Do I need humidity if...

nearpass

Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Aug 11, 2009
Messages
109
I really don't think humidifiers use that much electricity, but can you put a couple of pots of water on the radiator? That used to be they way folks tried to keep the humidity up...but the pots were on top of the wood stove;)
 

lkwagner

Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Mar 1, 2012
Messages
682
Idk about humidifiers but my dehumidifier uses a ridiculous amount of electricity
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
63,264
Location (City and/or State)
Southern California
lkwagner said:
Idk about humidifiers but my dehumidifier uses a ridiculous amount of electricity

Totally different concepts...
 

hunterk997

Member
10 Year Member!
Joined
Mar 17, 2013
Messages
897
Location (City and/or State)
Wayland, NY
I experimented with my russian tortoise's enclosure. I did have to moisten the substrate a fair amount, but I got the humidity to 40% and now (two hours later) it's around 37%. So now it's just a matter of getting the overall humidity of my room up. Thanks for the help everyone.
 

Testudoresearch

New Member
Joined
Dec 12, 2013
Messages
114
Tom said:
It makes perfect sense to me to use a humid hide, damp substrate, etc., to offset the un-natural drying effects of our captive environments.

There is nothing un-natural about a RH of 45-50% for Testudo hermanni. It is very typical of what they experience. In fact, it is higher on average than what they experience for a substantial part of their time - it can be as low as 35%... in fact, I have recorded it down to 23% at times.

Tom said:
And in fact everyone I know that has attempted to mimic "natural" conditions for hatchling sulcatas and leopards has not had good results.

Quite so. However - what else are they doing? Or not doing? Diet? Growth rates? Substrate? UVB? Heating? Lighting? Temperatures? Any of these variables (and others) will affect the outcome. I could not tell you why they have problems without a full and detailed picture of the full circumstances. I would not be prepared to guess either.

Tom said:
Its especially bad for hatchlings. Countless numbers of babies have died due to dehydration complications because the people were of the mistaken notion that they needed dry enclosures and low humidity.

You have to quantify what you mean by "dry". I would agree that sustained low humidity (<30%) and the drying effect of certain types of heating system is damaging. So is failure to use any kind of microclimate retreat. However.... I do not define 45-50% RH as "low". It is not. It is mid-range by very definition, and I positively guarantee you that T. hermanni have absolutely zero problems, even for very sustained periods in that range.

Tom said:
I can't debate Testudo with you because I don't have enough experience raising them from hatchlings in multiple ways over many years. Sulcatas and leopards, on the other hand, are a different story.

In the past 5 years I have raised literally hundreds of tortoises in humid chambers with humid hides.

It was clearly stated in that other thread by some people that these high-humidity hides "only" applied to G. sulcata and G. pardalis... that no such claims were being made in respect of Testudo. Here:

Team Gomberg said:
Raising Testudo is different than raising Sulcata and Leopard tortoises.
This high humidity method doesn't apply to your species.

My highlighting. I'm just trying to be clear here. Which is it? Are you saying the above is completely wrong and that you claim it does apply?

There seem to be contradictory claims on this point..... some say it does, some say it does not. Which is it?

Tom said:
Not a one of them shows anything like your pics. All of them have grown up healthy and smooth. No shell issues whatsoever. There are dozens of examples right here on this forum.

As I pointed out, this is not something that would happen in every case - but - the fact is it does happen in some cases. The reasons why it can happen are very obvious. Soft keratin is notoriously vulnerable to both bacterial and fungal organisms. This applies right across the animal kingdom (I include humans in that). The very best known examples are Athlete's Foot and Onychomycosis (fungal nail infection) in humans. Every single medical textbook I have ever encountered cites "being in a humid or moist environment" as a prime risk factor. Keratin is keratin. Toe-nail or carapace scute. They share near identical susceptibilities and risk factors for this. The same is seen in hoofed animals, and horn infections also occur in similar circumstances. Fact. If you keep keratin "too wet" this is an issue. Tortoises have no special immunity. Both Beta and Alpha keratins are affected. It only takes the presence of a pathogen plus a hospitable environment for the damage in those photos to occur. I accept you have not seen it, but I have. Numerous times.


Tom said:
Just because a small percentage of tortoises are able to survive the rigors of the wild and reach breeding age is no reason to intentionally inflict less than optimal conditions upon them in our captive environments.

Wild tortoises very, very rarely die from anything environmental-related, I suspect. The vast majority of mortalities are due to predation and human activity (roads, agriculture, habitat destruction). They are incredibly tough and resilient in their own habitats. They cope with droughts, flash floods, fires.... climates that generate surface temperatures of up to 70C (158F) or as low as -20C (-4F), and routinely experience RH far below the levels discussed here. Throughout this, they remain vibrantly healthy and well hydrated even in some truly barren and (to our eyes) very harsh environments indeed.

I am surprised to see the term "less than optimal conditions" used to describe the natural habitat. How could anything possibly be more optimal? This is what they do best in. Better than you or I could ever hope to achieve in captivity. You cannot "improve" on nature itself, Tom.... I believe history is clear on this point. Whenever humans think they can, stuff starts to go horribly wrong eventually. We should learn from nature. Not try to "improve" it. We're not that clever.
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
63,264
Location (City and/or State)
Southern California
Testudoresearch said:
There is nothing un-natural about a RH of 45-50% for Testudo hermanni. It is very typical of what they experience...

... in the wild. Not in an artificial captive setting.


Testudoresearch said:
Quite so. However - what else are they doing? Or not doing? Diet? Growth rates? Substrate? UVB? Heating? Lighting? Temperatures? Any of these variables (and others) will affect the outcome. I could not tell you why they have problems without a full and detailed picture of the full circumstances. I would not be prepared to guess either.

All the other variables you listed are minor in comparison. Dry vs. wet are the main determining factors. Raise a tortoise on dry substrate, with a hot bulb and low humidity, and it will pyramid. Raise one on damp substrate with high humidity, daily soaks, shell spraying, humid hides, and it won't. This can be seen here on this forum with hundreds of examples both ways. I also see it daily, both ways, in my day to day life. I've seen them fed a wide variety of ways and it matters little. They usually grow slowly in a dry dehydrated environment, and more quickly when kept in a humid hydrated environment. Dry substrate with low humidity is not "good" for any tortoise. UVB does not matter as far as pyramiding is concerned. Heating, lighting and temps must be adequate for the species regardless of pyramiding or not.

You said you are not prepared to guess? I don't need to guess. I KNOW what will happen both ways because I've personally done it both ways repeatedly with multiple species. While you have a tremendous amount of experience with wild tortoises and their habitats, you don't demonstrate much experience with captive tropical tortoises in the way they are conventionally kept here in the states. I started in retail pets in 1986. Tortoises and their captive care and handling has been my hobby and profession since then. I have seen many many cases of tortoises housed, fed and cared for in any way you can imagine, and some you probably couldn't believe, much less imagine. The above "dry vs. wet" generalization is a product of those decades of observation.


Testudoresearch said:
It was clearly stated in that other thread by some people that these high-humidity hides "only" applied to G. sulcata and G. pardalis... that no such claims were being made in respect of Testudo. Here:

Team Gomberg said:
Raising Testudo is different than raising Sulcata and Leopard tortoises.
This high humidity method doesn't apply to your species.

My highlighting. I'm just trying to be clear here. Which is it? Are you saying the above is completely wrong and that you claim it does apply?

There seem to be contradictory claims on this point..... some say it does, some say it does not. Which is it?

I can only speak for myself. In contrast to your view that all species are the same in this regard, I believe there are great differences between the species. Sulcatas and leopards are much more prone to pyramiding than greeks or russians, and therefore require more attention to these details. This should be obvious. It has been my experience that in captivity russians, greeks and hermanns do just fine and can grow smoothly with moderate humidity. There are many examples of this. Sulcata and leopards cannot. There are many examples of this too. It is my opinion based on my experience that any species will benefit from having a humid hide. This is a technique that I have been using for snakes and lizards for decades. It was Richard Fife's 2007 "Leopard Tortoises" book that prompted me to try it on tortoises. My results have been shockingly good and all positive. I have used humid hides with 6 species now (and counting), with 100% positive results. I can't even begin to estimate how many others have had similar results.


Testudoresearch said:
As I pointed out, this is not something that would happen in every case - but - the fact is it does happen in some cases. The reasons why it can happen are very obvious. Soft keratin is notoriously vulnerable to both bacterial and fungal organisms. This applies right across the animal kingdom (I include humans in that). The very best known examples are Athlete's Foot and Onychomycosis (fungal nail infection) in humans. Every single medical textbook I have ever encountered cites "being in a humid or moist environment" as a prime risk factor. Keratin is keratin. Toe-nail or carapace scute. They share near identical susceptibilities and risk factors for this. The same is seen in hoofed animals, and horn infections also occur in similar circumstances. Fact. If you keep keratin "too wet" this is an issue. Tortoises have no special immunity. Both Beta and Alpha keratins are affected. It only takes the presence of a pathogen plus a hospitable environment for the damage in those photos to occur. I accept you have not seen it, but I have. Numerous times.

You spell this out very eloquently, but YOUR proposed risk and potential for harm does not match MY reality for this situation. For the last 6 years I have had LITERALLY hundreds of tortoises representing 6 species on damp substrate in humid hide boxes. There are many 1000's of tortoises on this forum that live in them and with them too. I also call many tortoise veterinarians "friend" and not one of them has a single case of any sort of shell malady caused by a humid hide. The ONE exception that I will grant you to this is the red foot tortoise. THAT species does show a predisposition for plastron shell rot in constant damp or wet conditions. Sulcatas, russians, stars, Gopherus, and both types of leopards do NOT. Other people on this forum keep just about every other species of tortoise with humid hides and we haven't seen any problems with any of theirs either. While I cannot say that the maladies you propose are impossible, I CAN say they are extremely unlikely to the point that with thousands of humid hide users, not ONE has reported any of the potential problems you speak of.


Testudoresearch said:
Wild tortoises very, very rarely die from anything environmental-related, I suspect. The vast majority of mortalities are due to predation and human activity (roads, agriculture, habitat destruction). They are incredibly tough and resilient in their own habitats. They cope with droughts, flash floods, fires.... climates that generate surface temperatures of up to 70C (158F) or as low as -20C (-4F), and routinely experience RH far below the levels discussed here. Throughout this, they remain vibrantly healthy and well hydrated even in some truly barren and (to our eyes) very harsh environments indeed.

I am surprised to see the term "less than optimal conditions" used to describe the natural habitat. How could anything possibly be more optimal? This is what they do best in. Better than you or I could ever hope to achieve in captivity. You cannot "improve" on nature itself, Tom.... I believe history is clear on this point. Whenever humans think they can, stuff starts to go horribly wrong eventually. We should learn from nature. Not try to "improve" it. We're not that clever.


I don't agree that wild tortoises rarely die from anything environment related. Every book and presentation that I have seen shows pictures from unspoiled habitat of tortoise skeletons. Mr. Wegehaupt's book shows an example of this, and he states that its from a prolonged persistent drought in that area of Italy. I have seen similar pictures from the Galapagos, California, South Africa, Madagascar, etc. The wild is full of hazards and events that will kill tortoises. Parasites, drought, predators, conspecific competition, not to mention all the human encroachment and insult. I have read figures that vary from 300-3000 hatchlings die for every one that makes it to adulthood. Obviously this will vary from species to species, and in different environments. That's a lot of dead wild tortoises. By contrast, I've lost one hatchling out of hundreds. It hatched 120 days late and was never quite "right".

We have a very different view of what constitutes "optimal". Fires, drought, storms, floods, weather extremes, predation, human interference, starvation, conspecific competition, introduced diseases and plants, etc., are NOT what I consider optimal. Survivable in some cases, yes, but not optimal. Any captive animal that I have raised (in the past I sadly did not raise tortoises correctly, based on incorrect "expert" advice), has fared better, thrived and lived much longer than their wild counterparts. Animals are my job, career, hobby, passion and source of joy and entertainment. I work with many species, not just reptiles or tortoises. Are you aware that captive animals in most cases live twice as long as their wild counterparts. Since no one knows the potential lifespan of a tortoise, no one can say if this applies to them, but I see no reason why it wouldn't.

When I study tortoises and which conditions they thrive in, it is pretty obvious that they merely survive some days in the wild while at other more favorable times of the year, they thrive. I don't feel it necessary or beneficial to intentionally impose the hardships of the wild on my tortoises. Instead I try to provide them with conditions that will allow them to thrive. You might be right that wild leopards don't have a humid hide, and experience prolonged periods of 80% humidity, but my captive ones do, and they thrive in it. These are some of the ways I have found to compensate for the many differences between the wild and my version of captivity. My former leopards were kept drier, more naturally, as you suggest, and they did not thrive. In fact they pyramided horribly and ended up stunted. So did my formerly dry raised sulcatas. You can list as many potential maladies as you wish, but the FACT is that those maladies don't materialize. Not for me and not for anybody else raising them this way. Yet the maladies that I have seen from the conditions that you are advocating (you seem to be advocating them for all species) are clear, obvious and numerous. The conditions you suggest might be okay for some species, but they are not going to be beneficial for all species. And while you might be able to raise a smooth greek without a humid hide box in its indoor enclosure, a humid hide is not going to do any harm, and it might actually help a tortoise that is living conditions that are in some way less favorable than what your are able to provide.
 

edwardbo

Active Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2013
Messages
269
Testudo ,!!! Thank you for visiting again! Why are people arguing with you ?if they would stop trying to read anything else into what you are saying it is very common sense and simple .again why are people trying to make something complex when it isn't ? Look at the pics of natural habitats ,see it ? Seems like so much energy is spent trying to cure the cure for the problems that would not be a problem if they didn't cause a problem in the first place.(how's that for being articulate ?)....also there is a big difference between dying and being killed ....all it's going to take is one bacteria and that whole house of cards is going to collapse ,it's a Petrie dish waiting....I bet you don't wear gloves when your handling your torts ,don't need to.......love your info and the tone of your presentation, peps forget your preconceived notions and listen , this is not a character assassination .it is cold hard fact on tort husbandry.we are hurting the torts ( basking bulbs,poor diet,heat......as I've said before "healthy animals don't get sick" ....now ,testudo if you could get an interests in box turtles I will fall in love .pm me with your books ,name and info....before closing the expression " if your so smart why aren't you rich ?" Comes to mind .(that's directed to your biggest detractor)....thanks again , stick around I enjoy a good fight ,much love and in this case laughs.........


Reread some more . I have not seen where you say humid hides are bad , cooking your torts making them NEED a humid hide is bad. I also don't have any problems with cool temps .peps ,listen, this is good stuff.
 

zenoandthetortoise

Active Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2013
Messages
420
GREAT discussion, Tom and Testudoresearch. Maybe it's just my perception, but it seems as though we are getting some really interesting threads lately and not just the "sulcatta in a Santa hat" type of post.
Anyway, I have neither studied tortoises in the wild or raised hundreds of hatchlings, so my contribution here is minimal and limited to questions.
Tom- isn't it odd that the only tortoise mentioned that clearly lives in high humidity. (Redfoot) is the only one typically associated with shell rot ? Any guesses as to why? Have you seen any long term negative effects from hatchlings raised with high humidity?

Testudo- I don't follow the logic that wild conditions would be equivalent to optimal, short of a pelagic species. Hydration, nutrition, and hygiene are all conditions I strive to provide that far exceed natural. Can you elaborate further on the value of the alternate approach?
 

Levi the Leopard

IXOYE
10 Year Member!
Joined
Oct 1, 2012
Messages
7,958
Location (City and/or State)
Southern Oregon
Testudoresearch said:
It was clearly stated in that other thread by some people that these high-humidity hides "only" applied to G. sulcata and G. pardalis... that no such claims were being made in respect of Testudo. Here:

Team Gomberg said:
Raising Testudo is different than raising Sulcata and Leopard tortoises.
This high humidity method doesn't apply to your species.

My highlighting. I'm just trying to be clear here. Which is it? Are you saying the above is completely wrong and that you claim it does apply?

There seem to be contradictory claims on this point..... some say it does, some say it does not. Which is it?

You mis quote me. I did not say "that these high-humidity hides "only" applied to G. sulcata and G. pardalis".

I said this "high humidity method" doesn't. This is the "high humidity method" I was referring to and is the way I've been raising my leopards.
Basking temp 95F
Warm end 90s
Cool end 80s
Night time temp 80F
Ambient humidity 80%+
Humid Hide with a higher humidity level

And I again say that method does not apply to the Testudo species. I would not recommend those conditions for those tortoises. I use them for Leopard hatchlings and recommend them for Sulcata hatchlings as well.

I did not single out humid hides.

No contradictory claims.
 

Testudoresearch

New Member
Joined
Dec 12, 2013
Messages
114
I would have though 45% RH is 45% RH whether it is in Africa, Asia, your back yard or mine... it is a product of water vapour and temperature. Nothing more. I am sure you are not really saying 45% RH is different in New York than it is here, in Testudo habitat, but unfortunately it reads rather like that.

Tom said:
All the other variables you listed are minor in comparison.

Goodness. That is a breathtakingly sweeping statement. You must be very sure of your ground to say something like that. I'd certainly like to be reassured that you are adequately qualified to make such a remarkable claim and have a reasonable factual basis for your conclusions. Chelonian nutrition, for example. You say it is "minor in comparison". That is absolutely not my view, and neither is it the view of any veterinarian, wildlife nutritionist or biologist I have ever worked with or consulted on this topic since I entered this area back around 1982. In fact, I have never met anyone before who has said that. So, just to be sure that you have adequately considered all of these variables that you dismiss so easily, and that you understand them well enough to be able to judge - I would like to see your evidence. I'd particularly like to see something you have published that clearly explains why MBD (Metabolic Bone Disease), for example, is so irrelevant and minor when it comes to raising healthy animals free of deformity. I quite open-minded and will carefully study your work in this field. Please just point me to where I can do so. You have the advantage over me that a good deal of my work in that area is readily available online and in various books and reference texts.


Tom said:
Dry substrate with low humidity is not "good" for any tortoise.

So this is "bad"? Wrong? Not suitable?

habitat_may15-2.jpg

habitat_may15.jpg

habitat_may15-2.jpg


RH (ambient) was 24%, highest humidity available was recorded at 44.9% under that succulent vegetation (this was May 15 in natural habitat. That's a wild tortoise). I think you see just how dry that habitat is...

Tom said:
UVB does not matter as far as pyramiding is concerned.

You have astounded me twice in one post!

How can it possibly NOT matter? Without UVB the tortoise is not able to sustain (or maintain) healthy bone growth. Without UVB they develop MBD. Bones demineralize. They weaken... easy to deform... fracture.


Tom said:
Heating, lighting and temps must be adequate for the species regardless of pyramiding or not.

It is nice to know we agree on something :)


Tom said:
While you have a tremendous amount of experience with wild tortoises and their habitats, you don't demonstrate much experience with captive tropical tortoises in the way they are conventionally kept here in the states.

I have actually spent a substantial amount of time in the US. Indeed, my wife is American. I have worked with multiple zoos in the US, and have been a consultant to various State and National Agencies dealing with wildlife crime and forensics, operator/agent training, and regularly lectured at conferences and congresses throughout the US. I have also given talks to numerous tortoise and turtle societies there, and spent a lot of time visiting dealers, breeders and expos. So think think I have a pretty good idea. I just don't agree with a lot of it.


Tom said:
I can only speak for myself. In contrast to your view that all species are the same in this regard, I believe there are great differences between the species.

We have to be very clear by what we mean by "in this regard". I am referring to the physiology and biology of bone and keratin production and the responses of those materials to environmental and nutritional factors. I am not saying - and never have - that all species can be treated identically. Again, if you have evidence they are different in that regard, it is unfamiliar to me, and I would like to see it.


Tom said:
in captivity russians, greeks and hermanns do just fine and can grow smoothly with moderate humidity. There are many examples of this. Sulcata and leopards cannot.

Cannot? I produced real evidence in the other thread that indeed they can - these, for example.

CB_pardalis_4yrs.jpg

CB+pardalis_8yrs.jpg


If what you say is true, these are impossible...

How do you explain them?


Tom said:
I don't agree that wild tortoises rarely die from anything environment related. Every book and presentation that I have seen shows pictures from unspoiled habitat of tortoise skeletons.

I guarantee you that you can looks for weeks... months... and not find one. I deliberately go out and look for them (I need bone samples) and each one is quite a rare prize. Even if you do find them, most show evidence (gnaw marks, for example, dis-articulated bones) of predator attack. I think I detect a pattern in your arguments... the wild is a bad place.. the environment there is "sub-optimal"...... you can do do "better" in captivity... at least, that is the impression I get. If you (or anyone else) really believes that the natural habitat is routinely littered with tortoise skeletons, come over here and show me. I have worked extensively in Morocco, Tunisia, Egypt, Spain, France, Italy, Greece, Turkey, Syria (and a few other places besides, including the Galapagos and South Africa) and I have never seen anything to support what you say. But... I'm here... tortoise habitat all around... and open to someone proving I'm wrong. I am also quite happy to take any serious fellow reseacher out with humidity meters and thermometers. All anyone has to do is contact me and I can take you to a variety of habitats with good populations....you can check for yourself. Anytime.
 

Tom

The Dog Trainer
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 9, 2010
Messages
63,264
Location (City and/or State)
Southern California
zenoandthetortoise said:
Tom- isn't it odd that the only tortoise mentioned that clearly lives in high humidity. (Redfoot) is the only one typically associated with shell rot ? Any guesses as to why? Have you seen any long term negative effects from hatchlings raised with high humidity?

I don't have a satisfactory explanation for the redfoot's propensity for shell rot. Just something I have observed. I don't keep that species and I have not studied much on them. I just read the occasional thread here on the forum. I find it pretty curious myself. Maybe one of our resident RF keepers can chime in with some theories or explanation. I just know that shell rot and RI were the main reasons given for so many years why sulcatas and leopards needed to be kept dry. THAT proved to NOT be the case.

Daisy, who was my first guinea pig for the wet routine, is now just about six years old and somewhere around 45 pounds. Thriving and doing well. Tuck and Trey were my first two hatchlings raised entirely on the wet routine since literally day one, and likewise, they are doing exceedingly well. They spent most of the summer underground in a 22' deep burrow. With the onset of colder weather and ground temps falling, they are relegated to their above ground heated box again... Trey is just a little smaller than Daisy and Tuck has shown himself to be a male although he is a bit smaller than his sister Trey. You can see their entire lives in the "End of Pyramiding" thread. Its due for another update...
 

edwardbo

Active Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2013
Messages
269
Zeno,if I may ,these animals are not designed to live in better than optimal conditioned ,millions of years have provided what they need.(I would imagine putting race car fuel in your car would not be a good thing ).look at the picture of the caca(fecies)see how it is all fibrous ,in that fiber lives bacteria that the turtle needs for proper absorbs ion ,see the seed and stems ?they need it.im not the expert but the info is surprisingly simple and strait forward .it is what it is .....we need oxygen but I think if we pumped only pure oxygen into us it would most likely KILL us,you need fluid ,moisture,but there are plenty of cases of people dying from too much fluid,too many to list up to drowning . Nature is a beautiful song listen to it. ....race horses are frequently kept at better than optimal conditions and look at the problems they have and how short their career is ,it is not because they are old ,they are ruined .sorry for the lousy writing and syntax,but are you getting the picture ? .....people try to get torts to grow rapidly ,they will but there is a price to pay......I'm thinking that eating only vitamins for food would be good ,is that what you are thinking.....we and the animals are made to fit in a niche ,in the big picture the wild condition is optimal........ Great question about redfoots,I would think too much of a good thing is not that good, too hot , too small a cage, too full of rich foods ,not enough foraging ,exercise ,too (wet) and the problem will find the weakest link ,sitting in the same wet spot full of crap and voila ,shell rot! Again I'm no expert but I have a thousand years of common sense dealing with the worlds most rare ,exotic animals. Again healthy animals don't get sick. Hope I haven't offended you ,read gently what testudo wrote ,he mentioned low temps(not wet low temps)days,weeks months with out food . Look at the activity charts ,they spend more time not active than active.i think maybe it's too simple for people to understand. I see posts with people asking what to do if they have to go away for the weekend.
Right now it's minus 15 degree outside and my box turtles are under a layer of damp dirt sleeping for months .its what turtles do ,good for them ,not so good for me(yes ,I do worry )if I brought them into the heated room where I am they would die.(I do have a couple to keep me company,but they were not allowed to feel the season change,and breeding might not go so well,even fatal for the female because I gave her better than the wild condition) with much love ,did that help ?
 

Testudoresearch

New Member
Joined
Dec 12, 2013
Messages
114
I do not want to divert from the prime conversation, but thought it a good idea to just give my take on Wolfgang Wegehaupt's book. This is an excellent book. I highly recommend it.The habitat photos are a fantastic reference and all keepers would benefit from studying them carefully.

It also highlights (very well) some of the main threats facing wild populations. These mostly stem from us. Humans. We destroy habitat to grow things... we build roads through tortoise habitat... we let dogs loose to kill tortoises... we attract rats that kill tortoise.... we start fires.

Some fires are normal and natural here. They are started by lightening strikes. We had a big one just a few miles from my house last year that started like that. They are part of the normal ecosystem, and are healthy. They clear dead vegetation, and encourage new growth. Short term, yes - some tortoises die or are injured, but they do have quite good instincts and most survive by burying quickly down. To put this in perspective... a recent major wildfire not far from here.

Before
fire_1.jpg


After
fire_3.jpg

fire_5.jpg

fire_6.jpg

fire_7.jpg

fire_9.jpg

fire_11.jpg


This was not a 'natural' fire, however - it was started by a welder in a local mechanic's shop.....he was subsequently sent to jail for ignoring regulations in wildfire season and fined very heavily. Some fires are started deliberately... by vandals.. or 'developers'. That has been a real problem in Greece.

We searched that entire area after for injured or dead tortoises, and found nothing, by the way. There is a good population there. Much depends on the time of year... if it happens when they are estivating, most survive. Fires in Spring are the most damaging and dangerous.

Just a couple of weeks later...

fire_13.jpg

fire_14.jpg

fire_15.jpg

burntopuntia.jpg


Exactly 12 months after an earlier fire in another location close to here.

fire6.jpg

fire7.jpg


These areas recover quickly. Plants return. Wildlife returns.

Do read Wolfgang's book if you can - it is a great introduction to arid habitat ecology and the conservation issues facing Testudo in the Mediterranean.


zenoandthetortoise said:
Testudo- I don't follow the logic that wild conditions would be equivalent to optimal, short of a pelagic species. Hydration, nutrition, and hygiene are all conditions I strive to provide that far exceed natural. Can you elaborate further on the value of the alternate approach?

A couple of points. Edwardbo (above) gets it. Completely.

Tortoises have existed in these habitats for a huge period of time....tens of thousands of years.... and more... much more. They were doing very well, thank you. Until we came along. They are incredible animals. The hatchlings leave the egg... and are self-sufficient from day one. They have us beat. They don't need us. We just mess things up. We always think we know better. We don't.

A real-life example in the tortoise world. Back in the 1970's keepers got the idea that all this slow growth was not good enough. They could raise animals faster and "better". They could beat nature! They could have sexually mature animals in 1/3 of the time it took in the "sub-optimal" natural habitat! They started feeding them animal proteins, and peas...beans.. even tofu! You can read this stuff in books (the old TFH books are a great example). They did indeed grow quickly... and ended up with liver failure (fatty infiltration), kidney failure (excess urea from consuming all that protein) and horrendous, indescribable, fibrous osteodystrophy and other MBD-related conditions. It seemed, to those keepers, OK at the time... they dd not know what was really going on "inside". I worked on that for a number of years, and began to try to educate people that there was more to it than getting fast growth. This is an original image from that period I used in what turned out to be quite an influential paper:

b%26w_porosis.jpg


A lot of people were not happy, and strongly disagreed with me. I heard some of the same arguments... wild diets were "poor"... they must "starve".. look how slow they grow.... captivity was much superior! More food! More protein! Faster growth! More of everything!

Except... you never saw animals like this in the wild....

softleopard.jpg


So soft, he felt like a sponge....

There are two classes of nutritional disorder in captive animals. Diseases of deficiency, and diseases of excess.

It is the same with environmental management. You can "have too much of a good thing". Easily. Humidity is not the only problem area right now... keepers "blasting" animals with excessive levels of UVB is another. Frances has a lot of very good, sensible things to say on that topic. One thing she says that I agree 100% with is "It would seem logical that keepers cannot go far wrong if they seek to emulate the natural UVB environment inhabited by the species they keep"

Yes - and the same applies to humidity, temperature and diet too.
 

FLINTUS

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2012
Messages
1,402
Location (City and/or State)
Watery Wiltshire in the UK
Red Foots are not actually proper forest tortoises. Humidity can actually get quite low where they live in some cases. They are more savannah, than forest-like Forest Hingebacks, Yellow Foots etc.- tortoises. As a result, the ground is not that wet. The other thing is that due to the climatic nature of Brazil and the surrounding areas, when rain hits the ground, providing it is not in shade, it very quickly evaporates, leading to moisture in the air and as a result high humidity.
The other major thing is that cumulonimbus clouds always gather late afternoon there, and you have EXTREMELY HEAVY rain for a short time-an hour or so- same time every day. So yes they may be in puddles of rain for a little while, but it is not constant so the rest of the day(after evaporation) the plastron stays dry.
 

Testudoresearch

New Member
Joined
Dec 12, 2013
Messages
114
FLINTUS said:
Red Foots are not actually proper forest tortoises. Humidity can actually get quite low where they live in some cases. They are more savannah, than forest-like Forest Hingebacks, Yellow Foots etc.- tortoises. As a result, the ground is not that wet. The other thing is that due to the climatic nature of Brazil and the surrounding areas, when rain hits the ground, providing it is not in shade, it very quickly evaporates, leading to moisture in the air and as a result high humidity.
The other major thing is that cumulonimbus clouds always gather late afternoon there, and you have EXTREMELY HEAVY rain for a short time-an hour or so- same time every day. So yes they may be in puddles of rain for a little while, but it is not constant so the rest of the day(after evaporation) the plastron stays dry.

Agree with that 100%. Good description of the conditions.

G. denticulata (which I have also seen in the wild, in Ecuador, incidentally) are from much 'wetter' habitats....
 

FLINTUS

Well-Known Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Sep 21, 2012
Messages
1,402
Location (City and/or State)
Watery Wiltshire in the UK
I guess one of the other problems with Red Foots' conditions is that their range is so big, and supposedly you may even have subspecies within carbonaria. The southern range ones, in the mountainous regions, apparently brumate on some occasions as it gets so cold there. The humidity is also meant to be much lower, and as a result of the altitude it is said that they mainly eat cacti rather than flowers and fruit.
Can't denticulata be found in almost marshy conditions? Like where you may find kinixys homeana or kinixys erosa? I know with kinixys erosa, because the West African rainforests are so dense, it is very hard for the rain to evaporate. Add to that they seem to favour rocky areas-at least from the few photos of their habitat we have, and what keepers have observed in captivity-, it means a lot of flowing water.
 

zenoandthetortoise

Active Member
5 Year Member
Joined
Aug 6, 2013
Messages
420
edwardbo said:
Zeno,if I may ,these animals are not designed to live in better than optimal conditioned ,millions of years have provided what they need.(I would imagine putting race car fuel in your car would not be a good thing ).look at the picture of the caca(fecies)see how it is all fibrous ,in that fiber lives bacteria that the turtle needs for proper absorbs ion ,see the seed and stems ?they need it.im not the expert but the info is surprisingly simple and strait forward .it is what it is .....we need oxygen but I think if we pumped only pure oxygen into us it would most likely KILL us,you need fluid ,moisture,but there are plenty of cases of people dying from too much fluid,too many to list up to drowning . Nature is a beautiful song listen to it. ....race horses are frequently kept at better than optimal conditions and look at the problems they have and how short their career is ,it is not because they are old ,they are ruined .sorry for the lousy writing and syntax,but are you getting the picture ? .....people try to get torts to grow rapidly ,they will but there is a price to pay......I'm thinking that eating only vitamins for food would be good ,is that what you are thinking.....we and the animals are made to fit in a niche ,in the big picture the wild condition is optimal........ Great question about redfoots,I would think too much of a good thing is not that good, too hot , too small a cage, too full of rich foods ,not enough foraging ,exercise ,too (wet) and the problem will find the weakest link ,sitting in the same wet spot full of crap and voila ,shell rot! Again I'm no expert but I have a thousand years of common sense dealing with the worlds most rare ,exotic animals. Again healthy animals don't get sick. Hope I haven't offended you ,read gently what testudo wrote ,he mentioned low temps(not wet low temps)days,weeks months with out food . Look at the activity charts ,they spend more time not active than active.i think maybe it's too simple for people to understand. I see posts with people asking what to do if they have to go away for the weekend.
Right now it's minus 15 degree outside and my box turtles are under a layer of damp dirt sleeping for months .its what turtles do ,good for them ,not so good for me(yes ,I do worry )if I brought them into the heated room where I am they would die.(I do have a couple to keep me company,but they were not allowed to feel the season change,and breeding might not go so well,even fatal for the female because I gave her better than the wild condition) with much love ,did that help ?

Hi Edwardbo. I'm not offended in the least. This thread is fascinating and I appreciate your input.
I think my conjecture regarding "optimal" would be most easily described using human living conditions. For instance, extant indigenous populations, impoverished regions and historically, humanity as a whole may achieve biological viability under heavy disease pressure, malnutrition and high mortality. Conversely, I would not provide for my kids thse conditions,because my goal is their individual thriving, not a statistical possibility that they would survive long enough to reproduce (i.e. Biologically viable).

"Nature is a beautiful song listen to it. "

My observation of competition and predation has been more in line with Tennyson "...nature, red in tooth and claw..."


FLINTUS said:
Red Foots are not actually proper forest tortoises. Humidity can actually get quite low where they live in some cases. They are more savannah, than forest-like Forest Hingebacks, Yellow Foots etc.- tortoises. As a result, the ground is not that wet. The other thing is that due to the climatic nature of Brazil and the surrounding areas, when rain hits the ground, providing it is not in shade, it very quickly evaporates, leading to moisture in the air and as a result high humidity.
The other major thing is that cumulonimbus clouds always gather late afternoon there, and you have EXTREMELY HEAVY rain for a short time-an hour or so- same time every day. So yes they may be in puddles of rain for a little while, but it is not constant so the rest of the day(after evaporation) the plastron stays dry.

Thanks Flintus. I appreciate the explanation.
 

Yvonne G

Old Timer
TFO Admin
10 Year Member!
Platinum Tortoise Club
Joined
Jan 23, 2008
Messages
93,390
Location (City and/or State)
Clovis, CA
I think we're arguing apples and oranges here. The point I tried to make when answering the OP's question was that you can't replicate wild conditions in a small indoor habitat, so you have to improvise.
 

Testudoresearch

New Member
Joined
Dec 12, 2013
Messages
114
Yvonne G said:
I think we're arguing apples and oranges here. The point I tried to make when answering the OP's question was that you can't replicate wild conditions in a small indoor habitat, so you have to improvise.

Improvising to get as close as reasonably possible is one thing. We have all struggled with that. You have to do the best you can.

Improvising to produce something totally different and "alien", however, is not the same thing at all. If I know a species uses a burrow in the wild that averages 36% RH..... I would aim to get as close to that figure as I could (within the limits of my facilities). I would not aim for, say, 76%....... or 90%... or 22%.

To me, that simply does not add up and makes no sense. I have a hard time understanding why anyone would do that.
 

Levi the Leopard

IXOYE
10 Year Member!
Joined
Oct 1, 2012
Messages
7,958
Location (City and/or State)
Southern Oregon
Testudo, you are using my comment out of context to ask your question. I said a simple 2 liner to a new member (you) trying to clarify what each of us was talking about. I was speaking about leopards and didn't know if you knew that.

You asked about the "conflict" of some saying to use humid hides for all species and some saying it only applied to leopards and sulcatas. You use my quote as your basis for this.
My quote does not pertain to humid hides. It pertains to ambient high humidity. Again, I said the humidity method as I described above is what many of us use only for the leopards and sulcatas and that method (in it's entirety) did not apply to your species.

Yes 45% RH is just that regardless of outdoors or an indoor enclosure in NY or CA. So is 80%. A number reading is just that.
I was trying to say that the high ambient humidity was not used for Testudo. You took that to mean I said no humid hides for Testudo.
I hope I have straightened up the confusion.
Sorry OP, this is not an answer to your question. However, if someone is confused about what I said and using my quote out of connect to draw up an inaccurate conclusion, I must try to clarify.
 

New Posts

Top