Diffrent types of cherryheads and guaging marbeling in hatchlings?

[Hustler]

To me it would seem there are at least 2 diffrent types of cherryheads?
i have a marbled brazilian cherry that looks very diffrent than the deep red headded black shelled cherry but both were said to be brazillian and they look like completely diffrent tortoises both in color and in shape?
I dug up a few examples from google to show better what i mean but if the red headded super dark type isnt the same as a brizilian than what "type" of cherryhead would it be?
Also what do the marbled brazilian cherryheads offspring look like when young? Can you tell potential marbeling from hatch?

 

[N2TORTS]

Hustler .... good point , as for years now with no "real" answer , I think your on to something. ( of course it could come back to the by now most are hybrids ) In the last 10 years of collecting cherries from around the world , I too see a major difference not so much in the Marbling ( as this is probably linked to a genetic code in the melanin ) but definitely head shape. Years back I bought some from Crutchfield , and Wanda a Joe P. These were supposed to be some of the first imports or F1’s from the 80’s and as such all were more the “dwarf type” in overall appearance/ size ( and remain that way today ) but most important and the most noticeable , they all have a very “Slender Head Shape”. Interesting for sure …….
Lets start with some of the Regular cherries:

Now some of the Slender Heads.......

JD~

PS .... That last pic Of YOUR Marbled Cherry IS AWESOME ! ! ! !!

 

[Hustler]

Those were just pics i grabbed off google images
But I agree with the head shape as well. A bit like the male vs the female head One just looks like its always mad and you can spot the sinister look out of a group right away lol
The darker ones also have the yellow spots on thier scutes that go all around the parimeter of thier shell where as the marbled type are not as distinct? Like in the first 2 pics i posted.

 

[Redstrike]

No doubt there's some differences in the captive animals we see, and there may be something to this. I just wanted to chime in and say, like us, there's a lot of natural variation in populations. It seems likely that Brazilian, Guyanan, and Panamanian RF are subspecies (perhaps not, really no clear evidence either way), and it would be interesting to see if there is further division within these distinct populations as you are both indicating. I know a lot of us would love to see a conclusive study delineating whether these populations are indeed subspecies or separate species (I find the later unlikely). Until then, we're really left to speculate on what some of these differences could mean.

In my opinion, I'd guess some of the variation you see in the Brazilians is probably due to the genetic variation within populations and not due to any speciation - but this is purely anecdotal opinion as I don't have any evidence to the contrary!

 

[N2TORTS]

No doubt there's some differences in the captive animals we see, and there may be something to this. I just wanted to chime in and say, like us, there's a lot of natural variation in populations. It seems likely that Brazilian, Guyanan, and Panamanian RF are subspecies (perhaps not, really no clear evidence either way), and it would be interesting to see if there is further division within these distinct populations as you are both indicating. I know a lot of us would love to see a conclusive study delineating whether these populations are indeed subspecies or separate species (I find the later unlikely). Until then, we're really left to speculate on what some of these differences could mean.

In my opinion, I'd guess some of the variation you see in the Brazilians is probably due to the genetic variation within populations and not due to any speciation - but this is purely anecdotal opinion as I don't have any evidence to the contrary!

Excellent answer .....v^v^tippin' ma hat!

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Those were just pics i grabbed off google images
But I agree with the head shape as well. A bit like the male vs the female head One just looks like its always mad and you can spot the sinister look out of a group right away lol

Very true!
Although .... I do have some " wicked looking gals too! "



Theres only 2 "boyz" in the herd.......

 

[Madkins007]

Unfortunately, the Brazilians, while increasingly popular in the pet trade, are among the least studied group in the wild. We don't even really know much about the range or wild habitat- most of the photos of them are taken at farms, etc. There might be several strains, local variants, sub-species, etc. and we just don't really know.

For example, if all the examples of one type are found in region A, and all from the other are from region B, it would be very illuminating... but we so rarely know the original collection sites. Sigh.

 

[EricIvins]

Brazil is a very large country, that has many different "types" of what we would call a "Cherryhead". This has been known for a while, and some of these types have been documented........You also have to realize that Paraguay and other surrounding countries have "Cherryheads" also, and no one has really differentiated them in captivity.......

A group of Paraguayan Cherryheads came in last year, and I know some of these have been assimilated into typical "Brazilian" type Cherryhead groups.......There are a few differences though - mainly shape and other morphological differences......

 

[Madkins007]

I was referring more to the DNA variants that Vargas-Ramirez discusses (http://www.fundacionbiodiversa.org/pdf/Mario/Vargas_2010_Chelonoidis.pdf )

Cherry-head started as a marketing term used for the brightly colored torts that were imported from a farm that got them, most likely, from parts of south-central Brazil. Now it is being used in two main ways- as a color descriptor applied to any other variation or race, and as a term that is semi-synonymous with Brazilian or Eastern 'race' (or sub-species, or whatever the heck they turn out to be.) I don't particularly like it, but we are stuck with it.

They found 5 DNA variants, but there may be many more and we really don't have any good ideas of the ranges even of those he described.

If you know of any other field reports, I'd love to have links or titles if that would be possible!

 

[Hustler]

Well thanks alot guys, My main concern is if they can breed with eachother being so noticably diffrent? between the 2 groups that i am reffering..... Its almost like a red belly and yellowbelly cooter and they cant "jive" So why would these if they are in the same boat geneticaly?

 

[EricIvins]

Well thanks alot guys, My main concern is if they can breed with eachother being so noticably diffrent? between the 2 groups that i am reffering..... Its almost like a red belly and yellowbelly cooter and they cant "jive" So why would these if they are in the same boat geneticaly?

Ummmm......Most of the Cherryheads available today are the result of these animals being bred through multiple generations.........

There have been many locality crosses, and they all work out just fine - Including Cherryhead/Northern crosses.......

 

[Hustler]

I thought that was a whole other bag of worms.... I have one that i would suspect may be some form of hybrid but no one has stepped up to the plate with any kind of proof one way or the other?
Have there been documented hybrids? or even noticable hatchling photos?
Im not doubting in any way Im merely trying to figure out my groups and where and IF i should be seperating/trying for breeding as well as buying new stock and compatibility.

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Also stiring up an old thread http://www.tortoiseforum.org/Thread-Original-shipment-cherryheads#axzz1tJHfMdwU
The first 2 photos HAVE to be diffrent races all together... Thats the exact diffrence i was talking about.
Any marbleds i see dont have the Outright yellow spots around the shell at a larger size and there heads look diffrent.

 

[Hustler]

Here is one I just picked up with a wild plastron but again black skin, large arm scales marbeling on the plastron but from the top its a northern?

Is this a hybrid? If not is it still a "northern" Or.....?

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Or this one, Ive been told its a cherry but it looks NOTHING like my brazilian marbles at all? And its also for sure not a northern so.....?

 

[EricIvins]

1st one Northern, 2nd Cherryhead.......The plastron is typical for a Northern animal, and the same can be said for the Cherryhead.......

Marbleing has nothing to do with anything, as it is seen in just about every locality........It's just more common with Cherryheads........

 

[N2TORTS]

first one yup .... Northen, and the second one Cherry head~

 

[Hustler]

Fantastic guys
Up here the "northerns" from what ive seen have all had one black spot in the center of the plastron or just yellow with no dark on them.
Im not trying to be a pest they are just so diffrent from eachother and I would love to understand more the places they are from in the wild.