Dehydrated Hatchling Didn't Make It :(

Tank'sMom

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I had two hatchlings I obtained back in June-ish? Siblings. I refer to them as "him and her", I know nobody knows. Anyway, when I received them I had posted how badly dehydrated she was at 2-3 days old. Denting and dimpling in her shell. Bad. The other guy was ok.
They've been raised exactly the same. Exactly.
They were in the same enclosure up until a month or so ago because I'd posted that they were in the same enclosure and Tom said I should separate them. Even though I never saw any evidence of bullying, and she seemed to eat more than the healthy one, when Tom commands, I listen.
After separating them she never improved. She got sicker. Up until 2 weeks ago she was lively, active and eating! Just not growing. At all. When I got her she was 25gm. During these past 3 months she has fluctuated 24-26gm. That's it.
Active, happy, even with a bit more personality that her brother. Just won't grow!!! Eating and pooping fine.
Her "brother" has been trucking along and at almost 3 months he's currently just over 60gms.
So yesterday I found her just laying there sleeping.... only she wasn't sleeping. :(
Have you guys heard of this happening? I know about hatchling failure syndrome but the 2 were raised identically and I assure you she ate like a pig. Could the dehydration in her first days of life be the answer? That's scary. And sad.
This is a comparison pic of the two babies a few days ago.
He was 63gms
ImageUploadedByTortoise Forum1408368912.652064.jpg
She was 24gms
ImageUploadedByTortoise Forum1408368974.519468.jpg
 

Tom

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The lack of growth despite eating is one of the classic HFS symptoms. When they are chronically dehydrated as new hatchlings it damages their internal organs. This damage cannot be undone. Some are able to survive it and some aren't.

Also 25 grams is tiny. All my babies hatch at 35-39 grams. I don't recall ever having any that small.

This baby is lucky to have been given such a good chance at survival with such a caring and conscientious owner. In more "average" hands he would probably never have made as far as he did. You are awesome for trying so hard and giving so much.
 

Tank'sMom

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Thanks so much Tom. She was a really cute little thing. Very lively despite her condition. I tried. I hope I did all I could.
The other one was 26gms when I got him and at almost 3 months is 63gms and growing steady. Since you say he was a small hatchling also should I be concerned about him??
 

Jodie

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That is identical to my story. The pictures of your 2 and the assigned sex are even the same. So sad. Sorry for your loss.
 

ascott

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There is a reason that some species have so many eggs....some will make it and some will not, this is just the way it goes....there is no way to know why that baby died unless you have a necropsy done.....there are so many unknown reasons that could have created this outcome....
 

Tom

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Thanks so much Tom. She was a really cute little thing. Very lively despite her condition. I tried. I hope I did all I could.
The other one was 26gms when I got him and at almost 3 months is 63gms and growing steady. Since you say he was a small hatchling also should I be concerned about him??

If they both got the dry desert treatment, then yes there is cause to worry. However, there is nothing you can do about it, but what you are already doing and that is providing optimal, hydration, nutrition, humidity and temperatures. It is common for some members of a dry started clutch to survive and others not. Who can say why? Maybe the ones that survived got an extra drop of water on the lettuce. Maybe they were more inclined to drink a lot on the weekly soak day. Maybe they were more timid and stayed hidden away from the desiccating bulb more of the time than the one that died.
 

Tom

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There is a reason that some species have so many eggs....some will make it and some will not, this is just the way it goes....there is no way to know why that baby died unless you have a necropsy done.....there are so many unknown reasons that could have created this outcome....


I don't think this philosophy applies here. The reason sulcatas lay so many eggs is most likely due to predation and not dehydration. If the entire clutch that these two babies came from had been incubated, hatched and started by me, or Lance, or Austin, or any number of other knowledgeable breeders here on this forum I can guarantee you that they would all be thriving and growing.

Its not like these babies just weren't fit. They were not given proper hatchling care before Tank'sMom got them. I guess my opposition to your statement is that this is not just something that mysteriously happens and that's the way the world is. This is something that is known and preventable with the right care. This is something that was done to these babies.
 

ascott

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I don't think this philosophy applies here. The reason sulcatas lay so many eggs is most likely due to predation and not dehydration. If the entire clutch that these two babies came from had been incubated, hatched and started by me, or Lance, or Austin, or any number of other knowledgeable breeders here on this forum I can guarantee you that they would all be thriving and growing.

Its not like these babies just weren't fit. They were not given proper hatchling care before Tank'sMom got them. I guess my opposition to your statement is that this is not just something that mysteriously happens and that's the way the world is. This is something that is known and preventable with the right care. This is something that was done to these babies.

This is mere opinion, you have no idea what "actually" took place with these tortoise, no idea...pure speculation. I firmly disagree with your "opinion" here Tom. I believe that what is happening here is that an experience tortoise caregiver is offering up opinion and in doing so you are incorrect for doing this....you know as well as I do...that unless an absolute cause of death is given....you are guessing as is anyone else...we can all fluff this in any way you or other want to make someone "feel" better...but you know no more than I the exact reason for death. Now, if you are angry with me I am fine with that....I am kinda surprised as the bullish stand you have elected to take...not that it threatens me in any way (;)) but can create confusion in some that are newer members....your turn Tom :rolleyes:
 

bouaboua

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Front row seating for the debate.......
 

Tank'sMom

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This is mere opinion, you have no idea what "actually" took place with these tortoise, no idea...pure speculation. I firmly disagree with your "opinion" here Tom. I believe that what is happening here is that an experience tortoise caregiver is offering up opinion and in doing so you are incorrect for doing this....you know as well as I do...that unless an absolute cause of death is given....you are guessing as is anyone else...we can all fluff this in any way you or other want to make someone "feel" better...but you know no more than I the exact reason for death. Now, if you are angry with me I am fine with that....I am kinda surprised as the bullish stand you have elected to take...not that it threatens me in any way (;)) but can create confusion in some that are newer members....your turn Tom :rolleyes:
Actually, no offense, but Tom was assisting from the beginning. He knows all the facts regarding these two particular babies. How they hatched, the condition they were in when I obtained them at 2-3 days old (severely dehydrated, especially the one that didn't make it) and all their care since.
"Survival of the fittest" is a reality and in many species I do believe this is why there are many offspring in many species. But if Tom says he can maintain a clutch without loosing one single baby, I believe him. He gave me great information and help from the beginning and she probably would not have made it as far as she did if not for his advice. If she'd been left in the conditions they were found (a surprise clutch in a friends backyard) they would surely have met their demise much sooner than this.
I'm glad his advice seems to be keeping the other baby happy and growing.
 

ascott

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I'm glad his advice seems to be keeping the other baby happy and growing.

You are keeping that baby going, please don't mistake that. You see, while I do appreciate and dig Tom(;))....some of the comments made simply are not backed up by anything other than opinion, hell, most of the tortoise world is fueled by opinion and observation....I too have my own opinions, as do many caregivers here...that being said---I do not think Tom knows any less...but certainly not any more.....every person here that offers information is as instrumental as the next.....

Again, there is absolutely no way to know why that baby passed without necropsy, the other in the same condition, as shared, has not passed....now, I believe that humidity is essential....I believe that access to water is essential ,we offer it much more in captivity than would any truly "arid" species (and I use that descriptive to identify the geographical locations weather...above ground) ever come across....yet folks can soak, can offer humid conditions from the start and a tort will still pass....some things are not apparent....some things we can only speculate on....most speculation is based on what we experience, know, research and such....so I support Toms belief that a tort started and maintained in optimum conditions will likely make it fine...however, there are times even perfection proves ill equipped.....

Tom is a good source of information, absolutely. He just is not the only reliable source of information..there are many many experienced, knowledgable and willing members here that have very valuable information to offer.....please do keep an open mind...and open mind is able to catch lots more than a narrow one....

I totally hope your fighting baby absolutely makes it, survives and then thrives....
 

Tank'sMom

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Tom is a good source of information, absolutely. He just is not the only reliable source of information..there are many many experienced, knowledgable and willing members here that have very valuable information to offer.....please do keep an open mind...and open mind is able to catch lots more than a narrow one....

Oh believe me, I recognize that there are many, MANY, knowledgeable and experienced keepers on here, yourself included. I'd be in deep too-doo without MANY of you. Back when I had my first hatchling, about 15 years ago, I, nor anyone at the convention that I am aware of, knew anything about this concept of high humidity when it came to keeping baby Sulcatas. Granted, my little girl made it 6 years before she was tragically stolen from me, I can only guess that the natural high humidity in my "neck of the woods" had something to do with it.
I appreciate EVERYONE'S advice. I'm extremely grateful. It just happened that Tom was one who reached out and showed an interest in my issue. I appreciate that I didn't have to seek him out. He was just there.
 

Abdulla6169

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Oh believe me, I recognize that there are many, MANY, knowledgeable and experienced keepers on here, yourself included. I'd be in deep too-doo without MANY of you. Back when I had my first hatchling, about 15 years ago, I, nor anyone at the convention that I am aware of, knew anything about this concept of high humidity when it came to keeping baby Sulcatas. Granted, my little girl made it 6 years before she was tragically stolen from me, I can only guess that the natural high humidity in my "neck of the woods" had something to do with it.
I appreciate EVERYONE'S advice. I'm extremely grateful. It just happened that Tom was one who reached out and showed an interest in my issue. I appreciate that I didn't have to seek him out. He was just there.
I'm glad @Tom is here a lot, he makes our tort parent lives A LOT easier. I hope everything is good wherever you are, and don't hesitate asking us for anything :)
 

Tank'sMom

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don't hesitate asking us for anything :)
Oh I certainly will not. I ask a lot of questions, and get a lot of good answers from everyone here. I wish there were sites like this one for my other exotics. This forum is so great because you do have so many experienced keepers willing to openly share their information. Even if that information happens to be debated. Everyone learns from it.
This has not been my experience in previous decades of dealing with exotics. So many experienced people are not willing to open up and allow others to "pick their brain." Newbies are blown off, fights are started that end in a single not-so-experienced person being "beat down", and the experienced keepers are in it for themselves. You guys are in it for the precious "pets" that we all hold dear and treasure. That is what is most important. It's a rare finding in the world of dealing with exotic animals. You guys have something special here. ;)
 

Tom

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This is mere opinion, you have no idea what "actually" took place with these tortoise, no idea...pure speculation.

As Tank's mom pointed out, I actually do have some idea what "actually" took place with these tortoises, because she told me in detail. You are correct in that I do not, and can not, know the exact COD without a necropsy, BUT... if it walks like a duck, looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, well... you know. I have seen this sort of situation many times and seen necropsy results from it too. It is physically possible that this baby is part of the tiny fraction of a percent of babies that just are not going to make it very long after hatching, but given this tortoise's history, the COD is pretty clear to me, even though it is just an opinion. So I wouldn't call it "pure speculation" when I had a whole lot of detailed info. Maybe we could agree to call it something else? Maybe an educated guess?

Out of the hundreds of sulcata babies I've produced only one did not make it. They normally hatch at about 90 days with my incubator and temps, and this one took 182 days if memory serves. My babies usually hatch at 35-39 grams. This one hatched at 22 grams. There was clearly something wrong with it from day one. It survived for a couple of months but finally died. That's one out of several hundred. This ratio seems very different to me than "...some will make it and some will not, this is just the way it goes...".

Angela, You know darn well this will not make me angry with you. You are never insulting or belittling when you challenge me or anyone else, and because of that, I find your challenges exhilarating! You MAKE me back up my statements and keep me honest and careful with my wording, as I know you will not let me slide. I appreciate that about you and its just one reason I'm glad you choose to participate in this forum.
 

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