Did I handle this right?

[Jodie]

I have my leopard hatchlings for sale on fauna and King snake. Here is the email I received, and my response. All I got back is a Thanks!, so am guessing I didn't reach this person. Suggestions on how I could have better communicated would be appreciated.


On Thu, Jun 30, 2016 at 10:43 AM, wrote:

Hi Jodie, I have 3 tortoises indoors in IL in a 3' x 2' tortoise setup. My Herman's and cherry head are 1 years old and I added a hatchling yellow foot a month ago that's doing great. Do you think one of the Leopard hatchlings could be added to the group? That would max out the group for this enclosure. I work from home and I'm sure to give them their baths 3 times a week, spring mix and Mazuri pellets 6 days a week. I make sure the hatchling yellow foot is in the night time sleep area at night and out during the day eats and doesn't get bullied. If you think this is a good fit can you send me pics of the parents and some hatchlings to pick from? Can I be sure the hatchling won't bring any mites or problems into my collection?

No, no, and no. Species should not be mixed at all. Each have different needs, and carry different pathogens.
The red and yellow foots are rain forest animals and need very high humidity, not hot, the hermans needs less humidity and warmer during the day with more cool at night. A leopard needs hot and humid, never cold.
Tortoises are solitary and territorial. Even the same kind should not be kept the way you described. 1 leopard hatchling would be ok alone in that size enclosure for a year or so, but 3 or 4 tortoises would need at least a 10X10 foot outdoor enclosure to thrive.
I am afraid you have been given some very bad information. The Tortoise Forum is a great resource for good up to date care info.
Jodie

 

[Rue]

I think that's a good response...except I wouldn't start with the word 'no'. LOL...if you want to reach people, you don't want to be negative from the first word.

The more I read, the more I get the feeling that 90% of tortoise owners are doing something 'wrong'. Enthusiasts, vets, etc. need to find ways to encourage people to start out more correctly. I am not sure what the solution is. Care sheets are great but either they're too overwhelming to read, or no one is bothering to read them.

I suggest that a pictorial, in addition to a care sheet, might prove helpful.

 

[Jodie]

It is frustrating. I was only going to say no, no and no to start with. I added the rest after thinking for a minute, and deciding to try to help him, if he wanted help. No way I would sell one of my babies knowing that would be how they would be kept.

 

[cmacusa3]

I think it was good and even better that you just didn't say "sure", just to make a sale.

 

[Rue]

That reminds me of why I don't breed animals anymore.

It also reminds me of this story: We have barn cats. They come and go and most are feral. We watch, and we feed them...but I don't do too much more because it's a bit of lost cause (although we will step in with some basic care if required...and if we can catch them). However, I try and find good indoor homes for kittens when possible.

Several years ago I had one woman...a professional...who asked me for a kitten.

"I would like one of your kittens! My son has allergies, but I think I will try to have another one in the house. Maybe he has outgrown his allergies. I will take your kitten for a trial. If it doesn't work out I will return it to you. I will call you shortly, you can drop it off and pick it up from us if we have to return it, right?"

Er, no. No kitten for you. In fact I don't think you should have any animals at all.

 

[Speedy-1]

I think it was fine !

 

[ethan508]

It is good for a breeder to stop a sale if proper care isn't going to be given. Bad information is frustrating for new pet owners and there is a lot of it out there, so I'm glad that you took the time to help inform rather than just responding with 'no'.

It is hard to learn to do things right and it is typically more work than many people are willing to put forth. But the original letter writer did sound like s/he was trying to provide good care based on knowledge s/he was given. That knowledge may have come from bad examples or bad pet store, or outdated care guides. The original letter just didn't know what s/he didn't know. Your response may spur research or not. It is hard to know (but at least I know that I don't know).

 

[Kapidolo Farms]

Based on your on result, no you didn't handle it right if the result you wanted was different than the result you got. That said, the variables of how people respond to direction or help they were not seeking in the first place has left more people scratching their heads than not.

What I have done in like situations is disqualify myself for being a good source for them. Even though that is what I say, what the person invariable hears is they know more than me and I don't want to get caught up being the not smart person. Now they are all ears and listen. I enter the information they need to hear. Single animals, more space, not mixing species, better diet, better enclosure climate control etc. By the time the conversation is over they come away like they were telling me all these things. I still won't make the sale to them.

Did the same kind of thing working a a home improvement store when I didn't like a customer because of how they spoke to me (like the job was me at my best). I would up-sale those customers all kinds of features and extra add on they didn't need for the job as they described it. I know, I can be an manipulative a$$hole at times. But it can serve a purpose. I use my a$$hole special skills for the betterment of the world.

 

[wellington]

I think you did the right thing. I think you started it out wrong with the no's. I get why you did though, it's very frustrating that people don't do research and don't research more then one place.
I think and hope that you did at least put a bug in their head to think about what they are doing and hopefully will check out the forum. You did all you could have done and now just hope for the best. I'm glad your not just about the money, pat yourself on the back for that and once from me. Good breeders care about the animal over the money.

 

[saginawhxc]

If people aren't mature enough to hear the word "no" then they aren't mature enough to own a pet.

 

[dmmj]

I would have told them they could put a dozen leopard tortoises in there, I gots to get paid!

 

[Jodie]

I would have told them they could put a dozen leopard tortoises in there, I gots to get paid!

No, no, no!

 

[Rue]

If people aren't mature enough to hear the word "no" then they aren't mature enough to own a pet.

But people are going to own a pet...so how do "we" educate without alienating?

Even I became a bit alienated regarding tortoise care advice...and I did at least some homework to begin with and hadn't done anything on the no-no list.

 

[saginawhxc]

I think there is a big difference between telling people "no" and really being a jerk. That strikes me as a problem in today's society. Everybody gets too darn emotional when they are told they can't do something.

If I went online and asked people if I could keep my newborn child in my dog crate with my dog somebody would probably report me to CPS. So why do we have to handle somebody that wants to do something stupid with their pets with kids gloves.

People are going to ignore our advice more often than not anyways. So why sugarcoat our advice? I could be wrong here (I'm usually wrong about a lot, just ask my girlfriend), but I think making it beyond clear that some things are simply a horrible idea is the best we can do.

 

[Rue]

You don't have to handle most people with kid gloves...but there is no reason not to be diplomatic either.

And then of course there is the issue of opposing view points...where no one is necessarily wrong...but each party might feel really strongly about their position.

How do you discuss that in a way that moves you forward instead of ending up in a shouting match where everyone stops listening?

 

[Tom]

I think there is a big difference between telling people "no" and really being a jerk. That strikes me as a problem in today's society. Everybody gets too darn emotional when they are told they can't do something.

If I went online and asked people if I could keep my newborn child in my dog crate with my dog somebody would probably report me to CPS. So why do we have to handle somebody that wants to do something stupid with their pets with kids gloves.

People are going to ignore our advice more often than not anyways. So why sugarcoat our advice? I could be wrong here (I'm usually wrong about a lot, just ask my girlfriend), but I think making it beyond clear that some things are simply a horrible idea is the best we can do.

I generally tend to agree with you, but the reality is that too many people are put off by direct, matter-of-fact conversation. If we put people off, they leave or get pissy, and their tortoise doesn't get the help it needs. I'm in this to help the world's tortoises, so I've had to try to learn to be more diplomatic. Sometimes diplomacy doesn't work though, and that is when I tend to just spell it out plainly. I figure that if I can't reach the OP, at least I can try to reach the other people reading.

 

[saginawhxc]

OP here was about somebody looking to buy a tortoise. I do agree that arguments can be made for more inviting tones within a community like this site. Not that I'm trying to say that they are worlds apart, but I do feel like there is a difference.

Please take my entire stance on the issue with a grain of salt. I'm pretty sure I'm emotionally stunted and one of the byproducts of that is sometimes I have trouble understanding how others see and feel. I say things that don't seem bad in my head, but then get confused when people get offended.