Experience With Renal Failure

[MARLASINGER]

This might be long winded... My 4 year old female sulcata, Sasquatch stopped eating about 6 weeks ago and became very withdrawn. Normally she is active and will roam around the house for a few hours a day since it's wniter, not terribly cold... but she keeps busy. She no longer walks or bears weight. Long story, but we've been to the vet, urinalysis is normal, no blockage on x-ray but blood work indicates renal failure. (There are no parasites and no other infections going on, her brother is as healthy as can be..... ) I have been giving her subcutaneous injections of saline ( at the vets instruction) to keep her hydrated along with the usual soaks etc.... and yet her lab works is looking worse.

The vet has mentioned we could do a feeding tube and try some medications, in spite of no infections, honestly, I was in such a state when I got this news, I don't remember the names of meds.... this means anesthesia and all those risks, just to keep her holding on with no real answers and the hope that something will work.

The nearest tortoise specialist she tells me is in Houston....

so, big questions are...

1. Does anyone have experience with renal failure in a tortoise? Is it possible to reverse without being left with permanent kidney damage/ disease?

2. She was hatched with asymmetrical scutes.... could this be an indication of poor health from the start, maybe an indicator of chronic metabolic issues from the start? ( she has more pyramiding than her brother... his is minimal...and they've been raised together since day , same diet, supplements, etc)

I'm really devastated, she's always been such a sweetie so any in put would be helpful. I don't want to put her through hell for no reason but I'm not sure it's time to let go.

 

[wellington]

So sorry to hear this. @Yvonne G has a lot of experience rehabbing torts, she might be able to shed some light. Good luck, keep us informed.
@tortadise may also have some info for you

 

[Maggie Cummings]

I have no advice for you but we have @deadheadvet....I'm sure he'll have some comment.....good luck. I just lost my Bob and it's absolutely horrible.

 

[sibi]

Does she drink water on her own in the past and now? If she never drank on her own and relied on soaks to be hydrated, that could be part of the problem. I think you need to take your tort to Huston so that the real specialists can work with her. They will put her on a feeding tube and keep her hydrated. This will be expensive if she stays in the hospital. I had one rescue who had this done, and she did have MBD, which didn't help. She didn't have renal failure, but she was critical. She stopped eating for a couple of weeks and she just looked, to me, like she was dying. I rushed her to the best hospital in Florida (University of Florida Vet. Hosp.), a 6 hours drive. She had a blockage and had always had digestive problems, even til this day. That was 1 1/2 years ago.

It's possible that if they get her hydrated for an extended period of time, her kidneys can start working better, and she may not need to be on the feeding tube for long. Now, in the hospital, the specialist will probably want to get an MRI of her kidneys. And, it's very possible that they can start to function like they should after a while. But, know this, torts system works s l o w...and, it may takes weeks before you'll know if the treatments are working. I sure hope she gets better. Keep us posted.

These animals are very resilience. I believe she may have only one kidney that's bad, but if one kidney can be saved, she could survive this.

 

[MARLASINGER]

I have no advice for you but we have @deadheadvet....I'm sure he'll have some comment.....good luck. I just lost my Bob and it's absolutely horrible.

So sorry..... it's really rough.

 

[MARLASINGER]

Does she drink water on her own in the past and now? If she never drank on her own and relied on soaks to be hydrated, that could be part of the problem. I think you need to take your tort to Huston so that the real specialists can work with her. They will put her on a feeding tube and keep her hydrated. This will be expensive if she stays in the hospital. I had one rescue who had this done, and she did have MBD, which didn't help. She didn't have renal failure, but she was critical. She stopped eating for a couple of weeks and she just looked, to me, like she was dying. I rushed her to the best hospital in Florida (University of Florida Vet. Hosp.), a 6 hours drive. She had a blockage and had always had digestive problems, even til this day. That was 1 1/2 years ago.

It's possible that if they get her hydrated for an extended period of time, her kidneys can start working better, and she may not need to be on the feeding tube for long. Now, in the hospital, the specialist will probably want to get an MRI of her kidneys. And, it's very possible that they can start to function like they should after a while. But, know this, torts system works s l o w...and, it may takes weeks before you'll know if the treatments are working. I sure hope she gets better. Keep us posted.

These animals are very resilience. I believe she may have only one kidney that's bad, but if one kidney can be saved, she could survive this.

She used to eat and drink pretty well and had great bm's..... I think we're going to do the feeding tube here in Dallas next week. Every once in a blue moon she'll take a sip of water when soaking. but, really it's all injected these days. The doc is willing to let her stay with me as I have ample experience with human medical things... so that's kind of a perk and she trusts that we are doing all of the right things in the home..

I was wondering about mri as an alternative to ultrasound, but was unsure of how it would affect hearing etc.

Thanks for the encouragement. I feel some better and a little more informed from someone that's been there.

 

[tortadise]

Well renal failure is unfortunately a very grave diagnosis for Chelonian. However I would have to say what conditions have been different from the last few months to the prior 4 years. Blood work and panel tests can vary greatly in Chelonian. One thing many vets don't consider is that they're cold blooded and have a much different testing method than mammals that at warm blooded. Now I'm not contesting you bet at all. But a spike or drop in white,red or platelets doesn't nessicarily mean renal failure without comparison to prior or comparative analysis to previous tests or like of. A typical renal issue would swelling of the neck and or limbs(hind or frontal). This time of year the ambient humidity drops greatly. With the warm winter we have had in south it can be extremely detrimental to reptiles and rapidly dehydrate to a point of kidney, liver or renal decline but not nessicarily failure. Female failure is extremely bad. Did the vet do an ultrasound of the liver/kidneys to see the function or take a urine sample? Again I'm not bashing or questioning the vet at all. Just allowing other possible issues at hand to hopefully remedy a diagnosis. Fluids are good indeed. But stress is extremely detrimental on the physic and recovery of animals, especially reptiles. I'd suggest to forgo the tube as those are quite stressful and any animal with lab work not seeking a medium of perfect to acceptable and or stressed should be placed under any procedure like a tube. My opinion of course. So let us know the conditions he(she) is in and has been in and food consumption, activity, UV exposure, temperatures etc...

 

[sibi]

Well renal failure is unfortunately a very grave diagnosis for Chelonian. However I would have to say what conditions have been different from the last few months to the prior 4 years. Blood work and panel tests can vary greatly in Chelonian. One thing many vets don't consider is that they're cold blooded and have a much different testing method than mammals that at warm blooded. Now I'm not contesting you bet at all. But a spike or drop in white,red or platelets doesn't nessicarily mean renal failure without comparison to prior or comparative analysis to previous tests or like of. A typical renal issue would swelling of the neck and or limbs(hind or frontal). This time of year the ambient humidity drops greatly. With the warm winter we have had in south it can be extremely detrimental to reptiles and rapidly dehydrate to a point of kidney, liver or renal decline but not nessicarily failure. Female failure is extremely bad. Did the vet do an ultrasound of the liver/kidneys to see the function or take a urine sample? Again I'm not bashing or questioning the vet at all. Just allowing other possible issues at hand to hopefully remedy a diagnosis. Fluids are good indeed. But stress is extremely detrimental on the physic and recovery of animals, especially reptiles. I'd suggest to forgo the tube as those are quite stressful and any animal with lab work not seeking a medium of perfect to acceptable and or stressed should be placed under any procedure like a tube. My opinion of course. So let us know the conditions he(she) is in and has been in and food consumption, activity, UV exposure, temperatures etc...

This is why I strongly suggest that she go where the real specialist are in Houston. IF there is a renal failure, it will talk a while, but if not properly diagnosed and treated, she can die. Yes, the feeding tube is stressful for the animal, but she is out cold when they perform the procedure. If the animal is lethargic, she won't fight the feeding tube. Only when they are getting better and trying to eat and drink on their own, will they fight to remove it themselves. That's what mine did. This is a serious condition whether or not it's renal failure. Fluids are of the utmost importance right now. I wouldn't worry about the noise of the MRI. You're fighting for her life right now. My girl had no hearing problems. In fact, she shouldn't even be alive if it weren't for my constant care.

 

[Yvonne G]

My first thought was, "Hm-m-m the two tortoises together issue again." I know you said they've lived together all their lives, however, now is the time to separate them. Plus, allowing them to free roam the house is a terrible idea. Some things don't show up on X-ray. There's no telling what this tortoise may have gotten into on the floor of the house.

Set her up in her own, personal, dedicated habitat. Make it big enough for a tortoise of her size. Take her outside in the sun on sunny days (again, in her own safe, escape proof yard). Start the baby food soaks.

That's all I know to tell you. Good luck, and I hope you see improvement.

 

[deadheadvet]

Lots of variables that are unknown at this point.
Firstly, review of the lab work may explain failure vs something else. Causes of renal failure are many, nutritional, parasitic, viral, bacterial, toxin, etc.
Best advice is to get a feeding tube put in to correct dehydration and any electrolyte disturbance. Than further diag. are needed to r/o viral, bacterial, parasitic. You will have to decide what your financial limit is. Not a situation you want to be in unfortunately. Good Luck.

 

[Pearly]

I hope all gets better without invasive, expensive and time consuming interventions and she gets better with soaks, sunshine in stress free environment

 

[MARLASINGER]

Well renal failure is unfortunately a very grave diagnosis for Chelonian. However I would have to say what conditions have been different from the last few months to the prior 4 years. Blood work and panel tests can vary greatly in Chelonian. One thing many vets don't consider is that they're cold blooded and have a much different testing method than mammals that at warm blooded. Now I'm not contesting you bet at all. But a spike or drop in white,red or platelets doesn't nessicarily mean renal failure without comparison to prior or comparative analysis to previous tests or like of. A typical renal issue would swelling of the neck and or limbs(hind or frontal). This time of year the ambient humidity drops greatly. With the warm winter we have had in south it can be extremely detrimental to reptiles and rapidly dehydrate to a point of kidney, liver or renal decline but not nessicarily failure. Female failure is extremely bad. Did the vet do an ultrasound of the liver/kidneys to see the function or take a urine sample? Again I'm not bashing or questioning the vet at all. Just allowing other possible issues at hand to hopefully remedy a diagnosis. Fluids are good indeed. But stress is extremely detrimental on the physic and recovery of animals, especially reptiles. I'd suggest to forgo the tube as those are quite stressful and any animal with lab work not seeking a medium of perfect to acceptable and or stressed should be placed under any procedure like a tube. My opinion of course. So let us know the conditions he(she) is in and has been in and food consumption, activity, UV exposure, temperatures etc...

The vet hasn't done an ultrasound on the tortoise yet... she is mainly watching the blood work. She is the first to say that we have to take the lab work with a grain of salt. She is consulting a tortoise specialist in Houston, and we may well end up going there ...

The vet was unable to get a urine sample but drew fluids ... I'm not sure how. The tortoise has no swelling but has had a major weight loss.

She's not eaten since we began this in Mid January, she was picky prior to stopping eating at all. She spends the majority of her time on the tortoise table, 78 -85 degrees, although I have no idea on humidity, which I need to go get the barometer.......she was also active at meal times, when cruising around the house she'd go sit in front of the fridge when hungry and then finding her way to either her favorite corner or basking light, she stopped having interest in food and even the basking light and started going straight to her corner....she doesn't try to stand at this point.

No changes in lights, has had UV A and B lights and a basking light, since day one. Calcium power on food, lettuce, sweet potatoes, fruits, veggies, carrots and some vitamin A oil for good measure,

Her brother has no problems. Same environment and diet... no parasites either..

 

[MARLASINGER]

My first thought was, "Hm-m-m the two tortoises together issue again." I know you said they've lived together all their lives, however, now is the time to separate them. Plus, allowing them to free roam the house is a terrible idea. Some things don't show up on X-ray. There's no telling what this tortoise may have gotten into on the floor of the house.

Set her up in her own, personal, dedicated habitat. Make it big enough for a tortoise of her size. Take her outside in the sun on sunny days (again, in her own safe, escape proof yard). Start the baby food soaks.

That's all I know to tell you. Good luck, and I hope you see improvement.

we've separated them per the vet.... and if one of them would be sick from "found items" on the floor, it'd be him. she like about 3 or 4 foods and is reluctant to sample anything new whereas he is a freaking dinosaur and will try anything. . we've ruled out toxins and parasites etc. But. yes, I know you're probably getting at bits of plastic debris or something...

thanks.

 

[dmmj]

since it's been diagnosed with renal failure does the vet give any prognosis of recovery or are they waiting to find out what exactly going on?

 

[MARLASINGER]

since it's been diagnosed with renal failure does the vet give any prognosis of recovery or are they waiting to find out what exactly going on?

The vet wants to see what's going on, she doesn't want to consider a prognosis at this point, just taking it a day at a time.

 

[Meganolvt]

Remember that acute renal failure can sometimes be reversed with fluids, meds, nutrition- depending on the cause. Chronic failure is very bad and they can usually only be supported until they can't go on any longer. Unfortunately it takes a long time and the kidneys have to be quite damaged for it to show up on blood work if it is chronic. If you knew she ate something nephrotoxic, for example, it may be reversed with care. If it is something congenital, and therefore chronic, the prognosis is much worse. Go with the feeding tube, nutrition goes a long way in contributing to recovery. Good luck to your sweet baby.

 

[sibi]

The vet wants to see what's going on, she doesn't want to consider a prognosis at this point, just taking it a day at a time.

If I were you, I wouldn't be taking it one day at a time. She's in serious trouble, and even though tortoises' systems are slow, it's been almost a couple of months, if not longer, that she hasn't been herself. I was so diligent with my Baby Runt that I immediately knew when behaviors started to change and she was in trouble. After the first few days of her not eating, she looked like she was dying. Oh, these torts can put up a good ruse. One not noticing could easily overlook the symptoms. But, when my local vet just gave her fluids, and told me we should take it one day at a time, I got in my car and drove 6,hours to Florida University Veterinary Hosp. , the leading specialist in tortoise care in the region. My baby was dying and for two weeks, they couldn't get her to poop. With a feeding tube and a medicine never before tried on any animal or reptile, she was sent home with recommendations for my local vet to euthanize her out of compassion if she didn't improve. A week layer, she passed a load! That was 1 1/2 years ago.

 

[MARLASINGER]

If I were you, I wouldn't be taking it one day at a time. She's in serious trouble, and even though tortoises' systems are slow, it's been almost a couple of months, if not longer, that she hasn't been herself. I was so diligent with my Baby Runt that I immediately knew when behaviors started to change and she was in trouble. After the first few days of her not eating, she looked like she was dying. Oh, these torts can put up a good ruse. One not noticing could easily overlook the symptoms. But, when my local vet just gave her fluids, and told me we should take it one day at a time, I got in my car and drove 6,hours to Florida University Veterinary Hosp. , the leading specialist in tortoise care in the region. My baby was dying and for two weeks, they couldn't get her to poop. With a feeding tube and a medicine never before tried on any animal or reptile, she was sent home with recommendations for my local vet to euthanize her out of compassion if she didn't improve. A week layer, she passed a load! That was 1 1/2 years ago.

I'm so happy that you're in a place in life that you can pick up and travel hundreds of miles to a vet and that you had a happy ending due to your diligence. I don't have that luxury at this point.

 

[sibi]

I'm so happy that you're in a place in life that you can pick up and travel hundreds of miles to a vet and that you had a happy ending due to your diligence. I don't have that luxury at this point.

I'm not in a place in my life that I can just take off. You don't know what sacrifices I had to make. And my tortoise is still alive but it's not a happy ending, nor is she out of danger. This is an never-ending saga that I'll have to live with until one of us dies first. Having said that, I'm sorry that you can't do what I did. I'm sure that if you could, you would; otherwise, you wouldn't have sort out this forum and asks for advice. I have given you the benefit of the doubt, and I wished you had given me the same. If it appeared to you that I was showing more diligence than you, you totally misunderstood me. I was simply stating, "if I were you..." Of course, I'm not you and I don't expect you to be me. I guess what I really wanted to convey was my sense or urgency. I wish your baby the best.