Cycling

[smarch]

Ok I have ALWAYS had a problem with this, always.
In the past I've been pretty bad about water changes so I knew I was to blame, but i'm much better now, Weekly changes, for my 10gal. I just recently got 2 Shubunkin goldfish, I love the little guys and yes I do realize I' pushing the amount of fish in such a tank, but they're young right now and as they grow to adult size I plan to be upgraded in size massively.
Anyways they've been in there a few days, it has a 20-30 gal tetra overhang waterfall filter in it. The filter has some strange plastic biolocial filter piece and I bought a filter sponge to put in so also give the microorganisms a place to stick, with a carbon cartridge in the middle of the 2 (temporary for now since I just added them... I've been told carbon filtration isn't needed? I can keep using them if I was told wrong or misunderstood).
But already i'm back into the theres no bio-filtration going on, i'm dead in the process of the nitrogen cycle right at the start. No Nitrates or Nitrites, the Ammonia isn't high, but the test was .50ppm (liquid API tesk kit) but I know it should be at 0. I should specify that although the fish are new its been running for quite some time without fish being cleaned several times as to not disrupt any bio-filtration going on... but apparently there is none..

Can someonetell me how to make the nitrogen cycle happen. I joined a fish forum just to be explained things beyond technical and it didn't help at all. I can get a new filter if one of the external canister ones would be better. I treat with PH balancer since another important thing is our water is reverse osmosis filtered: EVERYTHING gets taken out, hardness, any buffering properties for PH, basically anything that could kill them is gone, but so is any stability. So I wonder if the water being so filtered causes problems too, I only use aquarium salt to condition the water since theres nothing in it, but I can get a god conditioner if you know any good for my super filtered water and think it will help.

playsand as substrate, one driftwood chunk a few live plants that have done well without UV lighting but also fake plants in case the fish decide to destroy my live plants. 2 bubble stones. and I cant think of anything else I haven't stated... in fact I probably gave way more than needed but I wanted to give you the full picture. I just added them Monday.
I also had to add one of my tiny very low wattage betta heaters because the water temp was getting sub 60 low in my room and they were being inactive, this is only a temporary cold weather thing though, I know heat+goldfish= all sorts of risks.

 

[johnsonnboswell]

You could just let them be inactive and feed less. That may be light regulated, too, not just temps. My pond fish are quite active at those temps

I don't have the answer to your question. I've had goldfish for a long time, indoors and out, and don't use measuring tools or analyze water. What I know about tanks: they do better when they get sunlight through the window, the more space the better, algae is actually good as biological filtration as well as food, ammonia is an issue and needs to be filtered out, a good filter is necessary and makes your life so much easier & theirs better, water changes upset the water balance. Bare tanks are good. Don't know if that helps.

 

[Prairie Mom]

Hello smarch, I'm not judging your aquarium size. I started out with two tiny goldfish in a ten gallon, but changed water often, and upgraded them to a big tank when they had some pretty big growth spurts. Save up your dough and watch out for a good tank sale, because if all goes well, they'll need a big tank fast

I'm not a fish expert. It sounds like @wellington is, so maybe you could get in touch with her.

Is your question "how to start the nitrogen cycle?"
I found this really easy to understand website that explains the cycling process really well:
http://thegoldfishtank.com/goldfish-tank-setup-water/
Cycling a fish tank means just letting the good bacteria colony grow and eat up the ammonia and nitrites. Eventually the colony will grow and even out your water levels. When you start a brand new aquarium, there is no healthy bacteria to manage the breaking down of old food and poop. The water may also look a little white and cloudy.

Cycling your tank
You can cycle a fish tank with live fish in it like you are doing. -It's hard on the fish, but that's the only way I've ever done it. When the website says "add ammonia," they are talking about bottled aquarium ammonia that you can get from pet stores. The website talks about "adding Ammonia" which you don't need to do because the left over food and fish poop are adding the ammonia for you. Just carefully watch the ammonia and nitrogen levels and change a little water daily if you have to, while the aquarium is cycling so it doesn't kill your fish.

In my experience, the smaller tanks have taken about a month for the cycling process to be done, and I can finally rest from having to check the levels in the aquarium. Bigger tanks with more water can take much longer.

Some things you can do to speed up the cycling process (in other words help build good bacteria faster):
- is to steal some water from your old aquarium/bowl.
- add some bottled "start zyme." There are products like this
http://www.amazon.com/Jungle-AJUNL4004-Start-Liquid-4-Ounce/dp/B00025670K/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1422923153&sr=8-1&keywords=fish start zyme --my Walmart even carries this.
But for the most part you have to let the water do it's thang and try to keep your fish from being poisoned during the process.

There was a healthy debate about water changes on this thread http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/small-frequent-water-changes.103460/ if you want to check it out and see what different people are saying. -I'm obviously PRO, but some people are against water changes and have a pretty strong stance against them. Just like with tortoises, it doesn't hurt to check out both opinions.

 

[smarch]

Hello smarch, I'm not judging your aquarium size. I started out with two tiny goldfish in a ten gallon, but changed water often, and upgraded them to a big tank when they had some pretty big growth spurts. Save up your dough and watch out for a good tank sale, because if all goes well, they'll need a big tank fast

I'm not a fish expert. It sounds like @wellington is, so maybe you could get in touch with her.

Is your question "how to start the nitrogen cycle?"
I found this really easy to understand website that explains the cycling process really well:
http://thegoldfishtank.com/goldfish-tank-setup-water/
Cycling a fish tank means just letting the good bacteria colony grow and eat up the ammonia and nitrites. Eventually the colony will grow and even out your water levels. When you start a brand new aquarium, there is no healthy bacteria to manage the breaking down of old food and poop. The water may also look a little white and cloudy.

Cycling your tank
You can cycle a fish tank with live fish in it like you are doing. -It's hard on the fish, but that's the only way I've ever done it. When the website says "add ammonia," they are talking about bottled aquarium ammonia that you can get from pet stores. The website talks about "adding Ammonia" which you don't need to do because the left over food and fish poop are adding the ammonia for you. Just carefully watch the ammonia and nitrogen levels and change a little water daily if you have to, while the aquarium is cycling so it doesn't kill your fish.

In my experience, the smaller tanks have taken about a month for the cycling process to be done, and I can finally rest from having to check the levels in the aquarium. Bigger tanks with more water can take much longer.

Some things you can do to speed up the cycling process (in other words help build good bacteria faster):
- is to steal some water from your old aquarium/bowl.
- add some bottled "start zyme." There are products like this
http://www.amazon.com/Jungle-AJUNL4004-Start-Liquid-4-Ounce/dp/B00025670K/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1422923153&sr=8-1&keywords=fish start zyme --my Walmart even carries this.
But for the most part you have to let the water do it's thang and try to keep your fish from being poisoned during the process.

There was a healthy debate about water changes on this thread http://www.tortoiseforum.org/threads/small-frequent-water-changes.103460/ if you want to check it out and see what different people are saying. -I'm obviously PRO, but some people are against water changes and have a pretty strong stance against them. Just like with tortoises, it doesn't hurt to check out both opinions.

I know they'll need a bigger tank soon enough, but for now its what I have the space for, and i'm going to have to look for one that's taller and wider rather than longer because of the surface it rests on. And I don't want to spend a good chunk of money on an in between tank when I plan to move out to my own place in a year or 2. I'm currently trying to find a place where I can set up Nank's old 20gal temporarily.
Its not a new tank and hasn't been completely un set up for almost a year now, its just been running without fish since around last April. Have not cleaned the biolocical filter inset since even before that, so I guess my healthy bacterias just hate me lol. I have a powder that's supposed to help speed up the process, but like I've said I've never actually successfully had the tank cycled (which makes the fact that I had one fish for 2 years an amazing feat)
I definitely keep up with water changes, in a 10gal aquarium and having goldfish theres really no other choice if you want living fish. I imagine it is possible to not need water changed but needing a very large tank and a carefully chosen out community to sustain that.

 

[Tom]

In a lightly stocked tank with adequate filtration, it takes around 6 weeks to "complete" the nitrogen cycle. In essence this is how long it takes to get the right balance of beneficial bacteria in the right ration for the amount of waste being produced. I would not se RO water exclusively. No more than half. I would use bottled water or treated tap water. Its better for your fish to have all the minerals in the water, assuming your tap water isn't atrocious in your area.

Here is what is happening in simple terms. You drop fish into a "sterile" new tank. There is not a bank of bacteria ready to eat up the waste produced by the fish. The fish immediately begin going potty (ammonia) and the waste just sits there. This is why they should not be kept in bowls. This waste encourages bacterial growth as the bacteria now have a food source (fish poop and pee). The fish keep making more ammonia and the ammonia loving bacteria (Nitrosomonas sp.) basically have a party and go "WOOO HOOO!!! FREE FOOD!!!" It is this bacterial bloom that causes the cloudiness that you will soon see. People think the water is cloudy because of ammonia. Ammonia is clear and colorless. The water is cloudy due to the bacterial bloom feasting on the ammonia. The Nitrosomonas bacteria "eat" the ammonia (essentially removing it), but their waste product is nitrites. Nitrites are even more toxic to the fish. As soon as these nitrites begin to be produced, you have a second type of bacteria (Nitrobacter sp.) that "eat" nitrites jump in numbers and join the feast. Ammonia hampers Nitrobacter growth and nitrites hamper Nitrosomonas growth. The whole tank becomes a big cess pool of waste products for a while. In time things sort themselves out and you have the correct number of each type of bacteria to eat the amount of waste being produced and we call the tank "balanced". At this point toxin levels are now very low and you have a healthy tank that is "cycled". Takes about six weeks. The end product of the fish waste being consumed and converted into waste products by these two types of bacteria is nitrates. Nitrates are basically plant fertilizer. Nitrates build very slowly in comparison to ammonia and nitrites, and nitrate reduction is the primary reason for our partial water changes. This is why you don't tend to see algae in a new tank for the first 8-10 weeks. There is no plant food made for it yet.

Now with that understanding, you have to evaluate whether or not you have provided enough surface area to create big enough bacterial banks to deal with the amount of waste your fish are producing in your volume of water. In a small back hanging filter, with goldfish (big waste producers), in 10 gallons of water, probably not. Adding a canister with lots of bio filtration media will help. Adding water volume (a bigger tank) will help too.

Now removing the ammonia with chemical drops or filtration devices will interrupt and prolong this whole process. Big water changes (frequently done to remove the cloudiness) will prolong the process. Not having enough biological filtration (basically providing surface area for bacterial attachment) will prolong or event prevent the process.

Having mechanical filtration can reduce the waste load for your bacteria to deal with. Using activated carbon as chemical filtration does remove some bad stuff, but it can remove good stuff too.

Anyhow... I hope that helps. Come back with questions for anything that is not clear.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

I am also on a site called "MONSTER FISH KEEPERS". The level of waste created by a turtle would be along the lines of a big, very big fish. There, there are many guides for cycling a tank. Some with adding tiny amounts of pure ammonia each day...Some folks cycle with a few hardier fishes, such as Goldfish. I start off a new tank with an establishes filter from another tank. That's simple. I have eleven large tanks running and each one has two large filters. Read and it will be easy to understand the nitrate to nitrite conversion, etc. Good luck.

 

[Tom]

One thing I forgot. The Nitrogen Cycle: Plants use nitrates to build new tissues and grow. Fish eat the plants (or other fish and organisms that eat the plants) and produce ammonia. Bacteria eat the ammonia making nitrites. Other bacteria eat the nitrite, making nitrates. Now start over...

Its a pretty cool little recycling system, if you ask me...

Keeping it all in balance in a given small space (aquarium) is the challenge for a fish keeper.

 

[smarch]

In a lightly stocked tank with adequate filtration, it takes around 6 weeks to "complete" the nitrogen cycle. In essence this is how long it takes to get the right balance of beneficial bacteria in the right ration for the amount of waste being produced. I would not se RO water exclusively. No more than half. I would use bottled water or treated tap water. Its better for your fish to have all the minerals in the water, assuming your tap water isn't atrocious in your area.

Here is what is happening in simple terms. You drop fish into a "sterile" new tank. There is not a bank of bacteria ready to eat up the waste produced by the fish. The fish immediately begin going potty (ammonia) and the waste just sits there. This is why they should not be kept in bowls. This waste encourages bacterial growth as the bacteria now have a food source (fish poop and pee). The fish keep making more ammonia and the ammonia loving bacteria (Nitrosomonas sp.) basically have a party and go "WOOO HOOO!!! FREE FOOD!!!" It is this bacterial bloom that causes the cloudiness that you will soon see. People think the water is cloudy because of ammonia. Ammonia is clear and colorless. The water is cloudy due to the bacterial bloom feasting on the ammonia. The Nitrosomonas bacteria "eat" the ammonia (essentially removing it), but their waste product is nitrites. Nitrites are even more toxic to the fish. As soon as these nitrites begin to be produced, you have a second type of bacteria (Nitrobacter sp.) that "eat" nitrites jump in numbers and join the feast. Ammonia hampers Nitrobacter growth and nitrites hamper Nitrosomonas growth. The whole tank becomes a big cess pool of waste products for a while. In time things sort themselves out and you have the correct number of each type of bacteria to eat the amount of waste being produced and we call the tank "balanced". At this point toxin levels are now very low and you have a healthy tank that is "cycled". Takes about six weeks. The end product of the fish waste being consumed and converted into waste products by these two types of bacteria is nitrates. Nitrates are basically plant fertilizer. Nitrates build very slowly in comparison to ammonia and nitrites, and nitrate reduction is the primary reason for our partial water changes. This is why you don't tend to see algae in a new tank for the first 8-10 weeks. There is no plant food made for it yet.

Now with that understanding, you have to evaluate whether or not you have provided enough surface area to create big enough bacterial banks to deal with the amount of waste your fish are producing in your volume of water. In a small back hanging filter, with goldfish (big waste producers), in 10 gallons of water, probably not. Adding a canister with lots of bio filtration media will help. Adding water volume (a bigger tank) will help too.

Now removing the ammonia with chemical drops or filtration devices will interrupt and prolong this whole process. Big water changes (frequently done to remove the cloudiness) will prolong the process. Not having enough biological filtration (basically providing surface area for bacterial attachment) will prolong or event prevent the process.

Having mechanical filtration can reduce the waste load for your bacteria to deal with. Using activated carbon as chemical filtration does remove some bad stuff, but it can remove good stuff too.

Anyhow... I hope that helps. Come back with questions for anything that is not clear.

Thank you Tom, that helped me understand the process much better than going into way more technical details than needed like I've been explained to in the past.

We don't have tap we have well water, but our well is so deep in the bed rock that we have fluctuating levels of arsenic in our water so we don't drink it, although its not at a dangerous level, just the fact that its there isn't good, but we still shower and brush our teeth with the "arsenic water". That's why I've always used the RO filtered water. I've been told the arsenic would be just as bad for fish as us, but I also don't think there's actually enough arsenic in the water to matter... is that worth trying? Because I know the water being filtered to purity is why I have such instability in the tank (especially PH, and hardness)
Do you have a suggestion for a good canister filter to look into purchasing?
I try to avoid chemicals to treat ammonia because I know it hinders/haults the process, so I haveny used any yet, I also haven't yet done a water change since adding the fish since I hope it will give the bacteria a chance to get settled. I'm working on a bigger tank, and currently trying to find a place I could Stink Nank's old 20gal to use now since its better than the 20 gal being used now, as I don't want to spend money to get a semi-big tank that will just be nothing when I move out in the coming year or 2 and get a really big tank.
With activated carbon taking out bad as well as good do you suggest using it or not?

 

[Tom]

Just about all tap water has some level of arsenic in it. Both my well and my city tap, but its minuscule and well below "acceptable" levels. Thats up to your judgement. You can try to use 5 gallon jugs of bottled water if you are more comfortable that way.

Lots of things affect pH. All the biological processes, the minerals in the water (or lack there of in RO water), food or decorations, etc... The ability of regular mineral laden tap water to resist pH changes can be a good thing in some cases. Buffering capacity, they call it. I've always used tap and its always worked well for me. I just age it 24+ hours, heat it and treat it first.

I'm not up on the current crop of canister filters. I have a Fluval under my 135 gallon in my living room and no complaints.

I do recommend using activated carbon. I like that it removes yellowing tannins and that sort of thing. I think over all it is a beneficial thing to use. I don't use it all the time, but I throw some in when I remember to change my filter pads in my back hanger.

 

[ZEROPILOT]

I also use carbon. +1 on Fluval being great. I have model 303 x2 cleaning most of my tanks. You'll find that adding some crushed coral to the media will both slightly raise the PH. (I Keep mine at around 7.6.) and will also buffer the PH and remain stable, longer. A lot of crushed coral will raise the PH quite a bit. This would be very stressful to a fish. ( Raising the PH rapidly) Maybe also for a turtle? In a pinch, you can also use baking soda. It will raise PH, but it wont be stable. Also, there are aquarium products that claim to remove harmful metals from water. I have no first hand experience with them, but I've seen them.

 

[smarch]

Just about all tap water has some level of arsenic in it. Both my well and my city tap, but its minuscule and well below "acceptable" levels. Thats up to your judgement. You can try to use 5 gallon jugs of bottled water if you are more comfortable that way.

Lots of things affect pH. All the biological processes, the minerals in the water (or lack there of in RO water), food or decorations, etc... The ability of regular mineral laden tap water to resist pH changes can be a good thing in some cases. Buffering capacity, they call it. I've always used tap and its always worked well for me. I just age it 24+ hours, heat it and treat it first.

I'm not up on the current crop of canister filters. I have a Fluval under my 135 gallon in my living room and no complaints.

I do recommend using activated carbon. I like that it removes yellowing tannins and that sort of thing. I think over all it is a beneficial thing to use. I don't use it all the time, but I throw some in when I remember to change my filter pads in my back hanger.

Come to think of it I wonder if the carbon is why my water didn't go full yellow when I added the driftwood.
I'm a little nervous to test our well tap on fish since I have no idea how much arsenic there actually is and don't want to murder my little guys, but with currently having them in a smaller tank than they should I know affording the 5 gallon jugs as often as I would need them would cause problems. I think i'll use a half RO half tap that's sat out mix, itll help with the paranoia, I mean I drink the water all the time in the shower or if i'm too lazy to get up to the RO's faucet and it even tastes better, so its not like i'm just throwing it on animals, its th water I use to soak Nank since microwaving water sounds like the fastest way to make it way too hot and burn a tortoise... its the idea that the fish live in it that alarms me, since I know how entirely sensitive the water balance is. It'll probably help the cycling too, and stability because my water likes to spike sometimes.