Elongata Egg Fertilization Question

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Pepper.

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Hi to all. I just want to know how old does a male Elongata have to be after he can fertilize eggs?

My friend has a female Elongata which is 12" that has laid eggs twice but had no chance to get a male to fertilize it. Now that I recently got a male, would my 9" male Elongata able to fertilize the female's eggs even if they're size(age) is different?

Thanks in advance. =)
 

TylerStewart

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9" is big enough to "fertilize" her. 12" is a big female. The tricky thing is keeping them below about 100 degrees - a temperature that greatly lowers fertility in a species like that. I've learned the hard way.
 

Pepper.

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Oh okay. Can you give us a short post that will educate us more, because we totally have no experience with this, bear with me. If the female lays eggs, what exactly do we do with the male? Put both parent Elongatas inside one enclosure with the egg with the temperature below 100 degrees? Thanks in advance again.
 

Yvonne G

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Hi Pepper:

Welcome to the forum!! May we know your name and where you are?

Did you give any consideration to a quarantine period? I don't know anything about the Elongata tortoise, but I DO know that once the female lays the already fertilized eggs and covers the nest, she no longer has an interest in them. Likewise with the male...once he has covered the female, his only interest in her would be to breed her again. He could care less about the eggs.

Can we see some pictures? This is not a tortoise that we see much here on the forum.

Here's a link to a care sheet:

http://www.chelonia.org/Articles/elongatacare.htm
 

Pepper.

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My name's Zik and I'm from Philippines.
I can upload the pictures of the male some time tomorrow. We haven't undergo quarantine period yet but me and my friend are confident enough with our trust to each other that each other's torts are in healthy condition. I've read somewhere in Google that female Elongatas lay unfertilized eggs which the male has to fertilize still. Not sure though since this is our first time to have a male for my friend's female.
 

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No, that's a bit of mis-information. The male covers the female and fertilizes her eggs while they're still inside her. The eggs she deposits in the nest hole are already fertilized.
 

Pepper.

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emysemys said:
No, that's a bit of mis-information. The male covers the female and fertilizes her eggs while they're still inside her. The eggs she deposits in the nest hole are already fertilized.

That makes a lot of sense. So the male needs to make love with the female before the female lays the eggs, so once the female lay another batch of eggs before the male having made love with her, those eggs are a waste again, did I get the concept correctly?
 

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Almost. A female tortoise can store sperm. So, she can lay fertilized eggs and still have some sperm left over to fertilize more eggs later in the season. In fact, she might be able to store sperm for a year or so.
 

Pepper.

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Oh okay. We'll join our torts today and hope that the male mates the female so my male tort's sperm would be stored and ready to fertilize the future eggs that the female would lay.
 

Pepper.

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We're about to join my 9" male Elongata with my friend's 12" female Elongata into my outdoor enclosure for breeding.

breedingproject.jpg


My Male Elongata 'Powder'
33836_1799414070202_1385295287_32004738_4421577_n.jpg


We're going to join them together under that outdoor enclosure for quite some time to make sure the male provides enough sperm to the female to store inside her. Then once the female lays fertile eggs in the future, we're going to separate the male and leave the female alone in that outdoor enclosure with the laid eggs.

This is actually just an idea I had in mind on how to mate our torts, but not exactly sure if we got it all correctly on how to breed them properly. Please do correct me and give me additional advices and tips if needed so we will be fully armed and prepared once we join them together very very soon. We are newbies in tort breeding, all suggestions, corrections, additions are very welcome and will be very appreciated. Thank you in advance.
 

Yvonne G

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Hi Zik:

I'm really out of my element here because I don't have Elongated tortoises. I have hatched out quite a few eggs, but I'm really not the expert that you seem to think I am. I wish others had come into this conversation and given their opinions.

I forwarded the thread to our resident expert, EgyptianDan (Danny) and he will come on here and give you some good advice.

Let's wait to see what he says, but in my opinion, I would think you should take up the eggs and place them into an incubator.

But you're right to remove the male after breeding. He would just want to continue harassing the female and they might disturb the nest.
 

Pepper.

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Oh okay Emy. I still have the impression that you have the willingness to help fellow tortoise lovers/keepers. We're going to join the 2 torts together in less than 24 hours from now since the female last laid unfertile eggs just somewhere around December 2010, and the female has been laying eggs every 2-4 months(we're not accurately sure if it's 2-3 or 3-4 months).

That's why we want to join both torts so the next clutch of eggs would be successful, hopefully. For now, I'll patiently wait for Mod Danny to educate and help me be equipped to be successful with the breeding. Thanks again Emys.
 

Pepper.

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Going to admit some honest mistakes and correct the size details after seeing both torts actually beside each other. The female is much larger than the male.

Male Elongata (8")
Female Elongata (13-14")

We already joined them together earlier today under my outdoor enclosure. This is what happened after 5 minutes.
Newly Joined Elongated Tortoises
 

Yvonne G

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Hi Zik:

I was reading another thread about elongated tortoises and the poster said that when they are ready to breed they develop a pink color around their nose and mouth. And they showed pictures.

One thing jumped out at me when viewing your video. They should have some sort of "dirt" substrate, not dried grass. The male is having a hard time getting traction. He has to be "mean" to the female to sort of beat her into submission, and he's not able to get any traction to really ram her. Also, when she's ready to lay her eggs, she's going to want to dig a nice hole in the dirt. If she can't find a deep enough area for digging, she may just hold onto the eggs and might become egg bound.

I asked a couple different folks to read this thread and see if they can help you, but I guess they're all out of town. I wonder if there's a big reptile show going on someplace where everyone has gone to. I know that Danny hasn't been on for a couple days.
 

Pepper.

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-Emy: I see. Powder has a pinkish nose, not sure if it's enough to be qualified for breeding/mating. He has a more pinkish nose in person than in the picture below.

34795_1799408350059_1385295287_32004719_2408274_n.jpg


About the substrate, I kinda noticed that he's having a hard time properly ramming the female. I am planning to change the substrate into a soil-type substrate which is coco peat. Thank you for these useful information Emy. Fortunately after one hour of courtship, I heard weird noises coming from their enclosure, my eyes grew wide as I watch them mate.
Elongated Tortoises Actual Mating
I think the mating/breeding of the 2 torts are under control, my only dilemma right now is how to take care of the eggs after she lays them in a couple of months, I completely have no knowledge on what to do after she makes a nest and lays the eggs on the soil-substrate(coco peat).
 

Yvonne G

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Well, hopefully one of the people I've contacted for you will get home and read your thread and give you some help. We'll just have to wait for them to answer.
 

HLogic

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Hi Zik and welcome to the forum!

I apologize for not responding sooner but work, my torts and the crazy weather we have been having have kept me busier than usual.

It seems you have taken the first step and the male is more than happy to do his part! I checked the weather in several areas of the Philippines, not knowing exactly where you are, and it seems you have perfect breeding season weather. This is a good thing as it is one of the key elements in triggering the female's readiness to breed and egg production.

I assume the female is eating well and is being provided a varied diet of fruit and vegetables, including mushrooms. This is critical to maintaining her health during the breeding and egg-laying process. If not, please refrain from breeding them until she has acclimated to her new surrounding and is well nourished.

I would suggest these general steps with regard to the breeding process...

1. Introduce the male into the female's enclosure in the early evening.
2. Remove the male the following day after they have hidden for the daylight hours.
3. Skip a day, repeat starting with step 1.

The reason to separate them and skip a day is to reduce the possibility of stress. As I'm sure you've seen by now, any time the male is active means it is time for him to breed. The constant 'attention' has a tendancy to stress the female not to mention make for a rather tired male. Separating them will allow them to rest and regain their strength, spread the stress and give the female a chance to enter a state of readiness to breed, if she isn't currently. In essence, you are duplicating her ability in the wild to escape his advances if she is not ready.

After a week or so of the above steps, separate them for a week and then repeat the process. Keep an eye on them when they are initially put together. If the female is not receptive and continuously avoids the male's advances, separate them. If the only activity is ramming each other and there is no mounting activity, separate them. The trick is to allow sufficient time for successful breeding to occur but not to the extent that either is severely stressed.

When you have seen or suspect that breeding has occurred a few (2 - 5) times, separate them until the female lays the eggs. In any case, separate them and keep them separated about 30 days before you expect her to lay eggs again. This will give her time to relax, eat and gain the energy needed to produce the eggs.

Be certain to provide ample food and water during the breeding period and afterwards. Also supplement the female's diet with additional calcium. The easiest way is to place a dried cuttlebone in the enclosure with the female. If she does not nibble it voluntarily, you can crush it into a powder and lightly sprinkle (as you would season your food with pepper) some onto her food. You can also use dried chicken eggshell or a commercial calcium supplement for reptiles or birds.

I'll post a follow-up with information about nesting, egg laying, egg handling and incubation the next time I have a chance - hopefully Sunday.

Good luck! It is always great to see someone else interested in these uncommonly kept tortoises.
 

Pepper.

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emysemys said:
Well, hopefully one of the people I've contacted for you will get home and read your thread and give you some help. We'll just have to wait for them to answer.

Emys, thank you very much for doing this. I appreciate it a lot.

HLogic said:
Hi Zik and welcome to the forum!

I apologize for not responding sooner but work, my torts and the crazy weather we have been having have kept me busier than usual.

It seems you have taken the first step and the male is more than happy to do his part! I checked the weather in several areas of the Philippines, not knowing exactly where you are, and it seems you have perfect breeding season weather. This is a good thing as it is one of the key elements in triggering the female's readiness to breed and egg production.

I assume the female is eating well and is being provided a varied diet of fruit and vegetables, including mushrooms. This is critical to maintaining her health during the breeding and egg-laying process. If not, please refrain from breeding them until she has acclimated to her new surrounding and is well nourished.

I would suggest these general steps with regard to the breeding process...

1. Introduce the male into the female's enclosure in the early evening.
2. Remove the male the following day after they have hidden for the daylight hours.
3. Skip a day, repeat starting with step 1.

The reason to separate them and skip a day is to reduce the possibility of stress. As I'm sure you've seen by now, any time the male is active means it is time for him to breed. The constant 'attention' has a tendancy to stress the female not to mention make for a rather tired male. Separating them will allow them to rest and regain their strength, spread the stress and give the female a chance to enter a state of readiness to breed, if she isn't currently. In essence, you are duplicating her ability in the wild to escape his advances if she is not ready.

After a week or so of the above steps, separate them for a week and then repeat the process. Keep an eye on them when they are initially put together. If the female is not receptive and continuously avoids the male's advances, separate them. If the only activity is ramming each other and there is no mounting activity, separate them. The trick is to allow sufficient time for successful breeding to occur but not to the extent that either is severely stressed.

When you have seen or suspect that breeding has occurred a few (2 - 5) times, separate them until the female lays the eggs. In any case, separate them and keep them separated about 30 days before you expect her to lay eggs again. This will give her time to relax, eat and gain the energy needed to produce the eggs.

Be certain to provide ample food and water during the breeding period and afterwards. Also supplement the female's diet with additional calcium. The easiest way is to place a dried cuttlebone in the enclosure with the female. If she does not nibble it voluntarily, you can crush it into a powder and lightly sprinkle (as you would season your food with pepper) some onto her food. You can also use dried chicken eggshell or a commercial calcium supplement for reptiles or birds.

I'll post a follow-up with information about nesting, egg laying, egg handling and incubation the next time I have a chance - hopefully Sunday.

Good luck! It is always great to see someone else interested in these uncommonly kept tortoises.

Thank you HLogic. Every word you said makes perfect sense. Especially the parts where you explained every possibilities of occurring stress. I will do the 3-step tip that you've suggested. Regarding the female, she eats a LOT of dark leafy greens such(broccoli & water spinach) and hibiscus. Will try to feed apple, watermelon occasionally. She likes to nibble on the cuttle bone from time to time unlike my male which I've never seen him nibbling it. For now, we will separate the male in a big enough tupperware/box and leave the female in the outdoor enclosure and only join them every other day. Btw, when you say early evening, I'm thinking this is around 5:00-6:00pm am I correct? Thank you so much for your useful response HLogic. Looking forward to your tips on how to take care of the eggs and such since we have no clue how to handle that situation. God bless you.
 

HLogic

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Zik, as I am sure you know, they are active in the evenings and mornings. Introduce him to her enclosure about an hour or so before their normal activity period in the evening - maybe 2 - 3 hours before sunset. Remove him after their morning activity period and they have gone into the hide for the day.
 

Pepper.

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HLogic said:
Zik, as I am sure you know, they are active in the evenings and mornings. Introduce him to her enclosure about an hour or so before their normal activity period in the evening - maybe 2 - 3 hours before sunset. Remove him after their morning activity period and they have gone into the hide for the day.

Okay HL, I'll introduce my male around 3:00-3:30PM, sunset here right now is around 5:45-6:00PM. If this is the planned schedule HL, what time should I remove/separate the male from the female's enclo? Sorry got confused with the last part.
 
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