more options and you'd only need to run that during the day when she's out. That's not really needed but I mean then she'd have basking choices, useful especially if you happen to have a cool area of your room you could put it there to make up for it. How cool does your room get?
You sound willing to get her a bigger enclosure when you were asking where one gets larger tanks, honestly they don't make "tanks" that big, most people make their own, lay a bookcase without shelves on its back, build a closed wooden box of the wanted size, its all about customization too.
I do suggest something instead of the paper shredding's, mostly just because I see her in her food, paper could easily sneak into it and be eaten, I like using mulch, looks good smells good and they have nice traction sitting on top rather than paper that will sink under them. but that's up to you, i'm just telling you what I like i'm not telling you to switch if you don't want to its ultimately your decision.
Lastly I just have 2 concerns, when you say you take her in bed at night do you mean before you sleep or while you sleep? because the first one I don't see much danger, but the second, if you're asleep what if she moves her way toward the edge of the bed and almost falls or does fall? and I know I even smush my cat when he's in my bed so theres that too. The heat light should be enough even on cold nights to keep her warm (my Nank lives in the basement so I know that for a fact) once again please don't think i'm attacking you, I am really trying hard not to come off that way.
Lastly and this one I will not lower the importance, I see it as the one thing if anything you should make sure of. Which way does your room's door open? Into your room or out of it? If it opens into your room please please please listen to me on this one! make some sort of barrier around it when it opens so she cant get into the path of opening the door, there was a member a little while ago with a little sulcata who let the little one roam her room for a little and when she came back in he was by the door and his head went under the opening at the bottom of the door and was crushed and the tort passed away. Her head may not fit under, but you could still accidentally hurt her greatly from the door. Other than that one major concern I can't go and tell you not to let her roam, it sounds like you take enough into consideration.

I'm glad you took her from such conditions, the poor girl in such a little space, I'm all for classroom pets, but please oh please teachers, give them the proper care! they're a great learning experience when given proper care... 4 inches isn't enough to even turn around, glad she's in a better place!
 

mini_max

Well-Known Member
Joined
Nov 10, 2014
Messages
386
Location (City and/or State)
Alberta, Canada
Hi! Good on you for rescuing your girl. This is the best site! The overwhelming amount of info can seem frustrating when it doesn't match up with what you are doing or want to do. I've been there. But from experience, every issue, problem, question I've ever had with my russian tortoise, of which there have been many, has been solved by following the advice, more or less, of these folks.

Anyhow, from experience, my guy was kept pretty dry prior to me getting him, and in the first month of my care. Now he has moist earth, in which he burrows at night, and I cannot believe how great his skin and shell look....and I always soak him daily.

So, I was thinking, without changing anything, you could offer up a humid hide, either in her tank on in the room she roams in. Look it up on here....just a plastic container with a lid and an entrance cut in filled with moist coir, moss, dirt, or something. Keep it near a heat source so it stays a decent temp. That way she can go in there if she likes. Heck, she might take to sleeping there.....
 

Gwan-Thwei

New Member
Joined
Jan 22, 2015
Messages
7
I realize my last reply sounded a lot harsher than i meant it to. Apologies if I've upset anyone, i just wanted to be perfectly clear with my intentions.

I would suggest a Mercury vapor bulb for UVB and heat all in one.
perhaps add a second heat light for when she roams to give her more options
As for the kibble you are feeding, I would soak it in some water. I wouldn't like the fact she's swallowing it.
you could offer up a humid hide,
All excellent ideas. I knew she needed the UVB but i didn't know they had to be changed yearly. I'll definitely need a second heat lamp considering how cold it gets up here. She doesn't really eat the kibble so I'll just remove it. As for the hidebox, that sounds like something i should get on right away considering humidity and all.

Which way does your room's door open?
Funnily enough, i have one of those pocket doors that hides inside the wall when the door is open. I know what you mean about being careful though, at my old place she liked to sleep by the door and I'd have to carefully open it up and skinny through to move her.

when you say you take her in bed at night do you mean before you sleep or while you sleep?
I do keep her in bed the whole night, but she's usually on the inside closest to the wall. If ever she's not, i've got bars on the side she can't slip through.

If you all don't mind, i have a few more questions. I'd like to construct an outside enclosure for the summer, any recommendations? And i remembered she had these odd, flaky patches of skin last year - do tortoises even shed their skin? If they do, could i use a soft bristled brush to help ease it off?


Thank you all so much for helping. I know with that last reply i didn't sound too appreciative, but i do know you have more experience with torts than i do. If ever i have a concern, I'll come to you guys first.
 

leigti

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Nov 2, 2013
Messages
7,026
Location (City and/or State)
southeast Washington
Russians climb really well so you'll want to make a secure enclosure, they also dig. I would recommend putting hardware cloth underneath the enclosure with at least 6 inches or a foot of dirt on top of it. I built my outdoor enclosure with pressure-treated 2 x 12's and hardware cloth below and above. you may not need the hardware cloth above if you have a fenced yard and you bring your tortoise in at night. you can put a little lip over the top of it so she can't climb out. Check out the outdoor enclosure section and he will see many examples. You can buy broadleaf weed seed mix and planted in the enclosure to give her natural food. I also grow it indoors in the winter.
Yes tortoises do shed their skin. I would just put her in warm soaks and let it gently come off don't pull it off. I made the mistake at kind of picking and poking at a spot my tortoise had on the side of her head and she bit me :) it's the only time she has aggressively bitten me. Any other time it's because I was hand feeding her and my fingers got in the way. yes, a mercury vapor bold will be a very good purchase. Do you also have a temperature gun?they are extremely handy. For both indoor and outdoor enclosures.
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
63,270
Location (City and/or State)
Southern California
She's a unique character and i want to treat her the best i can...

The above posts are an attempt to help you accomplish the goal you stated above.

There are a variety of personalities here on this forum. Some people are really good at sugar coating those jagged little pills and others (like me) are not. We all want what is best for tortoises. That is something all of us here share. When new people come to the forum there is no way for us to know if they'd like their info in a more direct, no non-sense form, or if they would be better served by lots of coddling and niceties.

You've got some issues there and frankly I'm more concerned about the well being of your tortoise than your feelings. If I have to risk offending you to help your tortoise, then I'll take that chance. I don't want to make you mad or drive you away, but sometimes the direct approach is the best way to get someone to understand. We see all sorts of tortoise tragedies here. Many people out in the world make the same mistakes. When someone new joins our community here and we see them (you) making those same common mistakes we want to hurry up and prevent another tragedy. So forgive the young poster above. He means well and he's also steering you the right way.

Your original questions have already been answered, but you've got other problems that need to be solved too. If I go to the mechanic for an oil change, I would not be irritated with the mechanic for telling me I have a slow-leaking tire and a broken strut, even though I didn't ask him to find those problems. So please don't be irritated with us when we only have the welfare of your tortoise in mind.

1. Loose on the floor or sleeping in the bed is dangerous. You seem to think "it won't happen to me". It will eventually. We see example after example here. One member just accidentally killed her tortoise this way. She didn't think it would happen to her either. Your tortoise belongs in a properly sized, temperature regulated enclosure with the right substrate and amenities.
2. That substrate is not good for your tortoise. Not having substrate in your bed or on the floor is not good either.
3. I recommend against red bulbs. Tortoises have better vision than we do. If you can see it, they can see it and the red bulbs make thing look funny to them. It messes with their day/night cycles and it sometimes makes them eat inappropriate stuff. Ceramic heating elements work better.
4. Along those lines, russians do quite well with a drop in night temps, as long as they can get warm during the day. There are four temps for you to know and regulate. Warm side, cool side, basking area and over night low. Do you know your tortoise's four temps? You might not need night heat at all.

Please read that thread that was linked for you and this one too: http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/beginner-mistakes.45180/

Letting your tortoise roam loose on the floor, not having the right temps, lighting or diet, feeding the wrong foods and having too small an enclosure is not treating her the best you can. We would love to help you treat her the best you can, but you've got to be willing to listen to the people who have had more than one tortoise for a few years. We don't want to castigate you, we want to help your tortoise and you.
 

New Posts

Top