For Those Who Have a Young Sulcata...

[Tom]

In addition to my above questions, any other suggestions or critiques are welcomed.

Okay… you asked for it…

Kidding. Just kidding…

If the room stays 80 or above then you don't need night heat. Just remember to have a plan for fall.

The basking bulb only needs to be on for about 12 hours a day. I like it to come on just after sunrise and go off just before sunset this time of year. In winter I set the timer for about 12-13 hours of "day" light.

Using the lid and cutting out a hole for the light will definitely help keep it more humid. Just be careful to watch all the temperatures, and don't let the heat lamp get too close to the plastic lid.

He might be staying over on the other side to avoid the red area. Your new bulb will answer this question for us.

The food you are offering all sounds great. I would not feed any fruit or fruit tree leaves, and I don't think lilac or lavender are okay to feed.

It is normal for them to take cover during the mid day heat. This might also help them avoid the strongest UV rays of the day too. No one is really sure if its one or the other, or both, or both plus some other factor…

He also gets some supervised floor time in the evenings so he gets plenty of exercise.

The above quote is a very dangerous practice and those of us that have been doing this for a while strongly recommend against it. Most people get defensive and argue, but you don't seem like that type of person. Everyone thinks it is safe and that they are being super careful, right up until the day when they realize they were wrong. We argue, fuss and fight over this all the time, but we all just want to see all the little babies thrive and grow up. Some people just have to learn this lesson the hard way, but I try anyway.

Don't let your tortoise run loose in the house or outside. Design and build proper and safe enclosures both indoors and out, and have your tortoise get his exercise where he will be contained and safe.

While we are broaching this subject and trying to prevent disasters, it is worth mentioning that dogs and tortoises need to be kept separate. If you have a dog, never let it have access to your tortoise. The kindest, nicest, most mild-mannered, loving family pet will eventually chew on a tortoise. Its just what dogs do.

Hope these things help!

 

[Izzy's mom]

Hope these things help! [/QUOTE]

They most definitely do! I can't tell you how much I appreciate your time and expertise.

I surely won't get defensive when someone is taking time out of their day to help me. My husband mentioned he'd like to build Izzy an obstacle course with tunnels and ramps, etc. instead of just letting him down on the floor to interact with him, so I guess he's got a project for the weekend.

I have 2 great danes who we have trained to "leave it, that's mine" now they are very obediant and smart dogs BUT I would never trust them fully. We actually had a scare on Izzy's fourth day at home. After traveling UPS and getting stuck in Kentucky at 42 degrees, Izzy had settled in and on day three, got to enjoy the outside enclosure. Everything was fine, the pups didn't even notice Izzy but we had our lounge chairs right beside the pen so we could stare at him in awe. The next day, after a few minutes watching we had some yard things to take care of, and Izzy was secured. About an hour later, we were sitting on the north side of the house and taking a break, where Izzy's pen was out of sight. Leeloo (1 year old dane puppy) trotted up to me and proceeded to look me in the eye, open her mouth, and spit out Izzy. After a combination of a panicked examination of Izzy while scolding "the bad, bad dog" we proceeded to add a chicken wire roof to Izzy's pen. We were so fortunate that Izzy wasn't hurt or traumatized (silly thing poked his head out as soon as i picked him up and looked around like well that was quite a ride, Leeloo was just curious and like a toddler everything goes right in her mouth. We had screwed up in several ways, we hadn't intoducec Izzy to the dogs, we neglected to have a secured roof, and we failed to supervise Izzy's outside time. We made our introductions and then created a set of rules for Izzy's time outside. Anyway after a long story, I completely get where you're coming from and you're absolutely correct my dogs wouldn't hurt him on purpose but curiosity, jealousy, or even a simple misstep could be disasterous for Izzy especially given their size. So I couldn't agree with you more.

I'll change out the red bulb tomorrow morning and get the lid on. I'll let you know whether avoiding the warm side is the red light or just not wanting to be that warm.

One more question, just out of curiousity; why do hatchlings need their outside time limited? It seems like more natural sunlighf and fresh air would be ideal so I'm curious about that.

I feel like I already learned a lot just from this brief conversation, I'm really looking forward to learning so much more. Thanks Tom!

 

[Tom]

One more question, just out of curiousity; why do hatchlings need their outside time limited? It seems like more natural sunlighf and fresh air would be ideal so I'm curious about that.

I feel like I already learned a lot just from this brief conversation, I'm really looking forward to learning so much more. Thanks Tom!

I don't have a scientific explanation for why the great outdoors doesn't suit them as well, but I've done side-by-side experiments repeatedly, and they just don't do as well outside all day when they are little. It must be the stability, or possibly the lack of extremes indoors. In one experiment I took 12 clutch mates that all hatched together. I randomly selected the 2 groups of six out of the 24 babies that hatched in this clutch. All slept indoors in identical tanks and all were soaked daily. 6 of them spent most of their time indoors in a closed chamber that was warm and 80+% humidity, with daily 1 hour excursions to the great outdoors. The other six went outside from 8-10 am until 6-8 pm every day into a large well planted enclosure with damp dirt/soil under them and frequent sprinkling from the hose to keep things damp and humid. They were all fed the same foods from the same food mixing bucket in the same amounts. However the outside tortoises could also graze at will on all the plants growing in their enclosure and they frequently did, after their food was all eaten. In theory, the outside tortoise should have grown faster due to the extra food available to them. After three months the inside ones were literally two and a half to three times larger (300-380 grams compared to 80-120 grams), and the outdoor ones were showing some pyramiding in addition to much slower growth. Both groups were very active, showed good appetite and seemed healthy in every way.

I've gotten the same results in similar experiments and seen the same results with other people's tortoises around the country and around the world, even in humid tropical countries like the Philippines and South East Asia. They just do better inside in a proper enclosure.

Concerning the dogs, you should know a few things:
1. They absolutely will hurt the tortoise on purpose. Again, its just what dogs do.
2. Chicken wire won't stop a dog. Its better than nothing, but they can get right through it anytime they want. Welded wire or hardware cloth is much more effective.
3. As an experienced dog trainer, I think "introducing" the dogs to the tortoise is a mistake. From day one I treat the tortoise like its a rattlesnake and keep the dogs well away from it, and teach them to avoid it. If I have a prey driven dog that shows interest in the tortoises, I will run my own private little "snake-breaking" clinic on them with an electric collar and teach them that tortoises have a painful and shocking "bite" and should be avoided at all costs.
4. I LOVE Danes. They are my favorite pet breed. I recommend them to people who want a nice house pet, all the time. I'm in the process of acquiring my seventh pup. I like all the colors, but I'm partial to the mantles. Did you see the Mel Gibson movie "The Patriot"? That was my mantle, Jake. He lived to be 14 years and 11 months old. How about Will Smith's "7 Pounds"? That was Jack and Bobby. If you look closely, you can see that there were two different dogs used in that movie to play one.

Please keep all your questions coming. We are all here to talk torts, and your questions fuel the conversation.

 

[crifferdoodle]

So, when Sulcatas are around 1-2 do they still need to stay in their closure 98% of the time or can they be in the floor and hang out (we have a large storage container with sides that he couldnt get out of?

 

[Tom]

So, when Sulcatas are around 1-2 do they still need to stay in their closure 98% of the time or can they be in the floor and hang out (we have a large storage container with sides that he couldnt get out of?

At one year old, if things go well, they will be 800-1000 grams. Way too big for any store bought storage container. By two years old they can easily reach 10 pounds.

Loose on the floor is not good at any age. In an enclosure that is designed for them and made safe is fine for them at any time.

 

[crifferdoodle]

At one year old, if things go well, they will be 800-1000 grams. Way too big for any store bought storage container. By two years old they can easily reach 10 pounds.

Loose on the floor is not good at any age. In an enclosure that is designed for them and made safe is fine for them at any time.

Awesome we will probably make a large enclosure for him, then for when he gets big to transfer him. But the air will be okay for him at that age? Basically what age can they come out of the constant heat in the tank (lets say for 1-2 hours)?

Also (sorry about all the questions...got to get informed!!): Where he will be staying is very warm. We've been testing the temperatures inside the tank and it's already 90 degrees F with the same humidity and that's without lights and heat lamps. What should we do if the tank is already that hot and we don't have the ceramic heat lamps above it yet?

 

[Tom]

Awesome we will probably make a large enclosure for him, then for when he gets big to transfer him. But the air will be okay for him at that age? Basically what age can they come out of the constant heat in the tank (lets say for 1-2 hours)?

Also (sorry about all the questions...got to get informed!!): Where he will be staying is very warm. We've been testing the temperatures inside the tank and it's already 90 degrees F with the same humidity and that's without lights and heat lamps. What should we do if the tank is already that hot and we don't have the ceramic heat lamps above it yet?

If its sunny and dry, small ones can go outside when its 65 degrees because they can warm up in the sun. As adults they can tolerate it even colder. You have to keep an eye on them and watch those temps, but they don't drop dead if the temperature is less than 80. They can survive a lot, but we strive to offer ideal conditions in their main living quarters.

My general rule of thumb is an hour of outside time per inch of tortoise.

Where is it 90 degrees in your tank? There are four temps to know and monitor. Warm side 80-95, cool side 80, basking area 95-100 and over night low 80. You will use a CHE to maintain ambient temps at that no-lower-than 80 mark. A thermostat will shut your CHE on and off as needed. If the room is warm and the lights get the temp up to 90, then your thermostat will keep the CHE off. At night when the lights are off and the temp drops, the thermostat will kick the CHE on when the temperature drops below 80. If room temp reaches 90 degrees you will only need a small wattage (35-50 watt) flood bulb for basking and maybe a nice 6500K florescent tube for more light. If your tortoise gets at least an hour or two of sunshine each week, then you really won't need and indoor UV bulbs either.

 

[Tom]

But the air will be okay for him at that age? Basically what age can they come out of the constant heat in the tank (lets say for 1-2 hours)?

Your tortoise will always need the correct temperatures, but they can come out of the tank anytime you want. If its snowing outside, you'll need to make sure they don't get cold when out of their tank. Like during soaks, for example.

If its a warm spring or summer day, they can be outside getting sunshine.

 

[crifferdoodle]

If its sunny and dry, small ones can go outside when its 65 degrees because they can warm up in the sun. As adults they can tolerate it even colder. You have to keep an eye on them and watch those temps, but they don't drop dead if the temperature is less than 80. They can survive a lot, but we strive to offer ideal conditions in their main living quarters.

My general rule of thumb is an hour of outside time per inch of tortoise.

Where is it 90 degrees in your tank? There are four temps to know and monitor. Warm side 80-95, cool side 80, basking area 95-100 and over night low 80. You will use a CHE to maintain ambient temps at that no-lower-than 80 mark. A thermostat will shut your CHE on and off as needed. If the room is warm and the lights get the temp up to 90, then your thermostat will keep the CHE off. At night when the lights are off and the temp drops, the thermostat will kick the CHE on when the temperature drops below 80. If room temp reaches 90 degrees you will only need a small wattage (35-50 watt) flood bulb for basking and maybe a nice 6500K florescent tube for more light. If your tortoise gets at least an hour or two of sunshine each week, then you really won't need and indoor UV bulbs either.

Awesome. Thank you! It's VERY hot outside right now in the Mid-South, so I think a little bit of sun time would be nice when we get him.

We just have one thermometer at the moment, IDK where it is in the tank because Chris was setting everything up (he knows more than I do, I'm still learning). I'm about to get a point and shoot thermometer. His tank is in one of our really big walk in closets at the house. It doesn't have air conditioning in it, so it's just naturally hot in there. I'll send this info to Chris! Thank you!

 

[Mende]

Hello all, I kept leopard tortoises improperly 25 years ago as a child inndoors in Wyoming. I've recently started again here in San Diego. I have read many of the posts, especially the ones put out by Tom. I acquired a SA Leopard Tort earlyier this month and have been refining its enclosure based on all your advice.

Attached is a picture of his current set up. I have plans to move him out of the living room and into my guest room where I will close off the AC vent. The temperatures are controlled by a thermostat and the lights are 14 hours a day based on summer. He has a humid hide which he is placed in at night if he hasn't made in there on his own. I plan on placing the enclosure into a mini green house and elevating the UVB source and CHE (thermostat controlled to 80 degrees F) to better control humidity and heat.

I was messing around with the humidifier but have shut it off and continue to mist the enclosure manually a couple times a day.

I looking for some feed back to shoot holes in my plan and/or confirm it

Thanks Guys

 

[kalei01]

I need advise too my enclosure has between 80-90% humidity where sometimes gets higher and the plexiglass gains condensation all over it at night temps during day is upper 80-to lower 90s under lamp is 106 and cool side is upper 70s not sure on night time I have a Che with a temp controller set at 82 degrees and full spectrum light during day enclosure is 3ft by 8ft and have dry side wet side and a damp side I put him outside daily and watch him outside so he don't get lost lights are on timer from 8am till 9 pm

Ps I hope YvonneG likes my punctuation

 

[ValerieAnn]

Over and over I type up and answer diet questions and try to get people feeding the right stuff, but I find that the "norm" is grocery store food. Grocery store food is expensive, a hassle to obtain, and very low on the list of what is best for sulcatas.

These tortoises are GRASS eaters. From the moment they hatch, until the day they die, grass should be a large part of their diet. Spring mix, romaine, kale and other greens are okay as a small part of a varied diet, but should not be the bulk of the diet. If someone must feed grocery store foods, the pile should be sprinkled with grass clippings or "Salad Style". For those who like the convenience of pre-packaged, easy to handle stuff, "Salad Style" is basically finely blended up grass hay that can be sprinkled over any other food to add bulk and fiber. I got my "Salad Style" from Tyler at tortoisesupply.com.

For those that have a lawn, or access to one: Get a tub, get some scissors, get down on your knees, and go to work! It is so EASY to cut a few handfuls of fresh, green, tender, young grass, and dramatically improve your baby sulcatas diet. Any kind of grass will work. Finely chop it for little tortoises and sprinkle it all over the other food, or feed it by itself in a pile. Do be careful about lawn chemicals and pesticides. If you have a gardener, or its not your lawn, use extreme caution. Live in a condo or apartment complex? Don't do it. Not worth the risk, no matter what they tell you. Just grow your own grass in pots on your patio or window sills. Friends, family and neighbors might be able to help you out here.

For those who still just love the grocery store: Most stores are now selling little plastic pots of live, freshly sprouted, organic wheat grass. You can find it at many pet stores too. This is a great way to add grass to the diet of a young sulcata. Get your scissors, hold the pot over the food pile and chop away. Water it and keep the pot in a window sill, and in a few days, you'll have more. You might need several pots as your baby grows, or you can buy seed from one of our site sponsors (Thank you Carolina Pet Supply) and sprout even bigger trays of it yourself.

Some of you may find that your "grass eating" tortoise wants nothing to do with eating grass. This should surprise no one, since most breeders and most keepers never even attempt to feed actual grass to their grass eating tortoise babies. So sad! I can tell you from first hand experience with literally HUNDREDS of babies, they WILL eat it. It may take a month or more to slowly introduce it, but PLEASE, slowly introduce it.

Other items that are good for babies and young sulcatas:
Mulberry leaves
Grape vine leaves
Hibiscus leaves
African hibiscus leaves
Blue hibiscus leaves
Rose of Sharon leaves
Rose leaves
Geraniums
Gazanias
Lavatera
Pansies
Petunias
Hostas
Honeysuckle
Cape honeysuckle
Leaves and blooms from any squash plant, like pumpkin, cucumber, summer squash, etc...
Young spineless opuntia cactus pads

Weeds:
There are soooooooo many...
Dandelion
Mallow
Filaree
Smooth Sow thistle
Prickly Sow thistle
Milk thistle
Goat head weed
Cats ear
Nettles
Trefoil
Wild onion
Wild mustard
Wild Garlic
Clovers
Broadleaf plantain
Narrow leaf plantain
Chick weed
Hawksbit
Hensbit
Hawksbeard

Other good stuff:
"Testudo Seed Mix" from http://www.tortoisesupply.com/SeedMixes
Pasture mixes or other seeds from http://www.groworganic.com/seeds.html
Homegrown alfalfa
Mazuri Tortoise Chow
ZooMed Grassland Tortoise Food


When sulcatas get a little older and bigger, usually around 10-12" for me, they will start munching on plain, dry grass hay, all on their own. I like orchard grass hay the best for this, but I also used bermuda grass hay for years too. When they hit this stage, life gets MUCH easier. Just make sure you have drinking water readily available when they start eating hay, and consider soaking regularly if you are not 100% sure your tortoise is drinking enough, or if you live in a really dry area, like me.

I live in a desert and yet there is still green stuff all around me. I beg you to take a walk and learn about all the green stuff around you, INSTEAD of driving to the store again. Instead of a trip to the grocery store, take a trip to a local nursery for some weed IDs, and tips on growing your own stuff. What could be better than stepping out into your backyard and collecting all the free, healthy tortoise food you can carry? Think of the gas savings! Anyone who is a tortoise keeper, ought to be somewhat of a gardener too.

I beg of you... PLEASE stop the grocery store MADNESS!!!

 

[ValerieAnn]

Thank you so much for putting this information out here for us new mommies to read and learn, this list is very extensive and informative! It gives me ideas of the many things I can grow in our yard. I told my hubby not to cut the grass anymore. We live on the edge of the wetlands of Southern Maryland and have grass and dandelions and clovers growing all natural in our yard. We have honeysuckles growing on our fence in the back yard. Thank you, ValerieAnn

 

[kalei01]

Tom does his shell look okay or do you think he needs to be seen

 

[Tom]

Tom does his shell look okay or do you think he needs to be seen

I can see some rough growth, but I wouldn't do anything about that.

How much time is he spending outside daily? What is his length?

 

[kalei01]

I can see some rough growth, but I wouldn't do anything about that.

How much time is he spending outside daily? What is his length?

He spends about a hour or 2 I don't have an outdoor enclosure so I have to sit out there with him and at 95 degrees I can't do longer. He is about 3 inches and 250 grams. I am not sure on exact age but I received him at end of February and he was a little over 50 grams

 

[Nutella]

Over and over I type up and answer diet questions and try to get people feeding the right stuff, but I find that the "norm" is grocery store food. Grocery store food is expensive, a hassle to obtain, and very low on the list of what is best for sulcatas.

These tortoises are GRASS eaters. From the moment they hatch, until the day they die, grass should be a large part of their diet. Spring mix, romaine, kale and other greens are okay as a small part of a varied diet, but should not be the bulk of the diet. If someone must feed grocery store foods, the pile should be sprinkled with grass clippings or "Salad Style". For those who like the convenience of pre-packaged, easy to handle stuff, "Salad Style" is basically finely blended up grass hay that can be sprinkled over any other food to add bulk and fiber. I got my "Salad Style" from Tyler at tortoisesupply.com.

For those that have a lawn, or access to one: Get a tub, get some scissors, get down on your knees, and go to work! It is so EASY to cut a few handfuls of fresh, green, tender, young grass, and dramatically improve your baby sulcatas diet. Any kind of grass will work. Finely chop it for little tortoises and sprinkle it all over the other food, or feed it by itself in a pile. Do be careful about lawn chemicals and pesticides. If you have a gardener, or its not your lawn, use extreme caution. Live in a condo or apartment complex? Don't do it. Not worth the risk, no matter what they tell you. Just grow your own grass in pots on your patio or window sills. Friends, family and neighbors might be able to help you out here.

For those who still just love the grocery store: Most stores are now selling little plastic pots of live, freshly sprouted, organic wheat grass. You can find it at many pet stores too. This is a great way to add grass to the diet of a young sulcata. Get your scissors, hold the pot over the food pile and chop away. Water it and keep the pot in a window sill, and in a few days, you'll have more. You might need several pots as your baby grows, or you can buy seed from one of our site sponsors (Thank you Carolina Pet Supply) and sprout even bigger trays of it yourself.

Some of you may find that your "grass eating" tortoise wants nothing to do with eating grass. This should surprise no one, since most breeders and most keepers never even attempt to feed actual grass to their grass eating tortoise babies. So sad! I can tell you from first hand experience with literally HUNDREDS of babies, they WILL eat it. It may take a month or more to slowly introduce it, but PLEASE, slowly introduce it.

Other items that are good for babies and young sulcatas:
Mulberry leaves
Grape vine leaves
Hibiscus leaves
African hibiscus leaves
Blue hibiscus leaves
Rose of Sharon leaves
Rose leaves
Geraniums
Gazanias
Lavatera
Pansies
Petunias
Hostas
Honeysuckle
Cape honeysuckle
Leaves and blooms from any squash plant, like pumpkin, cucumber, summer squash, etc...
Young spineless opuntia cactus pads

Weeds:
There are soooooooo many...
Dandelion
Mallow
Filaree
Smooth Sow thistle
Prickly Sow thistle
Milk thistle
Goat head weed
Cats ear
Nettles
Trefoil
Wild onion
Wild mustard
Wild Garlic
Clovers
Broadleaf plantain
Narrow leaf plantain
Chick weed
Hawksbit
Hensbit
Hawksbeard

Other good stuff:
"Testudo Seed Mix" from http://www.tortoisesupply.com/SeedMixes
Pasture mixes or other seeds from http://www.groworganic.com/seeds.html
Homegrown alfalfa
Mazuri Tortoise Chow
ZooMed Grassland Tortoise Food


When sulcatas get a little older and bigger, usually around 10-12" for me, they will start munching on plain, dry grass hay, all on their own. I like orchard grass hay the best for this, but I also used bermuda grass hay for years too. When they hit this stage, life gets MUCH easier. Just make sure you have drinking water readily available when they start eating hay, and consider soaking regularly if you are not 100% sure your tortoise is drinking enough, or if you live in a really dry area, like me.

I live in a desert and yet there is still green stuff all around me. I beg you to take a walk and learn about all the green stuff around you, INSTEAD of driving to the store again. Instead of a trip to the grocery store, take a trip to a local nursery for some weed IDs, and tips on growing your own stuff. What could be better than stepping out into your backyard and collecting all the free, healthy tortoise food you can carry? Think of the gas savings! Anyone who is a tortoise keeper, ought to be somewhat of a gardener too.

I beg of you... PLEASE stop the grocery store MADNESS!!!

 

[Nutella]

Thank you for this. I'm new on the forum, 18 years old, and bought a baby sulcata about 10 months ago. I give him romain lettuce,
chicory, cucumber, pumpkin and
zucchini on a regulatie basis because the (?breeder) told me so. He is Growing fast and doing fine. He is almost two years now. I tried to feed him grass and hay but he doesn't eat it. I'm trying to learn him eat it by stikking it to his other groceries. Do you have any other tips and tricks for me?

 

[Tom]

Thank you for this. I'm new on the forum, 18 years old, and bought a baby sulcata about 10 months ago. I give him romain lettuce,
chicory, cucumber, pumpkin and
zucchini on a regulatie basis because the (?breeder) told me so. He is Growing fast and doing fine. He is almost two years now. I tried to feed him grass and hay but he doesn't eat it. I'm trying to learn him eat it by stikking it to his other groceries. Do you have any other tips and tricks for me?

To use hay for a little one, you need to chop it up super fine and re-hydrate it for 30-60 minutes. Then mix a tiny little bit with the days greens. Start slow with very small amounts and work up to more and more as the weeks and months pass. Its much easier to use real grass if you can. They usually don't get too into hay until they are closer to 30cm. You can also feed them on a bed of grass hay to begin to introduce it to them.

From the grocery store, try to use more endive and escarole. HEY! You can use Belgian endive!!! I'd reduce or eliminate the romaine, cucumber, zucchini, and pumpkin. None of those are toxic, but its not what your tortoise should be eating. Also look for collard, turnip and mustard greens, cilantro, occasional green beans or peas, carrot tops, celery tops, and more.

 

[kalei01]

To use hay for a little one, you need to chop it up super fine and re-hydrate it for 30-60 minutes. Then mix a tiny little bit with the days greens. Start slow with very small amounts and work up to more and more as the weeks and months pass. Its much easier to use real grass if you can. They usually don't get too into hay until they are closer to 30cm. You can also feed them on a bed of grass hay to begin to introduce it to them.

From the grocery store, try to use more endive and escarole. HEY! You can use Belgian endive!!! I'd reduce or eliminate the romaine, cucumber, zucchini, and pumpkin. None of those are toxic, but its not what your tortoise should be eating. Also look for collard, turnip and mustard greens, cilantro, occasional green beans or peas, carrot tops, celery tops, and more.

Is cactus pads or aloe okay to feed also he loves to eat dandelion leaves and hibiscus flowers