Freedom fighting tortoise!

[Jocy]

Hello This is only my second post on here and first in over a year so I hope this is in the right place. Please correct me if I'm wrong!

I wanted to share an issue I have with my Hermann tortoise and wondered if anyone has had a similar experience or could offer any advice.

My tortoise Tilly is around 10 and the size of the palm of my hand. In terms of growth he's done amazingly (Tilly is a he by the way, long story ) and has a lovely smooth shell. In the summer he lives in a large run outside that has a hutch inside it too with hay, so that he has shelter at night. The rest of the year he lives in a tortoise table in my room. We don't hibernate him because of a couple of health issues he had in the past and advice from the vet. The tortoise table is 5ft by 2ft and has a UV light one end and a sheltered area the other end which is again full of hay as he loves to burrow sometimes. The substrate is a non-toxic, all nature pellet designed for tortoises and he always has access to his shallow dish of drinking water. His diet is weeds as much as possible, but dark leafy veg and lettuce when weeds are sparse. He's unbelievably sociable and will always follow people when there is one he can follow. If you sit on the floor he climbs all over you and nestles into creases in your knees if you sit with your legs crossed. He also loves to follow either me or my cats up and down the garden, and has even chased my cat up a tree a few times!

I wanted to give this background information as I thought it may provide an answer to his strange/slightly irritating behaviour...

Basically, Tilly is constantly trying to escape. He scrapes away at the walls of the table for hours on end and paces up and down. When I'm in my room I take Tilly out of the table and let him wander around. After a few minutes of wandering he will just go to a corner or into a shoe and either try to scrape/climb out of that too, or just go to sleep. So at this point, when he has seemingly had enough of his walk, I will put him back in the table. And then he will try to escape again. His UV light is on a timer and only when it's dark when the light has gone off in the evening does he calm down and rest.

I'm really at a loss of what to do because I'm trying my best to provide a nice environment for him but nothing seems good enough and I don't want him to be stressed/upset where he is.

I'm going to work on making the tortoise table more stimulating for him (I'm planning on planting some dandelion plants in little pots and letting them grow in his enclosure, and possibly some pansies too in the Spring) and I also want to get some climbing rocks. However what worries me about the rocks is him potentially tipping himself upside down.

Sorry about the length of this post, but I am just feeling quite confused and frustrated and wondered if anyone could relate/help me.

Thanks so much for reading

Jocy

 

[Tom]

I see a few things.

1. 5x2' is much too small for a tortoise of that size to live in all winter long. I recommend no smaller than 4x8'. This will also give you lots of room for tortoise "furniture" like logs, rocks, and potted plants. These things will stimulate his mind and occupy his time and they tend to reduce the crazed escape attempts.
2. That sort of substrate is a relic of the past and its not so great for them in many ways. Try offering a more natural substrate that he can dig into and burrow around in. Your substrate also needs to be kept a little damp for some moderate humidity. Not wet. Just slightly damp. You can't dampen pellets or hay. I prefer orchid bark for older Testudo sp., but cypress mulch, coco coir or even plain dirt from the yard can work too.
3. Letting him run loose in your room is a mistake that is likely to lead to disaster. Keep him in tortoise enclosures that are made safe for him both indoors and out.
4. What sort of UV bulb are you using? The coil type cfl bulbs can burn their eyes. He might be trying to get away from that.
5. It is normal for them to be antsy when moving from a large outdoor enclosure to a small indoor one. In time he will settle in, but yours need to be much larger.

I'll bet you that dealing with one or more of these things will solve your problem, or at least reduce it.

 

[Tyanna]

I see a few things.

1. 5x2' is much too small for a tortoise of that size to live in all winter long. I recommend no smaller than 4x8'. This will also give you lots of room for tortoise "furniture" like logs, rocks, and potted plants. These things will stimulate his mind and occupy his time and they tend to reduce the crazed escape attempts.
2. That sort of substrate is a relic of the past and its not so great for them in many ways. Try offering a more natural substrate that he can dig into and burrow around in. Your substrate also needs to be kept a little damp for some moderate humidity. Not wet. Just slightly damp. You can't dampen pellets or hay. I prefer orchid bark for older Testudo sp., but cypress mulch, coco coir or even plain dirt from the yard can work too.
3. Letting him run loose in your room is a mistake that is likely to lead to disaster. Keep him in tortoise enclosures that are made safe for him both indoors and out.
4. What sort of UV bulb are you using? The coil type cfl bulbs can burn their eyes. He might be trying to get away from that.
5. It is normal for them to be antsy when moving from a large outdoor enclosure to a small indoor one. In time he will settle in, but yours need to be much larger.

I'll bet you that dealing with one or more of these things will solve your problem, or at least reduce it.

Great points, Tom. Could it also be possible he's trying to escape from heat, if temps are too high? Since he calms down once lights are off?

 

[Tom]

Great points, Tom. Could it also be possible he's trying to escape from heat, if temps are too high? Since he calms down once lights are off?

Yes. Absolutely could be.

 

[Jocy]

I see a few things.

1. 5x2' is much too small for a tortoise of that size to live in all winter long. I recommend no smaller than 4x8'. This will also give you lots of room for tortoise "furniture" like logs, rocks, and potted plants. These things will stimulate his mind and occupy his time and they tend to reduce the crazed escape attempts.
2. That sort of substrate is a relic of the past and its not so great for them in many ways. Try offering a more natural substrate that he can dig into and burrow around in. Your substrate also needs to be kept a little damp for some moderate humidity. Not wet. Just slightly damp. You can't dampen pellets or hay. I prefer orchid bark for older Testudo sp., but cypress mulch, coco coir or even plain dirt from the yard can work too.
3. Letting him run loose in your room is a mistake that is likely to lead to disaster. Keep him in tortoise enclosures that are made safe for him both indoors and out.
4. What sort of UV bulb are you using? The coil type cfl bulbs can burn their eyes. He might be trying to get away from that.
5. It is normal for them to be antsy when moving from a large outdoor enclosure to a small indoor one. In time he will settle in, but yours need to be much larger.

I'll bet you that dealing with one or more of these things will solve your problem, or at least reduce it.

Thankyou Tom and Tyanna for your feedback. To address your points Tom -

1. Table size - I have been buying bigger enclosures over the years as Tilly was grown, and was advised elsewhere that this table was the appropriate size for him now. However I don't disagree that a larger one would be better and this is something I am definitely aiming for. I hope to be moving in the not too distant future so a priority for me will be having a larger table.
2. Substrate - We used to use part soil and part sand but moved to the pellets because we were told they were more hygienic because of their absorption. Also as Tilly likes to kick around, lots of substrate was ending up in her water and I was worried about her drinking soil/sand, whereas these pellets are edible. However as he does like to bury himself and dig about I'll look into incorporating a deeper substrate into the table.
3. My room is safe for Tilly to wander around in. I have strived to ensure this and never leave him unattended in the room. As I mentioned, he likes to follow me around so I would never just leave him to his own devices. After 10 years I've never done this and would not be starting now!
4. The light that I use is (to quote the site) a "self-ballasted mercury vapor lamp which emits UVA, UVB and heat". This was recommended to us by the vets and Tilly has never been exposed to a coil lamp. We also measure how high up it hangs from to ensure that the temperature is correct.

Thankyou very much again for your advice. I will address some of the points and cross my fingers Tilly calms down!

 

[Tyanna]

I would take Tom's advice and use any of the substrates he mentioned. Drinking "soil" water would be "okay".. it's always going to be messy, you just need to change it once or twice a day. DO NOT use sand.

What are your temps while the lights are on?

 

[Jocy]

I would take Tom's advice and use any of the substrates he mentioned. Drinking "soil" water would be "okay".. it's always going to be messy, you just need to change it once or twice a day. DO NOT use sand.

What are your temps while the lights are on?

Whilst the light is on we have a ground temperature underneath of 32 degrees which is what is recommended for Hermann's tortoises to bask beneath. The enclosure cools as you move away from the lamp. I have never heard not to use sand before, as the usual environment they live in is sandy and soily. I have spent a lot of time on other forums and have never come across anyone saying sand is not appropriate half and half with soil for Hermann's.

 

[Tyanna]

Whilst the light is on we have a ground temperature underneath of 32 degrees which is what is recommended for Hermann's tortoises to bask beneath. The enclosure cools as you move away from the lamp. I have never heard not to use sand before, as the usual environment they live in is sandy and soily. I have spent a lot of time on other forums and have never come across anyone saying sand is not appropriate half and half with soil for Hermann's.

Personally, I would bump up the basking temps a little bit. Also, you will notice here on the forum, that many don't recommend sand. It can cause impaction if ingested and it really irritates their eyes. More natural substrate would be orchid bark, plain soil, coco coir, cypress mulch, etc. like Tom has suggested.

 

[Tyanna]

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/soil-playsand-substrate.47344/#post-455634

Someone here posted some great information about using sand and the disadvantages of it.

 

[stinax182]

The more you let him out of his enclosure, the more he's not going to be happy with it. The grass is always greener on the other side especially when you've been there already! It's like always picking up a baby, then they can't sit down or walk!

 

[Jocy]

http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/soil-playsand-substrate.47344/#post-455634

Someone here posted some great information about using sand and the disadvantages of it.

Interesting, thankyou for the link. I will do some more research and make my decision

 

[Tom]

Thankyou Tom and Tyanna for your feedback. To address your points Tom -

1. Table size - I have been buying bigger enclosures over the years as Tilly was grown, and was advised elsewhere that this table was the appropriate size for him now. However I don't disagree that a larger one would be better and this is something I am definitely aiming for. I hope to be moving in the not too distant future so a priority for me will be having a larger table.
2. Substrate - We used to use part soil and part sand but moved to the pellets because we were told they were more hygienic because of their absorption. Also as Tilly likes to kick around, lots of substrate was ending up in her water and I was worried about her drinking soil/sand, whereas these pellets are edible. However as he does like to bury himself and dig about I'll look into incorporating a deeper substrate into the table.
3. My room is safe for Tilly to wander around in. I have strived to ensure this and never leave him unattended in the room. As I mentioned, he likes to follow me around so I would never just leave him to his own devices. After 10 years I've never done this and would not be starting now!
4. The light that I use is (to quote the site) a "self-ballasted mercury vapor lamp which emits UVA, UVB and heat". This was recommended to us by the vets and Tilly has never been exposed to a coil lamp. We also measure how high up it hangs from to ensure that the temperature is correct.

Thankyou very much again for your advice. I will address some of the points and cross my fingers Tilly calms down!

1. Go big!!! You and your tortoise will both be happy with the outcome.
2. "Absorbent" is the problem. Dry absorbent substrate makes for unnaturally low humidity. This is not the cause of your restlessness, but its still not good for your tortoise. Sand has been used and recommended for eons. While they may encounter it in the wild, our captive enclosures are not the wild, and it causes problems. Lots of them. We didn't know this way back when, but we know it now. I have many friends who are vets and I've seen countless cases of impaction and eye issues due to sand. Not worth the risk to me. Never seen an eye issue or impaction case with orchid bark in 30+ years of using it for all sorts of reptiles, including tortoises.
3. Same thing as sand. Ever seen pic of a tortoises shell being surgically cut open with a saw to remove some foreign ingested object? I have. Ever seen xrays of broken tortoise legs from being stepped on or hit with a door? I have. We just had a thread here a few weeks ago of a member who was letting her tortoise roam around her room and accidentally killed it. Everyone who has one of these disasters thought, "It won't happen to me.", before it happened to them.
4. Those are great bulbs and it sounds like you are using it perfectly. You commented about the vet here. Be aware that most vets are clueless about tortoises and many of them offer fatal advice. If you found a good one that actually has real tortoise experience, that is fantastic. They are just few and far between unfortunately. Many members here have had tortoises die because of the actions of these vets who are inexperienced with tortoises reading out of some handbook in the back room. There is no semester in "Tortoise Care and Medicine" in vet school. Just want you to be aware so you can avoid yet one more common disaster.

Good luck with your tortoise.