First tortoises/yellow-footed tortoises in captivity

2turtletom

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@Michael231 I just received this info on the giant denticulata from Bill Holmstrom:

"Re. the denticulata, we did have one very large animal that was found on Long Island and brought to us by Norm Soule. We moved it to St. Catherines early on in our presence there, but it plowed through a fence the first year and disappeared on the island, never to be seen again. I believe that we did have a few smaller individuals there a bit later on, but removed them, and all the other non-Madagascan tortoises when disease issues became an issue. I believe it was intra-nuclear coccidiosis that prompted the cleanup. I don't recall where we sent them.

With respect to the two very large denticulata at St. Louis, they did not come from the Bronx. My recollection is that St. Louis purchased those animals from Louie Porras and that they originated in Suriname. They were huge - as large as the female Aldabra tortoises they were housed with. The last time I was there, and it has been many years now, I think they only had one left. I'm sure you could get all the details you want from Peter Taylor, but I don't know how to get in touch with him anymore. If Jeff Ettling is still at St. Louis, I'm sure he'd be able to fill you in. Hope that helps."

It seems that Peter Taylor and Jeff Ettling (or the St. Louis Zoo registrar) should be able to fill in more of the information on those St. Louis animals for you

Bill Z

The CITES treaty started in 1975, and through the CITES database, they have information on imported animals going back to 1975. I know the OP is asking about Yellowfoots before the 1970's, but lets' look at sulcatas and yellowfoots.

The first entry for Sulcata imported into the U.S. was 1982. 1 live animal came in to the U.S. from Great Britain.
Then in 1985 50 animals were imported to the U.S. from Liberia of animals that originated in Mali.
1986- 6 animals from Liberia originally from Mali

Once 1990 hit, sulcatas started to be regularly imported eventually in the 1000's in the middle of the decade, through the year 2000, which is when we know the import was banned along with Kinixys belliana and Stigmochelys


Ok, let's look at Yellowfoots:

First records of Yellowfoot imports into the U.S. was 1978 (remembering the database only starts in 1975- there was no treating, and likely no tracking of animal imports before then).

262 animals were brought under 4 separate shipments from the countries of Bolivia, Panama, and Guatemala.

If you'd like to do more research, the CITES database is really interesting and can be accessed here: https://trade.cites.org/en/cites_trade/
 

Michael231

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@zovick thank you for all of your input!

I am currently looking into trying to find Peter Taylor’s contact information. So far the most recent thing I can find with his name attached was a talk he gave in New York on entomology in 2018. There are a surprising amount of Peter Taylor’s. Even a lot from St. Louis.

Thank you for contacting Dr. Holmstrom, the locality data is very interesting as well as the origin data. It is much more data on those tortoises we have yet come across! Extremely helpful for our report.

So far my friend and I have been going through all current phylogeography/population genetics studies on denticulatus and carbonarius. There are very few to begin with. One of two studies recorded significant haplotype sharing, which they attributed to likely hybridization between both species. This was at the base of the Xingu River somewhere in Para. Based on these results we’re beginning to think there might be some role non-Mendelian genetics is playing in contributing to the sizes attained by these tortoises. Not much epigenetic work has been done on reptiles that we have found, but it is known from other species (predominantly mammals) that certain hybrids can attain unusually large sizes due to genetic imprinting controlling gene expression. If the very large St. Louis specimen came from Suriname, based on the current TTWG range maps for both species, there are localities in the northeastern/central part of the country where both carbonarius and denticulatus could potentially hybridize in Suriname. Given that the St. Louis animals don’t show any intermediate morphological characteristics, we’re also considering the potential that another yellowfoot variety could potentially exist. With the new description of Chelus orinocensis, there has been new light shed on the topographical/hydrological shifts in the Amazon, which could lead to discovering some isolated pockets of forest where species divergence was possible.

Multiple sources have told me the female at St. Louis is hermaphroditic, however I’m not sure how this was tested. If she’s simply sterile, it could support hybrid origin.

With this new locality data, more possible hybrid origin has been shed on this topic. I’m in the process of emailing some geneticists I know to get their take on it, if you, or anyone else reading over this, have any input or contacts who might be able to shed more light on this possibility that would be tremendously appreciated.
 

Michael231

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@2turtletom thank you for the link!
Awhile back while looking through old cumulative trade reports from CITES I came across a paper by Dr. Teresa Telecky, however it was from >15 years ago. She sent me a link to the database, and I have been going over it recently.

Very good data on there though. Thank you for adding the sulcata history! I have not looked that one over.
 

iAmCentrochelys sulcata

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What is your username?
Mine is @officialturtleinsta
My friends is @jack_reptile_naturalist_302
yep i remember you i’ll say i used to chat with you a lot! been a few years! you might not remember me but i remember you lol
i think 2 years ago or 3 not sure but i used to annoy you a lot i didn’t know much about turtles and tortoises. ??
seems you haven’t change your so serious!!!
 

Michael231

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yep i remember you i’ll say i used to chat with you a lot! been a few years! you might not remember me but i remember you lol
i think 2 years ago or 3 not sure but i used to annoy you a lot i didn’t know much about turtles and tortoises. ??
seems you haven’t change your so serious!!!
Haha! What’s your IG name?
 

zovick

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@zovick thank you for all of your input!

I am currently looking into trying to find Peter Taylor’s contact information. So far the most recent thing I can find with his name attached was a talk he gave in New York on entomology in 2018. There are a surprising amount of Peter Taylor’s. Even a lot from St. Louis.

Thank you for contacting Dr. Holmstrom, the locality data is very interesting as well as the origin data. It is much more data on those tortoises we have yet come across! Extremely helpful for our report.

So far my friend and I have been going through all current phylogeography/population genetics studies on denticulatus and carbonarius. There are very few to begin with. One of two studies recorded significant haplotype sharing, which they attributed to likely hybridization between both species. This was at the base of the Xingu River somewhere in Para. Based on these results we’re beginning to think there might be some role non-Mendelian genetics is playing in contributing to the sizes attained by these tortoises. Not much epigenetic work has been done on reptiles that we have found, but it is known from other species (predominantly mammals) that certain hybrids can attain unusually large sizes due to genetic imprinting controlling gene expression. If the very large St. Louis specimen came from Suriname, based on the current TTWG range maps for both species, there are localities in the northeastern/central part of the country where both carbonarius and denticulatus could potentially hybridize in Suriname. Given that the St. Louis animals don’t show any intermediate morphological characteristics, we’re also considering the potential that another yellowfoot variety could potentially exist. With the new description of Chelus orinocensis, there has been new light shed on the topographical/hydrological shifts in the Amazon, which could lead to discovering some isolated pockets of forest where species divergence was possible.

Multiple sources have told me the female at St. Louis is hermaphroditic, however I’m not sure how this was tested. If she’s simply sterile, it could support hybrid origin.

With this new locality data, more possible hybrid origin has been shed on this topic. I’m in the process of emailing some geneticists I know to get their take on it, if you, or anyone else reading over this, have any input or contacts who might be able to shed more light on this possibility that would be tremendously appreciated.

@Michael231 It would seem your best lead to Peter Taylor would be Jeff Ettling or someone else from the St. Louis Zoo. Have you asked Jeff Ettling if he can find any contact info the zoo may have for Peter? Just FYI, Bill Holmstrom says he does not know how to contact Peter any longer.
 

Yvonne G

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so how do you communicate in case of a Accident? you should get one.
No chance of an accident. I'm a recluse and only put about 100 miles a year on my truck. Ever hear of the little old lady from Pasadena who used car salesmen used to use as a selling point to sell their used cars? Well, I'm the little old lady from Clovis.
 

iAmCentrochelys sulcata

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No chance of an accident. I'm a recluse and only put about 100 miles a year on my truck. Ever hear of the little old lady from Pasadena who used car salesmen used to use as a selling point to sell their used cars? Well, I'm the little old lady from Clovis.
do you have family close? there’s always a chance of a accident health issues ect. i don’t understand the last part.?
 

AmandaTX

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As an additional source to CITES, you could try a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request to USDA or USFWS. I'm not sure how far back the electronic records go, or which agency would be most likely to house what you were looking for. Several years ago I used FOIA with USDA to get records on diamondback terrapin exports for a research project, but I only went back about 10 years. Still, this could be an interesting source for records on the current import/ export to show how things have changed,
 

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