Could stress cause pyramiding?

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OurZoo

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No really! Could stress cause a Leopard Tortoise to pyramid? Here's why I ask . . .
Son & daughter-in-law went to visit a co-worker's new home - the couple had a Leopard (about 1 year old) and a new puppy - both left unattended (a few days before my son was there) and puppy tried to use the tortoise as a chew toy:( Anyway my son didn't feel the situation was going to improve so he offered to buy the Leopard and bring it to me to care for. (34 yrs old and he still thinks Mom can fix anything!)
So - when he (?) arrived the bottom edge of back of his shell, from 1 leg around over the tail to the other leg was chewed, looked like a chewed rawhide. There is also a small chip out of the front of the shell, between the neck and front right leg. No damage to skin areas and no punctures in the top shell or underneath. We've had him (Tiger) for about 6 months now and with soaking, being very careful about his pens (inside & outside), & his food Tiger is really coming around, bright eyed and surprisingly friendly.
Now back to my question . . . Tiger had a little pyramiding when we got him, but within the last 6 months his shell has really become pyramided, does have gorgeous coloring though. I feel we have provided all the right conditions to stop or at least slow down the pyramiding, but that doesn't seem to be the case. So I ask, could the stress of his first home be the cause?
 
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Maggie Cummings

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I don't keep Leopards, but I would say no, stress can't cause pyramiding. BUT...Leopards in captivity are generally pyramided. And I mean seriously pyramided. So I wouldn't think you caused it, I personally would think that it's pretty much normal for a captive Leo to pyramid...
 

TortieLuver

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I have not read any research about stress causing pyramiding. I am aware of diet and humidity, but not stress. Do you think he has now acclimated to his surroundings now? Do you have any pics? Some Leopards are a bit bumpy.0
 

OurZoo

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maggie3fan said:
I don't keep Leopards, but I would say no, stress can't cause pyramiding. BUT...Leopards in captivity are generally pyramided. And I mean seriously pyramided. So I wouldn't think you caused it, I personally would think that it's pretty much normal for a captive Leo to pyramid...

Thank you! That does make me feel better:shy:

TortieLuver said:
I have not read any research about stress causing pyramiding. I am aware of diet and humidity, but not stress. Do you think he has now acclimated to his surroundings now? Do you have any pics? Some Leopards are a bit bumpy.0

Thanks, I have also read the thoughts on diet and humidity and those are 2 of the things I've been trying to improve in Tiger's life. I'll post some pictures tomorrow (still haven't completely got the hang of posting pics, with ease) he is rather a good looking tortoise, bumps and chews and all!
 

DeanS

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I believe Tyler showed a leopard that was pyramided (and WC)...interesting!
 

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DeanS said:
I believe Tyler showed a leopard that was pyramided (and WC)...interesting!

We don't know that it was wild caught. We just know it was imported from Africa. There are tons of them captive over there. I've never seen one in the wild pyramided and I looked.

OurZoo said:
Now back to my question . . . Tiger had a little pyramiding when we got him, but within the last 6 months his shell has really become pyramided, does have gorgeous coloring though. I feel we have provided all the right conditions to stop or at least slow down the pyramiding, but that doesn't seem to be the case. So I ask, could the stress of his first home be the cause?

No. Stress does not cause pyramiding. Pyramiding is CAUSED by growth in the absence of sufficient humidity. Improper diet and other factors only exacerbate the problem. The pattern for shell growth is established in the tortoises first few weeks of life and pyramiding is very difficult to stop once it starts.

Do you have a proper humid hide box? Humid substrate? Warm temps round the clock? What's the humidity in the enclosure?
 
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stells

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Here is my theory... if a tortoise is sick and stressed... then it will stop growing (happened to me with an Ibera that passed a stone)... when the tortoise then feels better it will start having growth spurts... then it can pyramid... (not happened to me thankfully)(but have seen it elsewhere)...

I don't believe that all shell growth is established in the first few WEEKS... i think that info is abit off... i have some of last years hatchlings here that are grown smooth... but they are still small... and if i sold them on and someone got one of the MANY factors of pyramiding wrong... i wouldn't be surprised if they pyramided even if they are smooth now... it can and does happen... its harder to pyramid a tortoise that is growing smooth... but not impossible... therefore shell growth is not established at a few weeks old... Pyramiding isn't set in stone once it starts... it can be stopped to a degree...
 

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Might a 3-yo gopher, that is very smooth, start suddenly pyramiding, if moved to a drier climate (on this case, Louisiana to Utah), or is this more likely a diet issue?
 

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Terry Allan Hall said:
Might a 3-yo gopher, that is very smooth, start suddenly pyramiding, if moved to a drier climate (on this case, Louisiana to Utah), or is this more likely a diet issue?

At three years and totally smooth, I think it would be very unlikely to start pyramiding, regardless of diet. 6 months, maybe. A year, possible. At three, I doubt it. Back in the day we would get small wild caught imports of both Leopards and Sulcatas. We'd put them in the same enclosures (after quarantine and vet treatment) as our captive raised, pyramided tortoises. They'd all get the same routine. Same heat, same diet, same sunshine on occasion, etc... The w/c would continue growing smooth and the captives would continue pyramiding. This always perplexed me and never made any sense until I learned about the humidity thing AND how early growth, right after hatching, establishes the pattern for the rest of that tortoises life.
 

egyptiandan

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The simple answer is yes stress can cause pyramiding. But I don't think it caused it in this instance. In this instance (with the tortoise having shell damage that needed to be fixed by the body) the pyramiding was most likely caused by not enough of what was needed to grow bone (calcium, phosphorus and vitamin D3). It is a big drain on those three to heal a shell and if a tortoise grows right afterwards the need for those 3 is huge (much bigger than most people think). So without a huge increase in all 3, growth has no choice but to be pyramided. To stop the pyramiding your going to have to give double what your giving now for supplements and have that same supplement in a small dish in the enclosure so it's always available.

Now back to stress :) Stress can reduce the function of organs which in turn can prevent the processing of a high enough level of the 3 things needed to grow bone. So unless your doing what most people would consider over doing it with supplements, your going to get a pyramided tortoise if your tortoise is stressed.

Danny
 

Seiryu

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egyptiandan said:
Now back to stress :) Stress can reduce the function of organs which in turn can prevent the processing of a high enough level of the 3 things needed to grow bone. So unless your doing what most people would consider over doing it with supplements, your going to get a pyramided tortoise if your tortoise is stressed.

Danny

So you're saying people over exaggerate how much supplements shouldn't be given? I mean some people say D3 shouldn't be given unless they are inside period, and only once a week if so. Are you saying it's terribly hard to over do d3 in a growing tortoise? And maybe some people aren't giving enough supplementation because of the "general" consensus of supplements shouldn't be given often?
 

Tom

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stells said:
Here is my theory... if a tortoise is sick and stressed... then it will stop growing (happened to me with an Ibera that passed a stone)... when the tortoise then feels better it will start having growth spurts... then it can pyramid... (not happened to me thankfully)(but have seen it elsewhere)...

I don't believe that all shell growth is established in the first few WEEKS... i think that info is abit off... i have some of last years hatchlings here that are grown smooth... but they are still small... and if i sold them on and someone got one of the MANY factors of pyramiding wrong... i wouldn't be surprised if they pyramided even if they are smooth now... it can and does happen... its harder to pyramid a tortoise that is growing smooth... but not impossible... therefore shell growth is not established at a few weeks old... Pyramiding isn't set in stone once it starts... it can be stopped to a degree...

If you want to nit-pick fine points, then I'll nit pick them with you.

I din't say ALL shell growth for eternity is established in the first few weeks. I said the "pattern" for shell growth is established in that time frame. Didn't say it couldn't change. I WILL say that after a certain point in the growth and development, you can NOT make a smooth sulcata or Leopard pyramid. I believe this point is somewhere around 6-8", but maybe smaller as our w/c 4" torts never pyramided.

I won't argue about Mediterranean tortoise shell growth. The few of these that I raised from hatchlings all grew up smooth. The majority of the ones I've had were already older and mostly w/c. What you do over there with entirely different species has very little to do with our discussion here on LEOPARD tortoises.

I have also seen with hundreds, if not thousands, of Leopards and sulcatas that once they reach a certain size, they start to smooth out on their own with no change in conditions. The pyramiding becomes less exaggerated. This seems to coincide with the time and size they would have attained in the wild when they start coming above ground and staying exposed for longer and longer time periods.

There is a point I'd like to emphasize about every time you and I get into this discussion. I am not telling you that YOUR experiences with YOUR chosen (and different, by the way) species in YOUR country and YOUR enclosures is wrong. Why then do you insist on telling me and everyone else that MY observations from MY tortoises, in MY country and MY enclosures is wrong? I just realized that in typing this last paragraph that THIS is why I'm so irritated and defensive with you. This is the same discussion I had for for three pages with some other guy, before I realized he was only talking about his Egyptian tortoises in his own home. I conceded immediately as I know nothing of Egyptians OR how to raise one smoothly or not. I'll tell you what I told him, raise a smooth Leopard or Sulcata from a hatchling and then we'll have something to talk about. Until one or the other of us actually does this, we are both just arguing about our opinions, based on our different experiences with different species in totally different environments on totally different continents. I've got a head start on you as my sulcatas are a month old now and still smooth as a babies bottom. Get going Kelly. Raise a smooth Leo or Sulcata using YOUR methods and then you can validly shoot down my arguments once and for all.
 

egyptiandan

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Exactly :D at least for the critical first year of a tortoise's life. You can over do vitamin D3 once they are close to adult size and aren't growing very much, but until than it's very hard to do.
Also you have to take in the ultimate adult size of a tortoise. The larger the species is the greater the demand for the 3 things needed to grow bone.

Danny
 
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stells

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Tom... who is nitpicking... i thought everyone was allowed an opinion... based on things I have experienced...your experiences might be different... BUT i can still go by my own...

So now you would like me to go out get a Leopard or Sulcata... raise it in a cool climate (didn't you start a thread about that once)... and limit my space for my younger tortoises which have plenty of room to grow into but won't if i start getting Leopards and Sulcatas... i had the chance on a couple of hatchling Sulcata's a couple of weeks ago... i could have taken them... in an instant... but i don't need to prove my method of keeping tortoises to you... because you couldn't replicate it... like nobody can replicate anyone's way...


Take your own advice Tom... and stop saying you are changing pyramiding in our captive raised tortoises... when you are only doing so with SULCATA'S so far... :D

Where did i actually say TOM YOU ARE WRONG...




Tom said:
stells said:
Here is my theory... if a tortoise is sick and stressed... then it will stop growing (happened to me with an Ibera that passed a stone)... when the tortoise then feels better it will start having growth spurts... then it can pyramid... (not happened to me thankfully)(but have seen it elsewhere)...

I don't believe that all shell growth is established in the first few WEEKS... i think that info is abit off... i have some of last years hatchlings here that are grown smooth... but they are still small... and if i sold them on and someone got one of the MANY factors of pyramiding wrong... i wouldn't be surprised if they pyramided even if they are smooth now... it can and does happen... its harder to pyramid a tortoise that is growing smooth... but not impossible... therefore shell growth is not established at a few weeks old... Pyramiding isn't set in stone once it starts... it can be stopped to a degree...

If you want to nit-pick fine points, then I'll nit pick them with you.

I din't say ALL shell growth for eternity is established in the first few weeks. I said the "pattern" for shell growth is established in that time frame. Didn't say it couldn't change. I WILL say that after a certain point in the growth and development, you can NOT make a smooth sulcata or Leopard pyramid. I believe this point is somewhere around 6-8", but maybe smaller as our w/c 4" torts never pyramided.

I won't argue about Mediterranean tortoise shell growth. The few of these that I raised from hatchlings all grew up smooth. The majority of the ones I've had were already older and mostly w/c. What you do over there with entirely different species has very little to do with our discussion here on LEOPARD tortoises.

I have also seen with hundreds, if not thousands, of Leopards and sulcatas that once they reach a certain size, they start to smooth out on their own with no change in conditions. The pyramiding becomes less exaggerated. This seems to coincide with the time and size they would have attained in the wild when they start coming above ground and staying exposed for longer and longer time periods.

There is a point I'd like to emphasize about every time you and I get into this discussion. I am not telling you that YOUR experiences with YOUR chosen (and different, by the way) species in YOUR country and YOUR enclosures is wrong. Why then do you insist on telling me and everyone else that MY observations from MY tortoises, in MY country and MY enclosures is wrong? I just realized that in typing this last paragraph that THIS is why I'm so irritated and defensive with you. This is the same discussion I had for for three pages with some other guy, before I realized he was only talking about his Egyptian tortoises in his own home. I conceded immediately as I know nothing of Egyptians OR how to raise one smoothly or not. I'll tell you what I told him, raise a smooth Leopard or Sulcata from a hatchling and then we'll have something to talk about. Until one or the other of us actually does this, we are both just arguing about our opinions, based on our different experiences with different species in totally different environments on totally different continents. I've got a head start on you as my sulcatas are a month old now and still smooth as a babies bottom. Get going Kelly. Raise a smooth Leo or Sulcata using YOUR methods and then you can validly shoot down my arguments once and for all.
 
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Maggie Cummings

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I think if you two are going to argue like this that you need to take it to the debatable section and start a thread there. Here; to be keeping on topic we need to simply answer this new person's question and NOT argue among ourselves. Thank you very much...
 
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stells

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That was what i was trying to do i did address the original question Maggie... Tom obviously thought it was all about him...
 

Terry Allan Hall

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Tom said:
Terry Allan Hall said:
Might a 3-yo gopher, that is very smooth, start suddenly pyramiding, if moved to a drier climate (on this case, Louisiana to Utah), or is this more likely a diet issue?

At three years and totally smooth, I think it would be very unlikely to start pyramiding, regardless of diet. 6 months, maybe. A year, possible. At three, I doubt it. Back in the day we would get small wild caught imports of both Leopards and Sulcatas. We'd put them in the same enclosures (after quarantine and vet treatment) as our captive raised, pyramided tortoises. They'd all get the same routine. Same heat, same diet, same sunshine on occasion, etc... The w/c would continue growing smooth and the captives would continue pyramiding. This always perplexed me and never made any sense until I learned about the humidity thing AND how early growth, right after hatching, establishes the pattern for the rest of that tortoises life.

Hmmm...ok, so pyramiding is pretty much a baby tort issue, and unlikely after age 1-yoa and older...so, any other idea why Stacy's 3 to 4-yo gopher has started pyramiding, then?...it's not excessive, but it is somewhat noticable (over the last several months), and she's worrying why all of a sudden it's happening, and if it will adversely effect "Slowpoke" life.

Her veternarian seems pretty clueless about anything but dogs and cats, and the few books
I've found are not a lot of help, either..

TIA
 

Crazy1

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What is the current temp, humidity she has it in? How much sun--outside time does it have and what is she feeding it?
 

Terry Allan Hall

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Crazy1 said:
What is the current temp, humidity she has it in? How much sun--outside time does it have and what is she feeding it?

Slowpoke lives in Stacy's back yard in a 40' X 20" enclosure (about 1/2 of her backyard), with access to lots of sun (depending on the day, of course), and she feeds him, in addition to the grass, prickly pear cactus and weeds that grow there naturally, a variety of dark green vegetables. Calcium added 2X a week.

Humidity is certainly lower than Louisiana's...not sure how much, but I'd guess maybe 1/2 as much...told her today to put some peat moss into his hidebox and dampen it a bit everyday, and maybe redo his water-dish to be a water-fall.
 

OurZoo

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maggie3fan said:
I think if you two are going to argue like this that you need to take it to the debatable section and start a thread there. Here; to be keeping on topic we need to simply answer this new person's question and NOT argue among ourselves. Thank you very much...

Thank you Maggie!:shy:
I must admit it is a wee bit intimidating to think that you have asked a simple question (hoping for a simple answer) and it appears to have created a hubbub. Apparently not the first and only hubbub about the whys and wherefores of pyramiding.
Please know though that every reply post contained food for thought and is appreciated. Now to sort it all out as to its usefulness in my situation.:rolleyes:
 
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