general questions about diet/ lighting

[IshKah]

Hello Everyone!

With the weather getting colder and colder each week I have been increasingly curious about heat/lighting in my little tort's home and I also have a question about food supplements. But before I get started here is some info about my tort:

Info
Name: Gunter
Species: Hermann's
Age: Approx 6 months (I've had him for 5 months)
Diet: Bok choy, endive, escarole, cilantro, occasionally carrots, mustard greens, dandelion greens, basil. All rotated frequently and bought fresh weekly from a certified organic farm.
Water: fresh dish daily, bathed daily
Substrate: Cyprus mulch. (Will probably be buying some coco coir to mix with the mulch...he doesn't like to burrow himself as much in mulch only)
Lighting: 1 100W MVB, 1 Repisun 10.0 UVB
Vet visit? Two months ago, general check-up and fecal test. Fecal came back clean, and the vet said he looked perfectly healthy. (the lab technicians were 'oooo-ing' and 'awww-ing' the entire time )

Picture!

Another!

Lighting: I bought an MVB to replace the heat-only bulb that I once had over the basking area, however I did not remove the UV-only bulb when I installed the MVB. First question: is it okay to use an MVB and UV-only bulb at the same time. Just want to make sure I'm not giving the little guy too much lighting.

Heating: I've noticed recently that he has not been spending a lot of time sleeping outside his hide. Recently a typical day for him is inch out of his hide and go wait under his basking lamp until I feed him. Then he usually goes right back to his hide to sleep. So he'll be awake from roughly 9a to noon-sometimes 1p. I realize he's a baby, and it's his first winter but that seems like a lot of sleeping to me, could this be a heat issue? I just took the temps and its about 81f (28c) on the cold side and 99f (37c) under the "sweet spot" on the warm side. In the morning it's about 75f on the cold side.

Supplements: Are there any that are generally good to use? I have been using one daily "T-Rex/Repashy Superfoods Tortoise supplement Salad Topper" that the pet-store gave me but I worry that perhaps this plus two UV lights = too much D3? Maybe I'm worrying too much but who knows?

General: I welcome any general advice/tips anyone can give because being an inexperienced tort owner can be surprisingly stressful!

Here is a picture I took earlier today of his enclosure. Is this layout okay? I've also been wondering recently if I should even have that plant in there or not. The picture doesn't show this but the plant's leaves are about 4 inches off the ground, so no way my little guy will be able to reach that any time soon ;D

 

[Maggie Cummings]

You sure gave all the necessary details, we appreciate that. Is the Reptisun bulb a coil bulb? You say it's a heat only, maybe you should get a CHE? I never understand the names of the bulbs and what they are used for. Why 2 bulbs? One MVB is good enough for daytime, then you need a heat only bulb for nights. I use a black light bulb for night time, they are 60 watts and get hot enough. I don't think your diet is good enough. It's obvious you are trying to feed him good, but he needs more lettuces. I'd add Spring Mix and mix the other greens in with it.

I would get TNT from Carolina Pet Supply and get rid of the T-rex stuff. Other than what I have suggested it looks like you are really trying to do right by him. Remember, he IS a baby and as such will sleep a lot. But I am concerned about the Reptisun bulb, if it's a compact coil bulb you need to stop using it immediately.

 

[IshKah]

Thanks for the reply!

Here is the reptisun bulb I use. hopefully that isn't the coil bulb you were thinking of. I guess I use two bulbs because it emulated daytime a bit better (poor natural lighting in my apartment :/ )

I will definitely look into that TNT stuff and keep my eyes peeled for some spring mix come next week's farmer's market!

 

[fbsmith3]

This is going to go badly, yes, it is a coil. There is a belief that the end opposite the base concentrates the UVB light to produce UVC ot too much UVB. There are many reptile people who have had their animals go blind from this type of light. Zoo med says they fixed it, most people do not want to take the chance. I'm now using mine as a plant light.


Good luck and God bless

 

[Tom]

I wouldn't risk using that compact florescent bulb either. The tube type florescent lights are not dangerous and do a great job of adding light to the enclosure.

I've never raised a Hermanni from a baby, but this activity level sounds normal for tortoise babies in general. And your temps sound good to me too. As an adult they don't need as much humidity and you can let night temps drop into the 60's, but I'd be keeping mine exactly like yours if I had one.

I use either Rep-Cal or Zoo-Med calcium powder twice a week and Herptivite once a week. Just a pinch is all you need. I don't think this at all critical. You could use more or less, D3 or not, or different brands and I don't think it will matter all that much either way.

I would add a real humid hide. Either in addition to, or instead of the half log.

 

[tyler0912]

I echo what has already been said!
Also he is a cute little fella(?).

 

[Watermelon]

Bok choy:
http://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/site/plants_19.asp?mode=main&catID=231
Endive:
http://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/site/plants_19.asp?mode=main&catID=112
Coriander/Cilantro:
http://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/site/plants_19.asp?mode=main&catID=551
Basil:
http://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/site/plants_19.asp?mode=main&catID=515
Dandelion:
http://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/site/plants_19.asp?mode=main&catID=5
Mustard greens: Is this kale? Brassica and high in oxalates?

I'm sorry but you aren't providing a nutritious diet. Your tort is very beautiful and very very cute but please give him better food!!!! doesn't matter if its organic most of this stuff really isn't any good. Especially not everyday food.... maybe once every 3 week food. Herbs are not suitable for every day food either!!

P.s It isn't a great idea to think I'll add some more lettuce to his diet.... lettuce is over 90% water for goodness sake. It isn't nutritious so please dont get some salad bags.... research some decent plants. I dont know what decent plants are where you live but I live in England I have identified lots of plants and I have never fed a salad bag or any lettuce thus far!!!!!!!!!!

P.s.s I know I'm not an expert I've only had my babies a few months but I have done hours and hours of research on plants, looking for them, identifying them all it takes is a little effort.

---

28C is too WARM for the cool end. The cool end needs to be around 22C.

P.s How big is the enclosure? As yours doesn't look very big, perhaps this is why you arent getting a big difference between the temps either end.

 

[Xero]

Hey, just a suggestion.. If you sign upto http://www.ShelledWarriors.co.uk/forum/ and post the same question, you will then have a wider range of opinions, as im sure most people agree.. the best part about forums for keeping pets is that you get a very big range of opinion rather than just 'This is what you do' .. Please don't feel forced to join, it's just a suggestion.

 

[LilyLewin]

Hello Everyone!

With the weather getting colder and colder each week I have been increasingly curious about heat/lighting in my little tort's home and I also have a question about food supplements. But before I get started here is some info about my tort:

Info
Name: Gunter
Species: Hermann's
Age: Approx 6 months (I've had him for 5 months)
Diet: Bok choy, endive, escarole, cilantro, occasionally carrots, mustard greens, dandelion greens, basil. All rotated frequently and bought fresh weekly from a certified organic farm.
Water: fresh dish daily, bathed daily
Substrate: Cyprus mulch. (Will probably be buying some coco coir to mix with the mulch...he doesn't like to burrow himself as much in mulch only)
Lighting: 1 100W MVB, 1 Repisun 10.0 UVB
Vet visit? Two months ago, general check-up and fecal test. Fecal came back clean, and the vet said he looked perfectly healthy. (the lab technicians were 'oooo-ing' and 'awww-ing' the entire time )

Picture!

Another!

Lighting: I bought an MVB to replace the heat-only bulb that I once had over the basking area, however I did not remove the UV-only bulb when I installed the MVB. First question: is it okay to use an MVB and UV-only bulb at the same time. Just want to make sure I'm not giving the little guy too much lighting.

Heating: I've noticed recently that he has not been spending a lot of time sleeping outside his hide. Recently a typical day for him is inch out of his hide and go wait under his basking lamp until I feed him. Then he usually goes right back to his hide to sleep. So he'll be awake from roughly 9a to noon-sometimes 1p. I realize he's a baby, and it's his first winter but that seems like a lot of sleeping to me, could this be a heat issue? I just took the temps and its about 81f (28c) on the cold side and 99f (37c) under the "sweet spot" on the warm side. In the morning it's about 75f on the cold side.

Supplements: Are there any that are generally good to use? I have been using one daily "T-Rex/Repashy Superfoods Tortoise supplement Salad Topper" that the pet-store gave me but I worry that perhaps this plus two UV lights = too much D3? Maybe I'm worrying too much but who knows?

General: I welcome any general advice/tips anyone can give because being an inexperienced tort owner can be surprisingly stressful!

Here is a picture I took earlier today of his enclosure. Is this layout okay? I've also been wondering recently if I should even have that plant in there or not. The picture doesn't show this but the plant's leaves are about 4 inches off the ground, so no way my little guy will be able to reach that any time soon ;D

Hi there!
I know I am new but I do have some experience in lots of the aspects that you have mentioned. It may differ somewhat to others, but I hope just the same it can be heard and listened to as much as anyone elses.

The lighting - you have got enough of the UVB with your MVB. This is their main purpose - if you are going for a strip then you need to reduce the UVB output. Its too much and not providing the tort with much of an escape from it. I would think, that a strip of some sorts would provide you with additional lighting for your enclosure. But the UVB MUST be low - as torty is already getting his UVB from the combined.
I would say to try a strip which can match the horizontal of your enclosure but go for either a 2% or at most - 5%. If the latter, then raise the strip higher up and do not use a reflector. The Repti Glo 2% are ideal for lighting purposes - the UV is low (which you want) and they provide UVA and full spectrum - which will help with your torts activity levels and vision. It will light up those darker areas of the enclosure.
I think this is a point that you really need to change. Just a tweak...nothing drastic but the %UVB of the strip/other bulb is TOO much alongside the MVB. The tort will literally be bombarded with UVB as soon as he rises. The lower percentage ones that I have mentioned - should provide more lighting - rather than UVB. This should be a good way to go.

Substrate - I would go with some soil in the enclosure - this must be a sterilised topsoil and not any type of manure or soil that has any fertiliser in it.

Diet - isnt the worst. But most lettuces have no nutritional benefit or value to the tortoise. They can be best used as 'mixers' which can be used with edible weeds. For fibre (which would provide the firmer poos you would look for) - maybe consider the Agrobes Pre Alpen Cobs -
Here is a link which shows you what they are, you simply moisten them with water, and they can be used to suppliment any weed diet you provide. They provide lots of weeds within them, and you can sprinkle on the meal.
http://www.reptilica.de/product_info.php/product/Agrobs-Pre-Alpin-Testudo-Herbs-for-all-tortoises
There may be US outlets that sell these.
The diet you suggest above might well make the poop a little on the slack/runny side - if this happens, perhaps try adding more fibre. This is where the Pre Alpen cobs come in, simply to add that variety in plants/weeds and help with the fibre content. They are NOT a complete diet food. So should not be used with nothing else.
Some of the foods you have mentioned, probably should only be used as "treats". Its not the worst diet, but edible weeds with some of the things you have listed are much better. Together with the cobs I mentioned above for extra good fibre.

Temps - You need to provide a good temperature gradient for the tortoise to thermoregulate appropriately.
An ambient temp of about 23/24 degrees. A basking spot of around 32/34 degrees and a cool darker sleeping end of about 22/23 degrees. Too warm all round and they wont be able to perform this function sucessfully. This is an important part of tort keeping. The tortoise will be restless, stressed if he cannot cool down after basking to his required temperature. If you provide a 30degree+ basking spot...and his cool end is only 27degrees - there is not much of cooling spot for him. He will still be too warm.
If he is spending too much time sleeping - this might mean that he is just too warm. The enclosure needs that cool end, and 27degrees is not cool enough in my opinion. The other reason he is retreating and not out and about is like I mentioned above - the lighting (the UVB) is full on and too much - the only retreat he has is to hide away.

I hope all this makes sense and helps.

 

[IshKah]

This is going to go badly, yes, it is a coil.

Oh no! Bulb removed and demoted to plant only duty.

28C is too WARM for the cool end. The cool end needs to be around 22C.

I just took another reading and the cool end is hovering around 23-24c now with the hot end peaking at 33c. The enclosure's measurements are roughly 17.5 inches by 30 inches, I have also moved the MVB slightly away from the cool end to (hopefully) create a larger gradient there.

you aren't providing a nutritious diet

Boo welp, time to find/grow some new food!

 

[tyler0912]

Bok choy:
http://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/site/plants_19.asp?mode=main&catID=231
Endive:
http://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/site/plants_19.asp?mode=main&catID=112
Coriander/Cilantro:
http://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/site/plants_19.asp?mode=main&catID=551
Basil:
http://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/site/plants_19.asp?mode=main&catID=515
Dandelion:
http://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/site/plants_19.asp?mode=main&catID=5
Mustard greens: Is this kale? Brassica and high in oxalates?

I'm sorry but you aren't providing a nutritious diet. Your tort is very beautiful and very very cute but please give him better food!!!! doesn't matter if its organic most of this stuff really isn't any good. Especially not everyday food.... maybe once every 3 week food. Herbs are not suitable for every day food either!!

P.s It isn't a great idea to think I'll add some more lettuce to his diet.... lettuce is over 90% water for goodness sake. It isn't nutritious so please dont get some salad bags.... research some decent plants. I dont know what decent plants are where you live but I live in England I have identified lots of plants and I have never fed a salad bag or any lettuce thus far!!!!!!!!!!

P.s.s I know I'm not an expert I've only had my babies a few months but I have done hours and hours of research on plants, looking for them, identifying them all it takes is a little effort.

---

28C is too WARM for the cool end. The cool end needs to be around 22C.

P.s How big is the enclosure? As yours doesn't look very big, perhaps this is why you arent getting a big difference between the temps either end.

---

Is this mean to sound...harsh it comes across as that...

 

[Jacqui]

Hey, just a suggestion.. If you sign upto www.ShelledWarriors.org/forum/ and post the same question, you will then have a wider range of opinions, as im sure most people agree.. the best part about forums for keeping pets is that you get a very big range of opinion rather than just 'This is what you do' .. Please don't feel forced to join, it's just a suggestion.

Hi! I see your a new person here, could you please go to the intro section and introduce yourself to us. Tell us a little about yourself and your tortoises. Thank you!

---

Hi there!
I know I am new but I do have some experience in lots of the aspects that you have mentioned. It may differ somewhat to others, but I hope just the same it can be heard and listened to as much as anyone elses.

Hi and welcome Lily (?).

Would you be kind enough to go to the intro section and tell us all a bit about yourself and your tortoises? Thank you and welcome!

 

[nnaaddiinnee]

Yeah I think looking for some weeds and other plants to feed your tort is a good step forward, the food you are feeding currently is not ideal for everyday. This site is very helpful for checking what is safe to feed and which are best avoided-
http://www.thetortoisetable.org.uk/site/plant_database_14.asp
But remember some torts don't take kindly to change so you may have to gradually introduce new food to his diet.
You can buy seeds or plants and grow them yourself too, although I could not recommend you a retailer for this as I am in the UK.

It is important to have a good temp gradient as mentioned above, I try to aim for a range of about 10 degrees. (e.g cool end- 20-22C, warm end-30-32, basking spot about 34C). I think your tort is likely to be spending time in his hide because it is too hot rather than too cold. If your enclosure is too small to maintain a suitable gradient then you are going to have to think about upgrading to something a little bigger.

The plant is a good addition, I like to provide a few different shady places for my tort.

You did the right thing removing the cfl, the mvb supplies plenty of UV and any more is too much.

 

[Watermelon]

It may of come across harsh perhaps yes seen as in 28C for a cool end and the diet really isn't great! Would you rather me say how fabulous it all is or would you rather me give some CONSTRUCTIVE advice like I have done.

I wrote what I wrote as the diet is pretty abysmal for an everyday diet.... do you not care about that?

Sorry pal but I ain't B.S'ing on here and so tort can live out rest of its life on a herb & lettuce and whatever else diet. I want the best for the tortoise just like Ishkar does.

Do you think I'm sat here at my laptop wanting to hurt people's feelings or actually give some real honest advice to help the owner out.

---

P.s that message was to Tyler

 

[ascott]

Hey Sophie, I would request that you ease up a bit on Tyler. I see that you have posted here a bit before and I personally enjoy every member here on the forum (each of us have something to bring to the table) and I have no issue with some being a bit more brass than others....However, for you to send a reply such as yours to our young forum member is not necessary.

Thank you very much for your input, as I said, IMHO I believe we all have something to offer to one another. Sometimes cereal goes down a bit easier with milk thank dry and harsh without.

 

[Maggie Cummings]

I was not suggesting that just lettuces were a complete diet. We use Spring Mix with other dark leafy greens, grass and weeds. Frankly I have been feeding lettuces along with other leaves and blossoms and dark leafy greens for a lot of years, and have raised many healthy tortoises. Sophie I am very glad you have done your research but don't come on with a few months of experience and tell those of us with years of experience that we have been doing wrong all these years. I am glad you feel you have good advice to offer, but you can be polite and respectful as you give that advice.
It's no big deal that you haven't used bagged salad in your months of experience. I go for months without using it also, but then I do use it and other healthy food for months at a time.

Xero: I think that it is very rude for you to come on as a newbie and suggest that the OP go and join Shelled Warriors. I for one don't care for Shelled Warriors or the attitude of most of it's members. I might suggest that if you think Shelled Warriors has so much better advice then we do, that you go and stay there and leave us to our crappy advice here.

I think the OP has a great little tortoise and certainly knows how to ask for advice and I hope he see's past this bit of rudeness and stays here to see what a great group we can be...

I am glad that newbies feel they can come on and offer good advice, but please be respectful to those of us already here, we don't need rudeness here, especially when another new member is asking for advice for his tortoise.

Moderator note: Maggie is perfectly within her rights in saying this. The first rule of the forum is: Do not post anything blatantly rude and or insulting.

 

[Jacqui]

Okay, let's all stop before this really begins. I totally agree that belonging to both sites is a good thing, because neither site is perfect. Both have a lot to offer and have different strengths and weaknesses. In the end, the only thing that matters should be the tortoise's well being... not which site gave the advise. So people both from here and our new members (otherwise known perhaps as guests from SW) let's put down our hackles and work TOGETHER for a change.

 

[ascott]

Hi Ishkah,

I agree, you have given great detailed info here

If it were me, I would use a UVB long tube light and a heat bulb, with the heat bulb being placed at one end (to help to give the hot end, middle ground, cool spot) also, I would utilize that MVB about 2-3 hours a day (alone) and then switch it off and turn on the heat bulb and a long UVB long tube light for the remainder of the day light hours, this will allow the little one to move in and out of both light/heat exposures as he needs. IMHO

Yeah, the diet is a tricky thing....we are always looking to enhance their intake. While some of the things you show to feed should be on a moderate basis, I believe that dandelion should be one that gets fed a little more than on a moderate basis. I also believe that there are great lettuce products that can be given (red leaf lettuce, romaine)....they do offer hydration and that is uber important for a hatchling/young tortoise as well as they do provide some other benefits to the tortoise. Also, you said a word that I enjoy "organic" yeah some others will laugh but that is alright I would suggest introducing Organic Spring Mix as well as Organic Herb Mix that can be used a little each day (especially since winter months are approaching and out door yummy weeds are dwindling) Once spring hits then get em stuffed with the preferred stuff (this will allow the winter month diet to be beneficial and not detrimental)

Substrate, I have found that good ole dirt from the yard mixed with coir works well (again, for my RF needs this works well)...however, so many folks have used a variety that they will swear by and therefore you have lots of opinions to dig through and tailor to your needs....

Enjoy doing searches here on this forum as well as give google a go....and remember that there are so many ways that are successful to keep your tortoise, it is you finding the ones that encourage your tortoise to thrive...also, a little tweaking goes a long way....

btw, your little tort is adorable...

 

[Watermelon]

Excuse me when did I ever mention join shelled warriors????? I do not recall I did.

You are darn rude yourself:
"I might suggest that if you think Shelled Warriors has so much better advice then we do, that you go and stay there and leave us to our crappy advice here."

YET AGAIN DID I EVER MENTION SHELLED WARRIORS MAGGIE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



People's advice on here.... about the lighting I didn't comment on it as I do not know much on lighting so I'm not gunna give out advice, other people have.... I do not consider my advice THE ONLY ADVICE. However I don't see comments such as your temps are fine etc.... when 28C for a cool end could be lower.


I do not think my original post was rude, my priority is the tortoise not to come across arsy. I think my second post perhaps was as I was concerned for the tortoise, I did not realise Tyler was 13 years old.

---

Maggie perhaps you should read back... or do you think I created Xero's account myself? LOL

 

[Jacqui]

Sophie and the rest of you, once more I am letting you know that you are going OFF the topic and this behavior is not going to help this person or their tortoise. You all say you want to help the tortoise, so let's each of you prove it be stopping this little bickering your all doing. Everybody show your maturity and stay on topic and please do so constructively and politely. Show respect for yourselves, by showing it to others. Thank you!