First Enclosure

[Kadaan]

I have no tortoise yet, but have contacted a breeder who said I can come by and pick out a Ibera Greek Tortoise hatchling when I'm ready

I've been reading up a lot about enclosures (this forum rocks, btw) and this thread will be my start to finish journal/blog/whatever of the process. So here we are, Day 1.

I picked up a large plastic bin from Target for ~$18. I wanted one with a lot of floor space, and now that I'm looking at it I'm worried it may be too short. It's a 74qt underbed box with dimensions 44" x 20" x 6.5" (quarter for perspective, sorta):





I also stopped by PetCo and picked up a few miscellaneous items:


A hide for the hatchling ($12), and coconut husk ($1.18, awesome deal!) + sand ($14) to mix (50/50?) for the substrate (the leftover I'll be using in my aquarium, which is why I splurged.) I also have a small bag of smooth aquarium gravel I was thinking about using to surround a water dish. I'd put the dish against the side of the box near the middle. I wanted to bury it so it's just barely (~1/4-1/2") above the substrate, and surround it with a ~2-inch band of the gravel. I'm hoping this will help keep substrate out of the water dish.




I bought a 20lb box of slate ($30), so I can make a small pile on the hot side for the hatchling to bask in. I probably could have bought a single piece or two at a tropical fish store, but I have two fish tanks so I'll be using any extra pieces in there anyway. The last item I picked up was some seeds to plant so I can start growing some fresh veggies




Tomorrow:
1. Shop around for a UVB bulb (100W was $80 at PetCo, I thought I saw them cheaper than that online,) Hanging/Clip lamp, stand, and a small scale.
2. Possibly hit up Ikea to see if I can find a cheap coffee table or long low bookshelf to sit the enclosure on.
3. Reconstitute some of the coco husk.

Cost so far: $12+$30+$14+$1+$18+$5 = $80


QUESTIONS!
1. I live in Irvine, CA. Do you think I need a heat emitter at night? The breeder sent me a care guide and he says that here in SoCal he never uses one; room temperature is fine at night after turning off the UVB.
2. The aquarium gravel idea. Good? Bad?
3. Substrate. Is 50/50 a good mix? The breeder's guide says he uses indoor/outdoor ribbed carpeting and doesn't recommend soil/bark as the hatchlings may try to eat it.
4. Enclosure height. I figure I'll have around an inch of substrate, so 5.5" from substrate to lip. I'm sure it'll be fine for a hatchling, but how long do you think this will last before I need to get a bigger one?
5. Would stuffing an extra 1/2"-1" of pure coconut husk into the hide work well for humidity and extra feel-safe-factor?

 

[Kadaan]

I reconstituted the coconut husk this evening, and it wasn't exactly what I thought it would be. I guess the brick that was on sale was much larger chunks, and not the small fibrous one that I've purchased in the past. I'm letting it dry out, but I'm no longer sure that mixing it with sand would be a good idea. I think the coconut husk is too big to mix at all, and the sand would just fall to the bottom. Maybe that's a good thing? Would that just give extra traction for the bark when the hatchling is walking around on it?




I ordered the light from Reptile Depot today as well; ZooMed 8.5" Clamp Lamp ($14,) ZooMed 100W PowerSun UVB bulb ($40, the EXACT SAME one that was $80 at PetCo,) and a $9 digital thermometer. Running total of expenses is now up to $80+$14+40+9 = $143.

 

[Meg90]

I'd ditch the bark. I will even stain things red. Get some EcoEarth and count the money spent as a lesson learned! (I did that once as well )

Otherwise, I think your bin is perfect. I use the same one for my older Greek hatchling. She's been in it for months, now, and I am hoping it will last the winter.

I keep my Greeks on Aspen, with 1/3 of the bin sectioned off and in that part, I use straight eco earth, that I keep damp. that way, they have a drier side, and a moist side so I don't have to worry about someone getting too much moisture, and getting nose bubbles or shell rot.

I can snap a picture if you like, tomorrow to show you what I have done.

I would skip the rocks too. Anything that that tortoise can potentially fit in its mouth, is dangerous. A small stone like that could create an intestinal blockage and kill your baby. Put the dish on a slate tile if you are really worried about the substrate thing. But its not a big deal. Anouk only just starting really tracking dirt into her water, because she's getting bigger. And you're going to change it once a day anyways, so it shouldn't be that big of a deal...they need the traction from the substrate. It helps them get in and out of the dish.

 

[tortoisenerd]

Hi there! Welcome to the group.

Yes, the sides are too short. You want substrate at least as deep as the tort is long, preferably double. I would get the 50 gallon tub with the most floor space you can get for example. Also look for one with solid sides the tort cannot see through; this minimizes their want to get out of the enclosure.

I wouldn't recommend you use that sand for a tort. You want play sand from the home improvement store for kid's sandboxes. This is safe and clean, large particles, and is not known to cause impaction like the "tasty" reptile sand. It's $4 for a 50 lb bag, which is more than you'll need. The less you buy at pet stores the more money you'll save!

I recommend the Mega Ray or T-Rex Active UV 100 watt bulbs. $42+ plus shipping. Get a lamp stand plus a 10 inch diameter deep dome fixture with ceramic socket. You can rig up your own stand if you want, but you need something adjustable so as the room temperature changes you move the MVB up and down. The fixture you can get at a hardware or home improvement store, or a pet store.

I think the gravel is too small, and the tort could try to eat it. I would use slightly larger rocks. I find the ramp or step dishes have less issues with substrate getting in them, and are much easier for hatchlings. The $25 was my best investment in addition to my laser thermometer (PE1, also $25).

You can get a single slate tile for $2 at Home Depot. I broke it in half or so to make a feeding plate. Some torts don't like to bask on tiles and it can get hot. I'd only use it to feed on for now. Make sure you have a hide in the warm and cool area. You don't want to pile anything for the tort to climb on under the heat source as when they climb, they flip. They don't last as long under hot lights or in water.

If your room temperature stays above 65F at night you're fine in my opinion. Less sand the better. I have heard more like 30% lately but it's hard to estimate. Soil and bark is fine too. Avoid any barks that have a mix of woods, or are pine/cedar/etc. If it doesn't clearly spell out on the bag the type of wood, and it's safe (such as Cyprus), then beware. I think the coconut fiber is great though. Try that first and see what you and the tort think. Use warm water and as big of a bucket as you can. You want it to dry out a bit before you'd place a tort in, but no problem for you with that! Just future reference.

Sphagnum moss would work better if you want to create a humid hide, but I wouldn't place anything in the hide at first to entice him more to go in (they get scared of unknown places). The simpler the better right now. You do need multiple hides. I'd say 3--one in each temperature zone. Even boxes or solid color plastic tubs are great. What size is that log? You may want to use something with sides perpendicular to the substrate (like a box) for now if it's a smaller one that he could even possibly climb. My tort can climb his log that is almost twice his height on his hind legs, as the bark acts as steps to dig nails into.

Yes, you need to have the enclosure up off the ground to help minimize drafts (and it's warmer). I would put something more at a table or even bar height as it's easy to observe the little one and take care of the enclosure. I have an IKEA dining room buffet which we have in the dining room (duh!) that we custom made a tort table to fit for my little Russian. Works awesome! We bought it to match our other stuff though.

What are you growing the seeds in? Organic soil out of the enclosure, or in the enclosure? I wouldn't grow the chard as it's high in oxalic acid (binds calcium) and there are better choices. The collard greens are too, but not as bad, so moderate amounts in a varied diet are fine. A great seed to purchase is turnip greens. Also, look at the seeds at carolinapetsupply.com. I would suggest growing what you cannot get in the stores, which is weeds. You can get the lettuces at the stores. What's your diet plan? Pure calcium supplement? Water dish? Thermometer? Humidity gauge?

Best wishes! Looking forward to future installments. You're doing great. Asking lots of good questions. Glad to see you're preparing and not rushing into this.

---

You can mix the sand and eco earth in the enclosure with your hands. You want it mixed throughout. If the sand was all at the bottom and the tort burrowed, they would hit only the sand.

 

[Kadaan]

Thanks both of you for all the feedback! I still have a lot of stuff to do it seems. I'll definitely be ditching the bark, and think I'll do 1/3 aspen (under the heater) and 2/3 slightly damp eco earth+playsand mix on the rest. The water dish I was planning on using is a glazed ceramic pot saucer thingy; it's 1.5" tall and 8" in diameter so I wanted to sink it in an inch into the substrate to make sure the tort can get in and out easily. The petstore also had Cypress and several different types of Fir mixes for use as substrates. What are good target humidity levels for a greek? I'm assuming the hot side doesn't really matter as it will be quite dry, but what about the humid side? I ordered a digital thermometer today, and I have an old analog "Kritterz" hygrometer that I used for my tarantula.

The opening in the log hide is 2.75" tall, and it has a 10"x8" footprint I was planning on digging the rear of it into the substrate a little and propping the front up another 1/2"-1" on rocks/slate if it looks too short. I'll definitely make sure it's at least 3-4" away from the edges so the tort can't use it to climb out. I'll have to find something else to use as a second hide in the warmer section. I have tons of cardboard boxes, could I fashion something simple out of that?

Room temperature right now drops to maybe... 75 at night and 85 during the day. It's just a really hot week and normally it's more like 70-80. If it does drop below 65 I'll pick up a low wattage heat lamp to keep it at/above 65.

I planted the seeds in pots outside filled with some old potting soil I had (I don't think it's organic.) I don't know how well plants would grow in the coco husk/sand mix, so all I'll end up doing is transplanting them into some small pots (or pvc pipe like the setup in the sticky) after rinsing the roots of well in case the potting soil I'm using now isn't completely organic. My main concern with while plants inside the enclosure is whether they'd be hardy enough to grow in a small pot without fertilizer. Are there certain plants that do better than others in such confined spaces?

For diet, I was planning on predominantly spring mix (without spinach) dusted with calcium powder and a couple small pieces of fruit/berries/flowers once or twice a week. I also love cooking with nappa cabbage and bok choy so I'm sure that'll get added as well . The "Mesclun Classic Mix" seed packet I picked up lists: Ashley Lettuce, Red Salad Bowl Lettuce, Arugula Rocket, Corn Salad, Endive Green Curled, Radicchio Red Verona, and Curled Chervil.


I learned as a kid to always do research before you get a pet. After my first fishtank failed the first week (how was I supposed to know you were supposed to cycle it?), my first parakeet died over new years (apparently they're extremely sensitive to air quality, and I should have moved it down to a completely enclosed room,) and my first red eared slider died due to poor water quality (you have to do near-daily water changes if you confine it to a cage as small as a 10g aquarium, which could have been the cause of death in itself)... reading about why your pet died is 1000000000x less fun than reading about them beforehand and being excited about bringing it home to a comfortable environment!

 

[tortoisenerd]

I would keep the hot side the moist side and the colder side the dry side. Hot and wet is good while cold and wet is bad. Don't worry about humidity so much. Just have a moist substrate area, where you squeeze a handful and it holds shape but no water comes out. Add water every couple days as needed by pouring a cup on the substrate and mix it up with your hands. Cardboard boxes are great. Some torts (like mine) won't use hides and only like plants and such to hide under. You'll get a feel for your torts likes and dislikes soon enough. In winter you may need heating at night. Keep an eye on it. Be sure to check the temperature in the enclosure, and not just the thermostat. It will be different by even 5 degrees rather easily in different parts of the room. If the soil has not had anything added to it like pesticides/fertilizers for at least 6 months it's fine. Otherwise, get new organic stuff. Rinsing off the roots won't do a thing as the pesticides are systemic. I would use little pots and sink the pots into the substrate if you wish, but not plant them directly. It's tough to keep them alive. I rarely hear of people getting them to last well. They an be expensive too. I love fake plants for this reason!

I would totally ditch any fruit idea. My opinion. You can make your own. I think it can cause more problems than good. Treat foods that are healthy for example are cactus pads, butternut squash, and hibiscus blooms. Cabbage and bok choy are poor choices for a staple food. If you have them in the house toss in a bite (literally not much at all) every week, but that's it. Spring mix is a great start, but I'd recommend adding in more greens, weeds, vegetable leaves (except toxic ones like tomato and pepper), flowers, etc, that are organic. If you can grow trays of seeds that is a great start. That lettuce mix sounds good. Very similar to spring mix, so watch that you aren't feeding the same things and thinking you are giving more variety when you're not. Do you have a yard which you can keep an area without fertilizers/pesticides? Weeds like dandelions are a favorite of torts and healthy. Look for lists of what is edible, and what you can grow. You can even buy seeds online of tort mixes, weeds, etc.

Glad you're doing well!

 

[Kadaan]

I bought a huge bag of play sand from Lowes after work (50lbs for like $4, not sure what I'll do with the rest of it!) I found it odd that play sand was next to concrete, and not with all the soils/gravels/dirt in the garden section. Picked up a brick of eco earth that's draining in the sink right now, and I'll mix that in when it's no longer soaked.

For calcium supplements, I picked up a medium-sized cuttlebone and looked for calcium powder. The only powder they had the pet store was "Tetra ReptoCal" calcium + vitamin D3. Is that ok to use to lightly dust the greens with, or should I find pure calcium without the vitamin D3 added?

I guess fake plants will work for an indoor enclosure to hide in/under. I saw a big display of small cacti at Lowes, are they safe to plant in the enclosure? Will the tort leave them alone for the most part, or eat them up?

I don't have a yard that I can grow plants in, so right now I have a half dozen pots on a deck that I'm growing stuff in. Lowes didn't have weed mixes for sale (surprise!) so I may order a turtle mix pack online.

So excited! I spent almost two hours at work every day looking at tortoise photos and youtube videos online, soooo adorable! Which actually raises a question. In this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36DZwrT4lJk they have a baby diaper on their tortoise and let it walk around the house. Is it ok to let a hatchling/yearling wander around a room in the house? How often do they relieve themselves?

---

The eco earth finished draining, and it's still we to the touch but I can't squeeze any drops of water out of it. I mixed it with play sand about 2/3 eco earth 1/3 sand and put my decorations in the enclosure:




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It feels a bit cramped with all the slate, do you think I should remove some of it? The small piece against the wall in the middle is what I was planning on using as the feeding spot. There's a small tunnel under the large piece you can see in the second photo, and a cave under the slanted rock in the third (hard to see how large the cave is.) The log was pretty big, and there isn't a lot of space for me to put it where the tort can't climb out of the enclosure. I wanted to make sure the openings weren't facing the light source, so there will be a shady place to hide. I also propped up 2 pieces of cardboard from a 12-pack of soda; one near where the light will be and one in the far back by the log. I figure that back corner is also a good place to put the fake plants.

As far as fake plants go, is there any kind I should stay away from? Plastic reptile/aquarium plants I assume are fine, what about silk plants from a craft store?

 

[Meg90]

I'd pull some of the slate, especially for a young hatchling, you don't want them slipping and falling onto their backs...

Silk craft store plants are perfect. I get all mine from stores like that, because pet store prices are so outrageous.

Here is a picture of the setup I have in that same bin:

Anouk has been in it for over four months now, and I think it should last until spring. As you can see from that picture, she is pretty good sized now! She's grown over an inch since I'd had her (in five months approx)...I keep a plexi panel over the moist side, so help with humidity. Instead of a humid hide, I have a humid "side" it stays in the upper 70s over there, so she has a cool place to go if she gets too warm. Its funny, she poos over there mostly. Her water dish will get some substrate in it, but a daily rinse and refill she's good to go.


And here is a picture of the hatchling set up, that I have done fore my one month old. I find putting plants in corners is a good idea. Anouk loved her corner hiding spots best too. (as does this baby)

I use plexi over her moist side as well.

Oh, and I use Reptocal with D3. I dust ANYTHING that goes into either babies mouth. They need as much calicum as they can get. Its very important. Dust at EVERY feeding. Don't let anyone tell you every other day---not with a baby.

And I am sorry, but that video is CRUEL in my opinion. I can't imagine how that animal felt. Its a horrible thing to do. I am surprised that you found a video like that....I would think that people are intelligent enough not to do something like that. Please do not attempt it.

Also, "free roam" is a reallllllllllllly bad idea as hatchlings, yearlings, or adults. The floor is colder than you think, and all manner of hair, and dust and dirt is right on tortoise level. Swallowing a hair could result in it becoming twisted internally and causing blockage. It could easily kill a small tortoise. Also, they will EAT anything that strikes their fancy, if they can get in into their mouths. They like color--so if you have left over food bits under the counter, or around, they WILL get it in their mouths. Think about a piece of dried up shredded cheese, or scattered, brightly colored breakfast cereal. They will eat it, and not be able to digest it.


If you must take the baby out, find a clean, quiet, warm area and keep an amazingly WATCHFUL eye on him/her. Its astounding how much trouble they can get into. Don't keep them out too long, as you are then messing with body temp, and a really high temp is required to digest and function normally. A hatchling loses heat really quickly. I think, all around, that its a bad idea. I never take Anouk out to free roam, and the new baby is so small, I think it would cause an immense amount of stress to be out of her environment.

 

[tortoisenerd]

I would suggest no D3 if you have UVB. In my opinion too much D3 is toxic, and you can over do it since it's hard to know how much to give (they produce it on their own with the UVB). D3 is fat soluble not water soluble like calcium, so toxicity can build up, although rare. Do your research and see what you think. Opinions here vary. I think it has more of a risk than causing harm than doing any additional good. Yes, calcium on all food as a hatchling is vital. You can get pure calcium powder cheaper than the reptile stuff at human supplement stores, vitamin sections, etc.

Cacti won't do much for ground cover or have any added value, but are fine...I would put them in pots and sink them in if you really insist. I suggest the silk plants like Meg said, the ferns, large leaf ones, etc. They have 40% off one item coupons in the paper for Michael's. Also sign up for their e-mail list for 50% off one item. Score! Make sure you use organic potting soil for any food you grow (no additives, pesticides, fertilizers) for any plants you grow.

Agree, way way too much slate. You want one piece for food, maybe one other. You can break them in pieces. That's it. 10-20% of the floor area max. I like to have a part of a piece of slate tile for feeding on up against a wall because torts push their food around and make a mess. That way it helps to keep it on the slate and out of the substrate. Torts will eat food up off the substrate and inject it, which you want to minimize, although this is a "safe" substrate.

It is so dangerous to let a tort walk around. Wouldn't you get cold lying naked on the floor? Desert torts need it even warmer than we do. They can pick up things on the floor that we can't see like hair and dust than can harm or kill them. Most houses have hazards like power cords, pets, carpet, cold tile, etc. Torts will typically poop once a day, and pee depending on their access to liquids. They usually only relieve themselves when they replenish their supply. You do need water at all times in enclosures because in captivity we dry them out more.

I still think the container has way too low of sides. You want the log against a wall to create a three-sided hide. I would return it while you can and get one with much higher sides. Any fake plants are fine. Observe the tort when you place the tort in the enclosure. They will likely take a test nibble and decide it's not food. Some torts however insist on chowing down, and then you'll need to remove it. It they bite off a piece or two it can typically pass through fine, but repeated bites of it are bad. A pile of timothy hay is another option for a hide. You just need to take care it isn't damp. If it's on top of a drier part of the moist substrate and you look for any mold, replace it if needed, you'll probably be fine.

You need enough clearance for the tort to walk around all the walls. They will test their boundaries. You don't want something up against the wall but not completely blocking the path, like that water dish. My tort fell in his water dish by walking on the lip...he was upside down and lucky I was home!

I don't believe in ever letting a tort wander around. I will sometimes take my tort out when it's very warm in the house, for less than 20 minutes, and set him on my lap on a paper towel. I have a tort that will just sit and watch TV with us though! If you let them out in a side open space, besides being dangerous, it gives them a taste of freedom which they will never get over. Also, they will be running around looking for a familiar and safe place to hide. People think "oh cool my tort is running around enjoying himself". Nope, just looking for a place to hide most likely. Think long and hard about having your tort spend any time out of its safe enclosure.

Best wishes! You're doing great.

 

[Kadaan]

Target and Lowes didn't have any fake plants, so I found a craft store and they had a HUGE selection (2 full isles worth!)

Enclosure Second Draft:



The closeups make it look really crowded, but you can see in the first photo that's it's not _too_ bad.

 

[tortoisenerd]

Great! I don't think it's crowded. In the wild hatchlings to from hide to hide. I would however try to move the water dish away from the wall. Torts tend to walk along the walls, testing their boundaries. What about placing it under the plant? That way the tort can walk around the entire boundary. Having the food slate against the wall should help keep the food on it a little better too.

 

[Kadaan]

Here's the third (and probably final) draft.

I have the enclosure set up on my bedroom dresser in the corner (the idea was to minimize drafts.) There's an aquarium rock cave thing in this first photo, I ended up removing it as you'll see in the last.


In this photo you can see that I used carpet under the light for the hot/dry side of the enclosure. I was hoping to find some scrap carpet, but all the stores I went to didn't have any. I ended up with a door mat that has a pattern that matches quite well with the enclosure . Folded over in half it was high enough to be level with the substrate, and fit almost perfectly in the box. I also put a piece of slate through the middle of the water dish just to be safe while the tort is still tiny. The top of the slate sits right at water level (1/2-3/4" deep).


Thermometer on the ground to adjust the height of the lamp to ensure proper temperatures before I bring the tort home. I removed the aquarium cave, as I figured it may be too small to crawl into and I was afraid of the tort trying to climb it and falling down under the lamp.



Tomorrow's the big day!!!