Do worms and nematodes suggest my tortoise is wild caught?

Ubercat

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Hi everyone, I rescued my 2.5 year old Horsefieldii about 3 weeks ago, and today I learned from the lab that he has worms and nematodes, from the fecal samples I provided. I’ve read that this is more common when the tortoise is wild caught. I thought we had stopped importing this vulnerable species - I live in the UK.

For context - I believe the people who sold him to the people I got him from had two other tortoises. The latest people had only him and had him in the garden quite often. He wasn’t in very good health when I got him, but he’s improving.

Any thoughts, guys?
 

ZEROPILOT

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Some pathogens can be passed by eating things in the garden. Like snails.
Others can be passed by eating the poop of another infested tortoise or drinking water with poop in it, etc.
I've encountered many tortoises with worm infestations and none of them were wild caught.
But it certainly COULD be an indication of wild caught
 

Ubercat

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Some pathogens can be passed by eating things in the garden. Like snails.
Others can be passed by eating the poop of another infested tortoise or drinking water with poop in it, etc.
I've encountered many tortoises with worm infestations and none of them were wild caught.
But it certainly COULD be an indication of wild caught

OK, so I don’t need to be toooo horrified!
 

zovick

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OK, so I don’t need to be toooo horrified!
As Zeropilot said, worms and nematodes are everywhere and do not necessarily indicate that the tortoise was wild caught. They are in the environment and are opportunistic, more severely infesting animals which are under stressful; conditions whether they are captive bred or wild caught. Since you say the tortoise was not in great condition when you got it, there is just as good a chance that the infestation(s) occurred while the tortoise was in captivity as that it possibly occurred in the wild.
 

zovick

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Hi everyone, I rescued my 2.5 year old Horsefieldii about 3 weeks ago, and today I learned from the lab that he has worms and nematodes, from the fecal samples I provided. I’ve read that this is more common when the tortoise is wild caught. I thought we had stopped importing this vulnerable species - I live in the UK.

For context - I believe the people who sold him to the people I got him from had two other tortoises. The latest people had only him and had him in the garden quite often. He wasn’t in very good health when I got him, but he’s improving.

Any thoughts, guys?
Another point comes to mind. Namely if you truly know the tortoise's exact age, wouldn't that indicate that its hatch date was known? And if the hatch date is known (rather than guesstimated by the original buyer or stated by a seller who did not breed it), it would not be wild caught.

That being said, however, there are MANY posts on this web site where people have been told by sellers that they were buying a baby Horsefield's (Russian) Tortoise, yet when they post pictures of their animals, the tortoises are in fact several years and often even more than that old.

If you post a photo or two of your tortoise, we could possibly help to determine if that was the case with the tortoise you have or not. It should be relatively easy to tell a 2.5 year old from a much older one. That would be another clue as to its actual origin.
 

Blackdog1714

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If you bought it at a Pet Store then yes it may be an adult! Irregardless of what they tell you
 

zovick

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If you bought it at a Pet Store then yes it may be an adult! Irregardless of what they tell you
You are correct, but I don't know if what the original seller said about the animal and its age can even be determined at this point. The party posting this thread did not buy the tortoise originally. In the first post, it indicates this person posting now is at least the third owner of the tortoise. Two other parties (at the minimum) have owned it prior to this person.
 
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Minority2

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Hi everyone, I rescued my 2.5 year old Horsefieldii about 3 weeks ago, and today I learned from the lab that he has worms and nematodes, from the fecal samples I provided. I’ve read that this is more common when the tortoise is wild caught. I thought we had stopped importing this vulnerable species - I live in the UK.

For context - I believe the people who sold him to the people I got him from had two other tortoises. The latest people had only him and had him in the garden quite often. He wasn’t in very good health when I got him, but he’s improving.

Any thoughts, guys?

From what I remember, during written conversations with other UK members years ago is that there are still some importation slipping through the cracks here and there but reputable shops usually are required to have valid paperwork proving that their specimens were purchased from licensed breeders in the UK. The problem with this, however, is that the majority of licensed breeders in the UK at least, are still using the same outdated practices us members in the forum campaign against because it's not only unsafe but it also lowers the survival rate of tortoise hatchlings while in the hands of first-time/new tortoise owners.

Even the largest breeder in UK is still pumping and dumping dry started babies off to pet shops the last time I checked. I remember seeing a lot of discrepancies in their main website as well.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/...57894/Meet-UK-s-largest-tortoise-breeder.html

So while you'll be able to purchase a captive-bred tortoise, the quality of care and process of starting them dry can and will still cause those tortoises to have problems in the future because their bodily organs may not be as fully developed as a well started baby's would.
 

Ubercat

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Another point comes to mind. Namely if you truly know the tortoise's exact age, wouldn't that indicate that its hatch date was known? And if the hatch date is known (rather than guesstimated by the original buyer or stated by a seller who did not breed it), it would not be wild caught.

Thank you!!!

That being said, however, there are MANY posts on this web site where people have been told by sellers that they were buying a baby Horsefield's (Russian) Tortoise, yet when they post pictures of their animals, the tortoises are in fact several years and often even more than that old.

If you post a photo or two of your tortoise, we could possibly help to determine if that was the case with the tortoise you have or not. It should be relatively easy to tell a 2.5 year old from a much older one. That would be another clue as to its actual origin.
 

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Ubercat

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From what I remember, during written conversations with other UK members years ago is that there are still some importation slipping through the cracks here and there but reputable shops usually are required to have valid paperwork proving that their specimens were purchased from licensed breeders in the UK. The problem with this, however, is that the majority of licensed breeders in the UK at least, are still using the same outdated practices us members in the forum campaign against because it's not only unsafe but it also lowers the survival rate of tortoise hatchlings while in the hands of first-time/new tortoise owners.

Even the largest breeder in UK is still pumping and dumping dry started babies off to pet shops the last time I checked. I remember seeing a lot of discrepancies in their main website as well.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/...57894/Meet-UK-s-largest-tortoise-breeder.html

So while you'll be able to purchase a captive-bred tortoise, the quality of care and process of starting them dry can and will still cause those tortoises to have problems in the future because their bodily organs may not be as fully developed as a well started baby's would.

I rescued him from someone that got him from someone else (neither breeder nor pet shop). Sadly, I would imagine you are right, and there are terrible practices very much at large here in the UK. We have vile, horrific puppy farms, for example - I can’t see my compatriots treating reptiles any better, I’m sad to say ☹️
 

Minority2

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I rescued him from someone that got him from someone else (neither breeder nor pet shop). Sadly, I would imagine you are right, and there are terrible practices very much at large here in the UK. We have vile, horrific puppy farms, for example - I can’t see my compatriots treating reptiles any better, I’m sad to say ☹

There's nothing wrong with having an imperfect tortoise. What matters is that you the owner is going to now take care of him or her to the best of your abilities. That's all that matters. It's definitely good to know so that you can be aware and be able to let potential owners decide whether or not they want to support a breeder that's starting them correctly, or a breeder that isn't. I hope in time someone dethrones that particular UK breeder because that guy's going to continue giving the smaller group of well started licensed breeders of UK a bad name by pumping out a shoddy product.
 

Ubercat

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From what I remember, during written conversations with other UK members years ago is that there are still some importation slipping through the cracks here and there but reputable shops usually are required to have valid paperwork proving that their specimens were purchased from licensed breeders in the UK. The problem with this, however, is that the majority of licensed breeders in the UK at least, are still using the same outdated practices us members in the forum campaign against because it's not only unsafe but it also lowers the survival rate of tortoise hatchlings while in the hands of first-time/new tortoise owners.

Even the largest breeder in UK is still pumping and dumping dry started babies off to pet shops the last time I checked. I remember seeing a lot of discrepancies in their main website as well.
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/travel/...57894/Meet-UK-s-largest-tortoise-breeder.html

So while you'll be able to purchase a captive-bred tortoise, the quality of care and process of starting them dry can and will still cause those tortoises to have problems in the future because their bodily organs may not be as fully developed as a well started baby's would.

I’ve just noticed the article is from the Daily Mail. I’d take anything written in that paper with a pinch of salt. It’s rarely accurate, and generally filled with hatred.
 

Blackdog1714

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Wow, your russian doesn't seem to grumpy. Yeah for you! I would just worry if he refuses to eat for too many days in a row. My Russian is a pig
IMG_2695.jpeg
 

Ubercat

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Wow, your russian doesn't seem to grumpy. Yeah for you! I would just worry if he refuses to eat for too many days in a row. My Russian is a pig
View attachment 303742

Hmmm. Mine weighs 305... does that mean yours is 10X size of mine?? My maths is appalling. He’s 9.5cm. I wish he would eat a bit more... he’s not very good at grazing...
 

Minority2

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I’ve just noticed the article is from the Daily Mail. I’d take anything written in that paper with a pinch of salt. It’s rarely accurate, and generally filled with hatred.

Do what I did years ago. Track that person's information down and find his main website. If I remember correctly, it's got photos of cropped/stolen content, incorrect substrate choices, and bad care advice. The thread should still be in the forums buried somewhere.
 

Blackdog1714

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Hmmm. Mine weighs 305... does that mean yours is 10X size of mine?? My maths is appalling. He’s 9.5cm. I wish he would eat a bit more... he’s not very good at grazing...
Hibiscus blooms and Plantain Weeds are his favorites
 

zovick

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Thanks for the pix. I would venture to say that your tortoise is fairly young, but it is older than 2.5 years in my opinion. I could be wrong, but my guess would be more like 5-7 years of age looking at the shell morphology and amount of wear on it.
 

zovick

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Wow, your russian doesn't seem to grumpy. Yeah for you! I would just worry if he refuses to eat for too many days in a row. My Russian is a pig
View attachment 303742
Nice looking tortoise. Can you clarify the reading on the scale for me, please? Does that say 309.4 g. or 3094 g. as Ubercat assumed? Also how old is your tortoise? Sorry if I missed you saying its age anywhere.
Thank you.
 
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