Conclusions About Sulcata Hatchling Enclosure's Humidity Levels

[LestatHIM]

I've been experimenting recently with the humidity in my reptile room and just wanted to share my observations out loud.

I have been trying to get adequate humidity levels for my Sulcata hatchling and haven't had much luck. A little background information. I live in Western Pennsylvania. The Humidity here isn't like Florida, but it's generally moderately high. The norm I'd say would be give or take 60%. It currently says on our local news website that it is 83% but that must be wrong. All my readings are at 60%, inside and out. Anyway, as I stated above I have been trying to get my reptile rooms humidity levels up to between 80% and 100% without much luck. I have installed multiple humidifiers into the room which literally make a cloud and my gauges still aren't reading over 84%. The room isn't too large and has absolutely no windows and one door. It's very well insulated and completely isolated.

In light of these tests I have concluded that it's probably not appropriate for me to keep the Sulcata in a Tortoise Table, atleast not now. I have decided to move him into a 100 gallon Acrylic aquarium. It's one of those kind that the tops are partially covered and there's two separate rectangles on the top to have access to what's inside; like the kind used for tropical fish. To increase the humidity I'm going to completely cover up the one opening with cling wrap and let his basking light hang down through the other. If I keep it moist in there it should hold the humidity like a champ. Also, I used Coir and Sphagnum Moss as my bedding inside my tortoise table. I think I'm going to use just Coir this time. Reason being is that it seems to hold moisture much better and I think I have caught him eating the Moss from time to time.

I'm terrified of him pyramiding, that's why I've decided to do all of this. I've read a lot of the threads about it and it seems that the humidity levels may be the culprit. Anyway, I just needed to share my thoughts. If you'd like I always appreciate feedback.

Thanks

Matt

 

[wellington]

What are you using to check humidity? If it is those small round disk type gauges that you stick on, that may be your problem. If you are using a digital probe type humidity gauge, well then you made a good move by putting your sulcata in an aquarium. However, you could have cover 1/2 to 3/4 of the table top and that may have given you enough humidity too.

 

[LestatHIM]

I'm actually using the digital ones. None of that cheap junk haha. But yea it'll be easier using the aquarium. It's by no means small as is it is 5 feet long. It's only 18 inches wide but honestly he doesn't leave an 18 x 18 little spot on his table and if he does it's quite rare. I think it'll be good for him, atleast for a year. It'll be easier to clean and I'll be able to add more water actually. I won't have to worry about it seeping through the cracks of the wood and what not.

Oh and by the way I read your threads some time ago. They are actually what made me join this site. Those are some excellent observations on pyramiding. Certainly enough evidence to suggest to me that you hit the nail on the head so to speak. So great job and thank you so much! Keep up the good work!

What are you using to check humidity? If it is those small round disk type gauges that you stick on, that may be your problem. If you are using a digital probe type humidity gauge, well then you made a good move by putting your sulcata in an aquarium. However, you could have cover 1/2 to 3/4 of the table top and that may have given you enough humidity too.

 

[Dizisdalife]

I am a believer in using a closed chamber for hatchling and baby sulcata. I used a smaller aquarium than yours to house my baby. The smaller size worked for me because I live in Southern Cal and he got to go outside almost every day, so the aquarium became a "night box" for him. He was too big for the aquarium, but too small to leave outside all night. Be sure you have a thermostat to keep the enclosure from over-heating.

 

[wellington]

I'm actually using the digital ones. None of that cheap junk haha. But yea it'll be easier using the aquarium. It's by no means small as is it is 5 feet long. It's only 18 inches wide but honestly he doesn't leave an 18 x 18 little spot on his table and if he does it's quite rare. I think it'll be good for him, atleast for a year. It'll be easier to clean and I'll be able to add more water actually. I won't have to worry about it seeping through the cracks of the wood and what not.

Oh and by the way I read your threads some time ago. They are actually what made me join this site. Those are some excellent observations on pyramiding. Certainly enough evidence to suggest to me that you hit the nail on the head so to speak. So great job and thank you so much! Keep up the good work!

What are you using to check humidity? If it is those small round disk type gauges that you stick on, that may be your problem. If you are using a digital probe type humidity gauge, well then you made a good move by putting your sulcata in an
aquarium. However, you could have cover 1/2 to 3/4 of the table top and that may
have given you enough humidity too.

Give the hats off and high fives to Tom. He is the one that did the threads and experiments. I just help pass the info on. I started to use his ways when I found this forum and it was easy and I had my leopard starting to growth new smooth growth in no time, after bad info from the breeder. So, please thank Tom.

 

[Tom]

Matt, I had the same problems in my reptile room and the same observations. Here in the CA high desert, it is extremely dry. Usually single digit humidity. In a 12x20' room I had dozens of roach bins and reptile and invert enclosures with damp or wet substrate. I was dumping literally gallons of water on the concrete floors every day and spraying the walls and ceiling with water. I left tubs of water all over the room and ran two humidifiers. I too would see that cloud hanging in the air, but my gauges never read much over 55%. With that as an ambient, I was able to get my enclosures up to about 80% if I covered most of the top and sprayed everything several times a day. My humid hide boxes would climb up into the 90s, but that was the best I could ever do. Now that I am using closed chambers, humidity hovers around 80% all the time with very little effort on my part. AND the substrate is pretty much dry. It is so much easier and better. The difference is amazing.

 

[FlapJackrage]

Matt, I had the same problems in my reptile room and the same observations. Here in the CA high desert, it is extremely dry. Usually single digit humidity. In a 12x20' room I had dozens of roach bins and reptile and invert enclosures with damp or wet substrate. I was dumping literally gallons of water on the concrete floors every day and spraying the walls and ceiling with water. I left tubs of water all over the room and ran two humidifiers. I too would see that cloud hanging in the air, but my gauges never read much over 55%. With that as an ambient, I was able to get my enclosures up to about 80% if I covered most of the top and sprayed everything several times a day. My humid hide boxes would climb up into the 90s, but that was the best I could ever do. Now that I am using closed chambers, humidity hovers around 80% all the time with very little effort on my part. AND the substrate is pretty much dry. It is so much easier and better. The difference is amazing.

Lol i live in the High Desert too.

 

[LestatHIM]

First of all my apologies everyone for not responding sooner. For some reason it's a hit or miss with me getting updates on my forum posts. Sometimes I receive an email letting me know comments have been added, sometimes I don't.

Anyway, thanks everyone for your replies, I'm doing to go through now an respond individually!

I am a believer in using a closed chamber for hatchling and baby sulcata. I used a smaller aquarium than yours to house my baby. The smaller size worked for me because I live in Southern Cal and he got to go outside almost every day, so the aquarium became a "night box" for him. He was too big for the aquarium, but too small to leave outside all night. Be sure you have a thermostat to keep the enclosure from over-heating.

How large was your enclosure? And you mention you live in SoCal? When I was there 2 years ago it wasn't really humid at all, atleast not as humid as it was east of the Mississippi River. I'm not sure if this was normal or if it was just low for some reason at that time. However, if it is a lower humidity, do you think the natural sunlight or the high humidity is more important?

Matt, I had the same problems in my reptile room and the same observations. Here in the CA high desert, it is extremely dry. Usually single digit humidity. In a 12x20' room I had dozens of roach bins and reptile and invert enclosures with damp or wet substrate. I was dumping literally gallons of water on the concrete floors every day and spraying the walls and ceiling with water. I left tubs of water all over the room and ran two humidifiers. I too would see that cloud hanging in the air, but my gauges never read much over 55%. With that as an ambient, I was able to get my enclosures up to about 80% if I covered most of the top and sprayed everything several times a day. My humid hide boxes would climb up into the 90s, but that was the best I could ever do. Now that I am using closed chambers, humidity hovers around 80% all the time with very little effort on my part. AND the substrate is pretty much dry. It is so much easier and better. The difference is amazing.

Tom, first of all thank you so much for your contributions to Sulcata care. As I stated above, your observations and studies actually caused me to join this site. It's great that people like you exist to put forth the extra effort to help us all out. So thank you!

I have a few questions for you. Do you have any idea what age roughly the pyramiding begins? Do you know what the minimum humidity level is to ensure this does not occur? Also, what did you use to fully enclose the chamber? Given the fact that I used Mega Ray bulbs which require a Deep Dome basking light, I don't think there's a way I could completely close it off without causing a fire hazard. Let me know what you think!

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Give the hats off and high fives to Tom. He is the one that did the threads and experiments. I just help pass the info on. I started to use his ways when I found this forum and it was easy and I had my leopard starting to growth new smooth growth in no time, after bad info from the breeder. So, please thank Tom.

Credit has been given! Thanks so much again. So are you saying that you had a tortoise developing pyramiding and that it actually reversed? If so I'm assuming this is reversible to some degree maybe if caught early enough?

 

[Tom]

No apology necessary.

Pyramiding can begin right after hatching if conditions are not right. Their very first growth ring can be the very start of it.

Generally if humidity stays around 80%, you should be able to prevent pyramiding. But its not that simple. Hydration, diet, exercise, calcium and sunshine also play a role. And I think shell spraying also makes a big difference. It does for me anyway. And don't forget that PREVENTING pyramiding is a whole lot different than STOPPING pyramiding that is already in progress.

I build large closed boxes out of plywood and 2x4s. Then I just hang the appropriate heating and lighting equipment inside them. I use much lower wattage bulbs inside my closed chambers to keep the heat where I need it. These hot bulbs are necessary for an ectotherm to warm up and function properly, but they DO dry out their shells which contributes greatly to pyramiding. The conditions of high humidity and lower wattage bulbs inside closed chambers help to reduce the harmful effects of hot bulbs.

I want to share my thoughts on the questions for the other people too. It IS very dry in Southern CA generally. This is why I like to sun brand new babies only for an hour or two a day, and then put them back in the humid enclosure after a soak. If I lived somewhere with humidity and warm temps, I would leave them out longer. Sunshine is important, but really 20-30 minutes twice a week is enough to prevent MBD. I think more is better and that is why I stretch it to an hour or two every day. By the time my babies are around one year old, they are outside in the dry air all day every day, weather permitting, but they still sleep indoors in their humidity for at least the first couple of years, before I move them outside to their permanent living quarters with heated night shelters.

Pyramiding that has already occurred will always be there. I cannot be reversed. But you CAN stop the progression and get all the new growth to come in smooth.

 

[Dizisdalife]

No apology necessary.

Pyramiding can begin right after hatching if conditions are not right. Their very first growth ring can be the very start of it.

Generally if humidity stays around 80%, you should be able to prevent pyramiding. But its not that simple. Hydration, diet, exercise, calcium and sunshine also play a role. And I think shell spraying also makes a big difference. It does for me anyway. And don't forget that PREVENTING pyramiding is a whole lot different than STOPPING pyramiding that is already in progress.

I build large closed boxes out of plywood and 2x4s. Then I just hang the appropriate heating and lighting equipment inside them. I use much lower wattage bulbs inside my closed chambers to keep the heat where I need it. These hot bulbs are necessary for an ectotherm to warm up and function properly, but they DO dry out their shells which contributes greatly to pyramiding. The conditions of high humidity and lower wattage bulbs inside closed chambers help to reduce the harmful effects of hot bulbs.

I want to share my thoughts on the questions for the other people too. It IS very dry in Southern CA generally. This is why I like to sun brand new babies only for an hour or two a day, and then put them back in the humid enclosure after a soak. If I lived somewhere with humidity and warm temps, I would leave them out longer. Sunshine is important, but really 20-30 minutes twice a week is enough to prevent MBD. I think more is better and that is why I stretch it to an hour or two every day. By the time my babies are around one year old, they are outside in the dry air all day every day, weather permitting, but they still sleep indoors in their humidity for at least the first couple of years, before I move them outside to their permanent living quarters with heated night shelters.

Pyramiding that has already occurred will always be there. I cannot be reversed. But you CAN stop the progression and get all the new growth to come in smooth.

Where I live is generally cooler and more humid than where Tom lives. Our winters are a little warmer than his too. That said, I have tried to follow his advice to the best of my ability and have found that I have gotten good results. My Tortoise was 8 months old when he came to live with me. Certainly not a hatchling. He was showing signs of pyramiding. He had been kept dry, but in moist soil so that he could burrow. I think that kept his pyramiding from being so severe, he was able to get away from the hot lights.

Sunshine and exercise are important for healthy growth, no doubt, but to stop or prevent pyramiding I believe that you need to keep the shell moist, don't let it dry out. Like Tom said, I used a spray bottle to mist the shell. I still have tendonitis from squeezing the trigger so often.

I used every trick I could imagine to combat the drying effect that the lights have. Spraying the sides of the enclosure, extra water dishes (I turned the top of his humid hide into a pool for more humidity), positioning the water dish near the basking spot, A humid hide, just whatever I could think of.
Here is Chuck's favorite basking spot:

You can see the pyramiding and some new smooth growth.

Sorry to ramble on like this. I just think it is important to demonstrate that keeping them moist, and hydrated, can arrest pyramiding.

 

[Masin]

I keep seeing tortoise tables with the little greenhouse like tops (PVC and a shower curtain) I was considering that since Echo is about grown out of her indoor enclosure. Are those acceptable for her age? (We we got her they said she was 6 months old, that was late May early June.)

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Sorry for hijacking your thread! Haha. I favor the closed in ones for little ones too but I'm not having luck finding any around me that are a good size for her.

 

[LestatHIM]

Hey everyone. Sorry I haven't responded, I have been on vacation the last five days. I appreciate all the input as usual. I was wondering, in regards to pyramiding, what are the early signs?