Few questions (well a few :P)

[Seiryu]

Ok, these are a few weeds / plants I have. I want to make sure they are OK. So if you could let me know if they are, or if it's a different name etc, please let me know. A lot of questions I know, but I want to make sure.

All pictures are not the clearest but i think they should be enough.

Red or Crimson clover, is there a difference? Pic of the flower.

Pic of the leaves. They are not heart shaped, but football shaped.

Yellow clover. Note the smaller petals, it doesn't look like Oxalis, but I want to be sure.

And leaves, again football shaped.

I want to say this is Chicory, is this correct?

Ok and no more picures, but a few more questions.

I found another Spring Mix. It has a few things I'm not sure about.

It lists Arugula (which from what Danny said can cause issues if fed a lot), Green Chard and Mache. Are these ok, of course within a varied diet?

I have noticed, that no matter how many times I clean his water, it gets dirty the very first time he steps in it. Is there anything I can do to make it not get dirty so fast? TerryO suggested either Moss or flat rocks around it. But I am not sure it'd work. The substrate seems to stick to him. The substrate isn't wet, just moist and I make sure to ring it out if there's extra water.

I've also noticed, he likes to put one leg on the side of the enclosure and he came close to flipping himself. I thought ok, maybe he needs a sight barrier. So I put black construction paper all around the sides of it so he can't see out and he still does it. This worries me. He was probably standing maybe like 45 degrees sideways. Like if his shell was the degree line, it'd be like 45 degrees, hope that makes sense. Any suggestions?

His poop. The first 3 times he pooped it wasn't runny, but it was moist, which I think is good. The next few times he pooped it was a little more runny, but not much. Mainly because he was in the water doing it. It looked more like a cow patty this time, but not even quite as gooey. Does this mean he needs more fiber? I chop up Hay for him to have each feeding, and it's always there for bedding too.

I also have Mazuri, and I moistened a piece today. He did take a few bites out of it, but may have been fully already from the greens. When I feed Mazuri, should it be the only thing I offer? He ate maybe 1/10 of the pellet.

 

[tortoisenerd]

Arugula and mache are fine in any amount I think. I would not feed a lot of red chard though, but the ratio in a spring mix is fine. I wouldn't buy a head of it on its own though for example. My tort won't even touch it.

The further distance between the water and the substrate is best, but yes it gets dirty. Just change it once or twice a day and don't worry about it. They drink "dirty" water in the wild too. If you use a ramp or stair bowl it could help.

Torts always try to climb and get into trouble. Some are able to flip themselves back over. I would just make sure there are as few hazards as possible, and especially keep them away from heat and water as both heat and water are more dangerous to be on their back in/under. I wouldn't worry about it. Some owners even flip their tort over to see if they can flip back on their own. The more hills in the substrate the better for this, as is a substrate with give. Some torts quickly will "give up" as their lungs are compressed. Hatchlings especially are prone to flip over so the best we can do is remove the most hazards we can. I think walls are less likely to flip over with than some hides and things to climb on. My tort has never flipped over that I know of because of climbing the wall, but he has flipped over in his water dish when he walked on the rim and fell in. I found him and he was fine thankfully.

Hay is great if you can get him to eat it, as well as grass (organic). The greens we feed tend to induce more runny poop than weeds. I would up his fiber as much as possible and not worry about it.

I find it easiest for my little guy to completely crumble the moist pellet, otherwise he has a hard time eating it. I prefer to feed it with greens as well but opinions vary. Remember it is higher in calories for the weight than greens so you need to feed less Mazuri than an equivalent amount of greens.

Someone else should be able to comment on the weeds or you can do a picture search on Google and try to match them. Best wishes.

 

[Seiryu]

Arugula and mache are fine in any amount I think. I would not feed a lot of red chard though, but the ratio in a spring mix is fine. I wouldn't buy a head of it on its own though for example. My tort won't even touch it.

The further distance between the water and the substrate is best, but yes it gets dirty. Just change it once or twice a day and don't worry about it. They drink "dirty" water in the wild too. If you use a ramp or stair bowl it could help.

Torts always try to climb and get into trouble. Some are able to flip themselves back over. I would just make sure there are as few hazards as possible, and especially keep them away from heat and water as both heat and water are more dangerous to be on their back in/under. I wouldn't worry about it. Some owners even flip their tort over to see if they can flip back on their own. The more hills in the substrate the better for this, as is a substrate with give. Some torts quickly will "give up" as their lungs are compressed. Hatchlings especially are prone to flip over so the best we can do is remove the most hazards we can. I think walls are less likely to flip over with than some hides and things to climb on. My tort has never flipped over that I know of because of climbing the wall, but he has flipped over in his water dish when he walked on the rim and fell in. I found him and he was fine thankfully.

Hay is great if you can get him to eat it, as well as grass (organic). The greens we feed tend to induce more runny poop than weeds. I would up his fiber as much as possible and not worry about it.

I find it easiest for my little guy to completely crumble the moist pellet, otherwise he has a hard time eating it. I prefer to feed it with greens as well but opinions vary. Remember it is higher in calories for the weight than greens so you need to feed less Mazuri than an equivalent amount of greens.

Someone else should be able to comment on the weeds or you can do a picture search on Google and try to match them. Best wishes.

Thanks. I will try crumbling the Mazuri. I tried grass, and he couldn't get a good handle it on. Just not big enough yet I dont think. Then I chopped it into smaller piece and sort of sprinkled it on his greens. He may have gotten some, but there was a lot on the tile after he was done.

If it does continue to be runny, I may grind the hay and put it in a salt shaker and sprinkle it on with the calcium. Probably try that tomorrow too.

 

[terryo]

I soak the mazuri for a few min. and then add some chopped up greens, and a little fruit for my boxies....When I put it out for them, you should see Pio come running.

 

[tortoisenerd]

That looks like heaven on a plate for boxies!

 

[dmmj]

that looks like a fancy salad I had in a resturant one time, lol

 

[Seiryu]

that looks like a fancy salad I had in a resturant one time, lol

Anyone on the 3 plant identifications?

And also, he finally flipped himself today and I am not sure what to do. I probably caught it within 5minutes. But I can't stay here all day and babysit him. He didn't fully flip himself, but he was on his side, unable to get back on his feet.

Like I said, he cann't even see outside his enclosure and doesn't try climbing the walls in the same spot, he tries everywhere. I hadn't really read anything on this as I didn't even expect him to try and climb the walls.

How long can they stay on their backs (if not in the heat or water) before they give up and die?

 

[tortoisenerd]

How long did you give him to get himself back over? Sometimes it could take them awhile as they may struggle a bit, rest, then go at it again. How high are the walls above the substrate? How long is the tort (SCL)? I have heard of them climbing more if they can all see out.

How long they can stay on their back varies. Some are more prone to giving up than others. Being under a heat source is more dangerous as their plasteron is more sensitive to heat. Being in water is dangerous as they lose the energy to hold their head up out of the water after awhile. While on their back their lungs are depressed. It seems like this could be more of an issue than I originally perceived from the introduction of this thread. Can you provide enclosure pictures? We may be able to give more pointers then.

My vet even suggested we have my tort "practice" being on his back and flipping back over. I can't stand to watch this but I think my fiance did this exercise with him a few times. The more hills in the substrate the better. When not under heat or in water they can typically last longer as well. I have tried to minimize the hazards, and especially keep them in the cooler areas of the enclosure for my tort. I also hear flipping is less of a danger as they get older.

I'll give the identifications a shot.

My guess is red clover, not crimson. Either way, does it matter? Aren't both safe?
Here's red clover:http://images.google.com/images?gbv=2&hl=en&sa=1&q=red+clover&btnG=Search+images&aq=f&oq=
Crimson clover: http://images.google.com/images?gbv=2&hl=en&sa=1&q=crimson+clover&btnG=Search+images&aq=f&oq=

I also agree and guess yellow clover not oxalis.
http://images.google.com/images?hl=en&q=yellow+clover&btnG=Search+Images&gbv=2&aq=f&oq=

This are really cool galleries of garden weeds.
http://www.ipm.ucdavis.edu/PMG/weeds_multi.html#BROAD
http://njaes.rutgers.edu/weeds/thumbnail.asp

Do you have any other pictures of the suspected chicory? Maybe one of a more mature plant? I'm not sure if I agree with that one from these pictures. http://images.google.com/images?gbv=2&hl=en&sa=1&q=chicory&btnG=Search+images&aq=f&oq=

Sorry you're having to go through this, and sorry again I don't have definite answers to your identifications. Can you post on a gardening website? Also try another post with a specific title for the subject in this subforum: http://tortoiseforum.org/forum-54.html

 

[Seiryu]

Thanks. Like I said, he cannot see outside the enclosure at all. Substrate is a little hilly and not very flat. He just likes to walk on the side of it as he goes about the day.

The substrate is probably 3-4" thick and then the walls are another 12-14" higher than the substrate. He's 2.5" SCL.

I have pics of the enclosure on the tortoise photos section. Listed under "He has arrived". However it is more hilly now than it is in the pictures since it was suggested.

Can you post a picture of your torts substrate so I can see how hilly you make them? I imagine ours are almost the same size with yours a little bigger.

And ya, I don't think it's chicory either when I looked things up. No idea what it is though.

Forgot to add. Moving him to the 48" by 22" enclosure tomorrow. So hopefully he just wanted more room.

If I were to try this flipping exercise, how long do I keep him flipped?

 

[enigma]

Anyone on the 3 plant identifications?

the first two are red clover & yellow clover. the last one doesn't look like chicory, but i'm not sure what it is. can you get a picture of the whole plant?
lee

 

[tortoisenerd]

I was not advised how long. I would monitor to see when he either gets flipped over, gives up, seems to be struggling, etc. I personally can't stand to see my little guy in pain. I imagine it's like us having our chest crushed by a weight, so I personally don't agree with it, but then again I don't disapprove of it.

Here's the enclosure link: http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-8061.html?highlight=he+has+arrived

That's great the little guy is getting more space. What I can think of now is that it's something with the glass, even with the paper covering it. Is there any way you can get him in a tort table? The wood would provide more "footing" for climbing on. I do understand he can't see out. Aquariums are also not the most desirable for other reasons such as temperature gradient. As you describe it I think giving a tort table a shot is a great option. I was able to build mine in one afternoon and about $100, using good quality pine wood, not plywood. I had the boards cut to size at Home Depot, used finishing nails that were tapped in, covered the nails with puddy, brackets for structural support, water based polyeurethane sealant, and shower pan liner stapled in to protect the wood. The sealant had to sit about 4 days to dry and de-fume. It can be very cheap with planning and a great long-term option. You can build a huge table and block off half of it or whatever for now so the enclosure grows with the tort.

Other ideas are as follows. If the tort is walking around the outside edge, it makes me think that both the tort is bored and it doesn't have enough space. Hopefully the larger enclosure will help. I suspect you won't see this behavior for a couple days as the tort settles into the new enclosure. What about adding more cage furnishings such as fake plants? The more things to do the less time the tort spends trying to get out.

If you can get an updated pictures that would be helpful so we can know how it is now as it appears you now have a larger enclosure, a plant, and more hills. That's quite a bit of changes. You can also try putting more furnishings on the edges of the enclosure to make the tort walk around them. Make sure the line of site across the enclosure is blocked so the enclosure looks largest--the tort should not be able to see across the entire enclosure. Hides and plants are great for this.

Does the tort like digging? If so, you can make the substrate 2-3 times as deep as you have it. That will be entertaining for the little one as well.

What is your temperature gradient (high and low)?

 

[Seiryu]

I was not advised how long. I would monitor to see when he either gets flipped over, gives up, seems to be struggling, etc. I personally can't stand to see my little guy in pain. I imagine it's like us having our chest crushed by a weight, so I personally don't agree with it, but then again I don't disapprove of it.

Here's the enclosure link: http://tortoiseforum.org/thread-8061.html?highlight=he+has+arrived

That's great the little guy is getting more space. What I can think of now is that it's something with the glass, even with the paper covering it. Is there any way you can get him in a tort table? The wood would provide more "footing" for climbing on. I do understand he can't see out. Aquariums are also not the most desirable for other reasons such as temperature gradient. As you describe it I think giving a tort table a shot is a great option. I was able to build mine in one afternoon and about $100, using good quality pine wood, not plywood. I had the boards cut to size at Home Depot, used finishing nails that were tapped in, covered the nails with puddy, brackets for structural support, water based polyeurethane sealant, and shower pan liner stapled in to protect the wood. The sealant had to sit about 4 days to dry and de-fume. It can be very cheap with planning and a great long-term option. You can build a huge table and block off half of it or whatever for now so the enclosure grows with the tort.

Other ideas are as follows. If the tort is walking around the outside edge, it makes me think that both the tort is bored and it doesn't have enough space. Hopefully the larger enclosure will help. I suspect you won't see this behavior for a couple days as the tort settles into the new enclosure. What about adding more cage furnishings such as fake plants? The more things to do the less time the tort spends trying to get out.

If you can get an updated pictures that would be helpful so we can know how it is now as it appears you now have a larger enclosure, a plant, and more hills. That's quite a bit of changes. You can also try putting more furnishings on the edges of the enclosure to make the tort walk around them. Make sure the line of site across the enclosure is blocked so the enclosure looks largest--the tort should not be able to see across the entire enclosure. Hides and plants are great for this.

Does the tort like digging? If so, you can make the substrate 2-3 times as deep as you have it. That will be entertaining for the little one as well.

What is your temperature gradient (high and low)?

Thanks again. I meant your enclosure link, so I can see your enclosures hills . I just want to make sure they're going to be hilly enough, but not too hilly. I was also thinking of making a *slight* ravine around the entire outside, so the substrate slopes down as it gets to the wall, to hopefully prevent a lot of flipping. As if he were to walk down to the wall, he's already slightly slanted and can't flip himself. Will have pictures tomorrow to show this if it doesn't make sense.

He has only dug once that i've seen, and only an inch deep (to cover his body, not his shell). It's about 4-5" deep where he dug that hole. So I'm not sure yet if he does or not.

I currently have to clean some things up in the soon-to-be tort room before I can start a tort table. I don't want a smaller one and have to upgrade to his final bigger one. The plan is to do at least an 8x8 ft one for inside.

Once I get things started tomorrow for the bigger enclosure it will hopefully solve this. I got a huge fake plant that I plan to do what you suggest and put a lot of it around the outside so he has to go around it and can't keep walking on the side of the walls. And he'll have 6-7" of substrate this time around. He's only like 2" tall. Also will have 2 hides, one on warmer end and one on cooler end.

As far as temperature gradiant in a tank. It's not hard to do. His basking spot is 91-95. In the middle of the tank it's anywhere from 80-88 and on the cool end about room temp, 70-80. I check temps daily to see if they seem ok.

Any other suggestions on boredom? Besides adding plants, like things for him to do? I read somewhere about adding a ping-pong ball, but I'm not sure he could move it at this age lol.

 

[tortoisenerd]

Here's one; I have aspen so it's a bit different. I forgot about that. I posted yours in case anyone else was looking for it. Sometimes the forum search is finicky. You actually can't see the hills to well for whatever reason except for the huge one. We put it in since he kept trying to climb the log, only succeeding a few times. We helped him!

I put in a ping pong ball and had high hopes, but my tort isn't interested in it. I don't think your tort is too small to try if you want to though. I even painted it with cheap red nail polish (let it dry for 2 days) to entice him more. I don't have any more ideas. I'm still working on entertaining my tort too...I am having the same issue. My little guy climbs the walls like crazy. Thankfully he's not endangering himself though so I do all I can and try to forget about it. I can hear him across the room scratching at the wood though.

I asked about temperatures in case he didn't have a cool area to escape too. Some people have a touch time with the glass to have a cooler area (it may have a basking spot of 95 but not get below 85 anywhere else), and a tort may be trying to escape to thermoregulate. Sounds like you are not having that issue at all, so great!

I like your ravine idea. Lots of plants, hides, maybe some changes in substrate like some slate, safe bark, etc? Whenever you change things around that gives them a "new" space to explore. The more space to walk around different cage furnishings the more they are entertained. I have driftwood for my little guy to climb on but you may want to avoid climbing things until you get his flipping under control.

The only time I had a problem with my tort flipping was when he was walking around the edge of the enclosure and I has his water dish right next to the edge. It has a lip on it and I hadn't thought he would walk on the edge, but he did, and fell. It's not further from the edge so he has clearance to walk. Torts will test their boundaries, so that's one of the reasons they walk around the edges.

What about an outdoor enclosure?

---

The picture shows his food area, water, two fake plants (third one not shown), rocks, ping pong ball, driftwood, hay pile which he sits under most of the day, and his climbing hill and log. He doesn't like traditional hides so I took them out and he uses the plants and hay. Most torts like the typical box/cave hide though. I want to add a second story once he's closer to full size (he's almost 3 inches now and I hope he won't be more than 5 or 6 or else he'll need more space) so he has more floor space. I was going to block part of it off when I got him at just over 2 inches, but once I put in the cage furnishings I ran out of space!

 

[Seiryu]

Here's one; I have aspen so it's a bit different. I forgot about that. I posted yours in case anyone else was looking for it. Sometimes the forum search is finicky. You actually can't see the hills to well for whatever reason except for the huge one. We put it in since he kept trying to climb the log, only succeeding a few times. We helped him!

I put in a ping pong ball and had high hopes, but my tort isn't interested in it. I don't think your tort is too small to try if you want to though. I even painted it with cheap red nail polish (let it dry for 2 days) to entice him more. I don't have any more ideas. I'm still working on entertaining my tort too...I am having the same issue. My little guy climbs the walls like crazy. Thankfully he's not endangering himself though so I do all I can and try to forget about it. I can hear him across the room scratching at the wood though.

I asked about temperatures in case he didn't have a cool area to escape too. Some people have a touch time with the glass to have a cooler area (it may have a basking spot of 95 but not get below 85 anywhere else), and a tort may be trying to escape to thermoregulate. Sounds like you are not having that issue at all, so great!

I like your ravine idea. Lots of plants, hides, maybe some changes in substrate like some slate, safe bark, etc? Whenever you change things around that gives them a "new" space to explore. The more space to walk around different cage furnishings the more they are entertained. I have driftwood for my little guy to climb on but you may want to avoid climbing things until you get his flipping under control.

The only time I had a problem with my tort flipping was when he was walking around the edge of the enclosure and I has his water dish right next to the edge. It has a lip on it and I hadn't thought he would walk on the edge, but he did, and fell. It's not further from the edge so he has clearance to walk. Torts will test their boundaries, so that's one of the reasons they walk around the edges.

What about an outdoor enclosure?

---

The picture shows his food area, water, two fake plants (third one not shown), rocks, ping pong ball, driftwood, hay pile which he sits under most of the day, and his climbing hill and log. He doesn't like traditional hides so I took them out and he uses the plants and hay. Most torts like the typical box/cave hide though. I want to add a second story once he's closer to full size (he's almost 3 inches now and I hope he won't be more than 5 or 6 or else he'll need more space) so he has more floor space. I was going to block part of it off when I got him at just over 2 inches, but once I put in the cage furnishings I ran out of space!

---

The outdoor enclosure will be ready for next year. I got A LOT of cinderblocks, garden landscaping rocks etc that I plan to use for the walls of the enclosure. Once I get the outline done, I'm going to add the organic soil and dirty from the yard, then I'm going to plant grass seeds so it's ready for next year. Then i'll start planting all those plants I listed a few weeks ago. I may not go with them all as I want him to mainly eat grass. So i'll see what he does with those flowers/plants and add more as time goes on.

I have some pansies growing in these smaller dishes. 3 months to flower, oh boy that's a long time lol.

 

[tortoisenerd]

Sounds like an awesome plan.

 

[Crazy1]

Rob, I just went to a talk on habitats It was with a gal that is a zoo horticulturist. She has Dt and said if your tort is pacing or trying to climb the walls it is not happy. It need more interesting things to do like fowers in the way of the pacing or large rocks buried in the soil. But you have a hatchling and when you put him/her into the enclousure it could see out. Perhaps it is just trying to get out. And it is a new enclosure for Thor so he/she will do a lot of exploring at first to see what it is all about. I found when I had my hatchlings climbing the side of a tank (Yep I had 6 DT hatchlings in a tank) I would put plants for them to climb on and under and it seemed to help. Your outside enclosure sounds great but remember even next year Thor will still be pretty small so make sure you have a cover of some type to keep birds etc away from him.
Looks like your off to a great start. I'm sure in no time you will have Thor happy in his new home.

Oh and on the flipping exersize. I would not subject a hatchling to that. It is quite stressful for them to be on their backs. Flipping is always a concern. You set up your enclosure the best you can and watch Thors behavior. If it looks like he is walking at a slant flatten that area. JMHO

 

[Seiryu]

Rob, I just went to a talk on habitats It was with a gal that is a zoo horticulturist. She has Dt and said if your tort is pacing or trying to climb the walls it is not happy. It need more interesting things to do like fowers in the way of the pacing or large rocks buried in the soil. But you have a hatchling and when you put him/her into the enclousure it could see out. Perhaps it is just trying to get out. And it is a new enclosure for Thor so he/she will do a lot of exploring at first to see what it is all about. I found when I had my hatchlings climbing the side of a tank (Yep I had 6 DT hatchlings in a tank) I would put plants for them to climb on and under and it seemed to help. Your outside enclosure sounds great but remember even next year Thor will still be pretty small so make sure you have a cover of some type to keep birds etc away from him.
Looks like your off to a great start. I'm sure in no time you will have Thor happy in his new home.

Oh and on the flipping exersize. I would not subject a hatchling to that. It is quite stressful for them to be on their backs. Flipping is always a concern. You set up your enclosure the best you can and watch Thors behavior. If it looks like he is walking at a slant flatten that area. JMHO

Thanks! Ya, things got really screwed up when my friends fish tank leaked and he needed the bigger enclosure. Tomorrow will be a new enclosure full of fake plants.

Now I need to find a darn flower pot saucer that doesn't have too big a lip. Any suggestions on that? I've been to Home Depot, Lowers and Meijer (like a kroger but bigger grocery store). Meijer had a lot of saucers, but the lips were too big.

 

[tortoisenerd]

I never found a saucer to work (or paint tray, plate, lid, or ramp bowl) so I got a dish with stairs. That is all of the places I would have looked except maybe a craft store...they all seem to carry the same stuff though.

 

[Crazy1]

Got mine at Wal-Mart in the Garden section they have them from really small to fairly big (adult Greek size). Just make sure they are the glazed ones as the others leak. I sink it into the substrate then if I am afraid they may flip I add a few flat stones to the bowl. But a ramp bowl works well as does the new Jacuzzi for torts found at Petco and Petsmart. At least these have all worked for my Greeks. I use the Hermit Crab ramp bowl for the hatchlings.

 

[Seiryu]

Got mine at Wal-Mart in the Garden section they have them from really small to fairly big (adult Greek size). Just make sure they are the glazed ones as the others leak. I sink it into the substrate then if I am afraid they may flip I add a few flat stones to the bowl. But a ramp bowl works well as does the new Jacuzzi for torts found at Petco and Petsmart. At least these have all worked for my Greeks. I use the Hermit Crab ramp bowl for the hatchlings.

Where do you get these flat stones? Just outside or do they sell them? I looked when TerryO suggested to put them around the water bowl on the outside to get a lot of the dirt off before he actually went into the pool. Couldn't find any though. If I could find some I could just get a deeper saucer but put the rocks in.