Does my 10-month old need more space?

[scarlettedenrose]

I've had my young Hermann's tortoise since the 1st Feb 2020 and overall it's been pretty smooth sailing! My main issue is she's become obsessed with scratching/trying to climb the walls of her tort table and I really don't want her flipping over all the time, which happens occasionally. She'll have episodes where for a few days at a time she'll try to climb out endlessly all day, but now its been over a week and she still wants out. I'd take her outside but I live in Yorkshire and its October! Plus I'm usually away at college all day. I was told by people on here a few months back that her table was big enough for a youngster for now, so I didn't think it was much of a problem yet. She's not eating and just wants to get out all the time... I've tried putting things in the corners but this just makes it worse as she climbs these and falls too. I'll make a little walk around enclosure on the floor of the room she's in to see if she wants to explore, but she'll try to get out of this too. I can't let her just wander around the house/room because we have cats and there are lots of things she could choke on or easily get lost. It's a bit on a dilemma!
Her temps are normal (around 30 degrees in the basking spot and room temp everywhere else), she has lots of things to climb over in the middle/break up the line of sight/hiding or burrowing spots - so I'm at a loss. Is space the issue?
The substrate I was recommended when I got her is awful (lots of tiny grains) and I've finally been able to order a better one (coco coir block). Hopefully this could make a difference if she's too dry?
Could I take her outside for a while at 11-13 degrees celsius? She's still a baby really.

I've attached some photos of her table - I know the substrate is awful, it's getting replaced soon! The places she climbs the most are the two opposite corners with the big rocks and the pink plant (near the heat lamp worryingly) and the plastic screen - this is covered up to make it opaque but she still goes for it!

Anyway, any recommendation I'd be grateful for. Thanks a lot!

 

[crimson_lotus]

what kind of light are you using? what are temps? and yeah it looks pretty dry in there so the coco coir with some water will be a nice addition.

the size looks ok for now but eventually it will need to be larger.

just a personal observation as well, my tortoise used to try and escape often in her smaller enclosure but once I upgraded she stopped flipping over. she has double the space now and the upgrade was totally necessary as she has grown quite a bit in the past few years and is still growing

 

[Maggie3fan]

I have been told that taking a tortoise out of his pen/habitat/yard or whatever shows him that there is life after tort table and once shown, they will continue to try to get there. I keep Sulcata, I have a beast who bent a chain link gate trying to get to the other side, and she's small. In a table I would cap off the corners, and empty the corner of rocks etc. maybe you need a second level for her to explore. Her table is kinda small for her I'm thinking. And make sure any heat source is not where she would fall over in. I recently lost a box turtle who was on her back under a 100 watt CHE

 

[scarlettedenrose]

what kind of light are you using? what are temps? and yeah it looks pretty dry in there so the coco coir with some water will be a nice addition.

the size looks ok for now but eventually it will need to be larger.

just a personal observation as well, my tortoise used to try and escape often in her smaller enclosure but once I upgraded she stopped flipping over. she has double the space now and the upgrade was totally necessary as she has grown quite a bit in the past few years and is still growing

The light fittings came with the table, but I get the HabiStat 100W basking lamp and a UV bulb (annoying I’ve lost the box so not sure what brand) which is an overhead bulb not a strip one... not ideal but I’m trying to find a better one - I’ve heard good things about the Arcadia D3 basking heat & UV one.
Her temps are around 32 degrees C under the lamp and about 20 on the cooler side, though it may be cooler than that now its getting on to winter.

The coco coir came last night so I’ve changed it over! It looks and feels so much better (photos attached). It stills looks soily/sandy in the picture but its very soft and easier for her to walk on because it doesn’t move away like sand does. It holds moisture really well which ia what I was after! It was a nightmare to soak and I’m only worried that the leftover moisture in it will make it mouldy under the surface? I suppose we’ll see.
I’ve mixed it in with the leftover clean substrate so not to waste it and its worked quite well! Very pleased with the result and a weight lifted.

Based on your experience, it does sound like a space problem! That’s unfortunate since I’m going to uni next year, I was hoping this one would be ok while she’s small until I can get a place of my own with more room for her. Even if this would be enough room for another tort, she obviously prefers more.
Thank you for your help!

 

[scarlettedenrose]

I have been told that taking a tortoise out of his pen/habitat/yard or whatever shows him that there is life after tort table and once shown, they will continue to try to get there. I keep Sulcata, I have a beast who bent a chain link gate trying to get to the other side, and she's small. In a table I would cap off the corners, and empty the corner of rocks etc. maybe you need a second level for her to explore. Her table is kinda small for her I'm thinking. And make sure any heat source is not where she would fall over in. I recently lost a box turtle who was on her back under a 100 watt CHE

Ok, I’ll rearrange the corners and see if I can tort-proof them. She’s very opportunistic, I think if she wanted to get through a gate she would too!
It’s an interesting idea about the second level.. I wonder if I can make something safe like that or buy. If she seems determind to see more of outside then it would definitely be something to invest in.
Thanks!

 

[Tom]

You definitely need a much larger enclosure ASAP.

Add in much more coir, keep it damp, not wet, and hand pack it down firmly. Its not good to leave it "fluffy".

Your temps are too cool. It should be 36-37 directly under the bulb. 20C is fine over night, but it should be warmer during the "heat of the day".

The only enclosure you should be using other than a large indoor one, is a large outdoor one when the weather is suitable. You are right to not let the tortoise roam on the floor of the house/flat.

MVBs cause pyramiding, stop producing UV prematurely and can have a host of other problems. Here is better lighting info:

There are four elements to heating and lighting:

1. Basking bulb. I use 65 watt incandescent floods from the hardware store. Some people will need bigger, or smaller wattage bulbs. Let your thermometer be your guide. I run them on a timer for about 12 hours and adjust the height to get the correct basking temp under them. I also like to use a flat rock of some sort directly under the bulb.
2. Ambient heat maintenance. I use ceramic heating elements or radiant heat panels set on thermostats to maintain ambient above 80 degrees day and night for tropical species. You'd only need day heat for a temperate species like Testudo or DT.
3. Light. I use LEDs for this purpose. Something in the 5000-6500K color range will look the best. Most bulbs at the store are in the 2500K range and they look yellowish. Strip or screw-in bulb types are both fine.
4. UV. If you can get your tortoise outside for an hour 2 or 3 times a week, you won't need indoor UV. If you want it anyway, get one of the newer HO type fluorescent tubes. Which type will depend on mounting height. 5.0 bulbs make almost no UV. You need a meter to check this: https://www.solarmeter.com/model65.html

All of this and more is explained here:

The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...

tortoiseforum.org

 

[scarlettedenrose]

You definitely need a much larger enclosure ASAP.

Add in much more coir, keep it damp, not wet, and hand pack it down firmly. Its not good to leave it "fluffy".

Your temps are too cool. It should be 36-37 directly under the bulb. 20C is fine over night, but it should be warmer during the "heat of the day".

The only enclosure you should be using other than a large indoor one, is a large outdoor one when the weather is suitable. You are right to not let the tortoise roam on the floor of the house/flat.

MVBs cause pyramiding, stop producing UV prematurely and can have a host of other problems. Here is better lighting info:

There are four elements to heating and lighting:

1. Basking bulb. I use 65 watt incandescent floods from the hardware store. Some people will need bigger, or smaller wattage bulbs. Let your thermometer be your guide. I run them on a timer for about 12 hours and adjust the height to get the correct basking temp under them. I also like to use a flat rock of some sort directly under the bulb.
2. Ambient heat maintenance. I use ceramic heating elements or radiant heat panels set on thermostats to maintain ambient above 80 degrees day and night for tropical species. You'd only need day heat for a temperate species like Testudo or DT.
3. Light. I use LEDs for this purpose. Something in the 5000-6500K color range will look the best. Most bulbs at the store are in the 2500K range and they look yellowish. Strip or screw-in bulb types are both fine.
4. UV. If you can get your tortoise outside for an hour 2 or 3 times a week, you won't need indoor UV. If you want it anyway, get one of the newer HO type fluorescent tubes. Which type will depend on mounting height. 5.0 bulbs make almost no UV. You need a meter to check this: https://www.solarmeter.com/model65.html

All of this and more is explained here:

The Best Way To Raise Any Temperate Species Of Tortoise

I chose the title of this care sheet very carefully. Are there other ways to raise babies and care for adults? Yes. Yes there are, but those ways are not as good. What follows is the BEST way, according to 30 years of research and experimentation with hundreds of babies of many species. What is...

tortoiseforum.org

Thank you for this. It is worrying, but definitely needed.
I'm worried about the space element, because I won't be able to buy a new indoor enclosure or build one any time soon. I think the best I can do is maximise her roaming time and space outdoors. My only problem is the temperature - at the moment it is averaging about 11 degrees Celsius outside, and it will get much colder come winter. Is it possible to have her outside in those temperatures? Should I try to hibernate her?
If I get her outside more at least I know she is getting some natural UV.
I will put a large rock under the lamp - I find this makes the area hotter. I have another brick of coir I can put in and this should raise the surface closer to the bulb as well.

I have printed off a copy of that information, I'll read through it and see what else can be improved.
Thank you!

 

[Pastel Tortie]

Have you seen this thread by @JoesMum about keeping tortoises in the UK?

Outdoor Accommodation in a Colder (UK) Climate

Background We live in the UK and have had our Greek, Joe, a male Testudo Graeca Graeca (TGG), since 1970. He is full grown, weighing in at around 3.2kg (7lb) and measures just over 26cm (10”) Straight Carapace Length (SCL) He would have been wild caught, so was not a baby when he joined the...

www.tortoiseforum.org

I lived in Leeds for a couple years. I really enjoyed it. Still miss it sometimes. ?