Concealed weapons/guns?...

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jblayza

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I think it's in the appropriate place, Off Topic Debates. Whats wrong with a friendly debate? Usually when I see a topic and it doesn't appeal to me I just don't click on it.
 

-ryan-

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This is the debate section of the off-topic forum, so the thread itself has broken no rules that I am aware of.

But it's gotten out of hand, so we need to relax a little bit and have friendly discussion. I don't think anyone here has a problem with anyone else, and I think that both sides are valid.

Stop the bickering, lets get the chips off our shoulders and be mature about the subject because it is obviously a touchy subject with some people.

CGKeith said:
Then you are not reading the correct publications. The left wing will not report on such issues.

http://www.nrapublications.org/AC/index.asp

Just because you don't know about it doesn't mean it isn't happening. That is just one source. These are happening all the time and not being reported on. (even though each of these was, just locally, not nationally)

Are you trying to say that the nra doesn't have a political agenda? I support the nra, but we need to be reasonable here.

To get to the point though, yes, it does happen. It often does go unreported in the news. That we agree on. It also goes unreported in the news (and nra publications) when a licensed gun user makes a mistake or commits a crime (often the fact that they were legally allowed to carry the weapon is what goes unreported). I know because I get to hear about it when it happens due to the nature of my family's work.

But yes, you have a point.
 

Tom

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DoctorCosmonaut said:
I never read on the news (not saying its never happened), but I've never heard of a person with a gun saving the day. You always have on the news that so and so had such and such happen, but never, ever, have I heard or read anything about anyone protecting themselves with a gun... So it doesn't sound effective, and the reasoning just isn't sound enough for me. I just don't feel comfortable with it.

I've covered why you don't hear it on the news twice now. Left-wing national news media and the people who run it want to ban guns. Showing the positive side doesn't help their cause. This is 98% of what you hear each day. The only way to hear the other side of the story is some of the AM talk radio stations, gun magazines and occasionally fox news. EVERYTHING else is left slanted.
 

Stephanie Logan

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I disagree. The right has plenty of TV news spots, anchor positions, editorialists, and journalists. Most radio talk shows are conservatively slanted. They have TONS of representation.

The supposed "liberal media", in my opinion, bends over backward to accommodate right-wing views that have little basis in truth. I know you have argued before that the National Center for Crime Statistics, the FBI, and law enforcement/intelligence agencies around the U.S. and apparently, the globe, are all under the nefarious control of the liberal conspirators bent on world domination. I do not believe the vast numbers and absolute unity and loyalty that would be necessary to maintain the "appearance" of truth is possible. People want the truth, especially journalists, who want mostly to reveal the truth, and to exaggerate it if necessary to sell papers, magazines and advertising. Most of the corporations who own news outlets and television stations are run by conservative, wealthy businessmen, or political moderates or independents. They are heavily influenced by MONEY, and money is generally far more prevalent in conservative circles (think banking, finance, arms manufacturers among others), so you really ought to rethink the supposed World Domination of left wing extremists. They simply don't have that kind of power, and thank God, with a "free press", neither do the right-wing extremists. That's the balance that makes our country so great.
 

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Stephanie Logan said:
I actually ask these questions of people and relatives who live in Europe and travel a lot: do you feel safer in your country or in the U.S? Do you think the streets are safer in your country/city or in the U.S.? Are crime rates higher in your country or in the U.S?

The entire world are not dupes to a global conspiracy of media, with the exception of those who agree with you, are we?

Nearly an entire country decided Jews were bad and should be exterminated. Would you call them duped? I would. If most people are told the same lie day after day from sources all around them, most of them will start to believe it. And this was before the age of computers and such. I've spent quite a lot of time in Europe and most of them have an elitest attitude. They tend to think we are barbaric heathens and that they know better. Not a one could tell me what they would do if armed thugs, busted down their door.

Here's a thought. Let's look back in history and see who else didn't think civilians should be armed. Hmmm.... Hitler, Stalin, Mussolini, Pol Pot, Saddam Hussein, Ho Chi Min, Kim Jong Ill... basically name a bad guy and every single one of them was all for disarming the populace.

By contrast, who DID think the average Joe should be armed: George Washington, Abe Lincoln (an avid shooter, BTW), Thomas Jefferson, Ronald Reagan... I'm sure there are lots more that I don't know about, but all of the founding fathers of this country saw the wisdom of it.
 

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[/quote]He wasn't fired for becoming involved, he wqas fired because he broke his contract. You know the one where part of the job description is following the rules of the school. The rule that says something along the lines of...no weapons of any kind are allowed in the school or on school grounds.... He chose to flaunt the rules, to not follow the rules, the rules he agreed to follow, that is why he was fired.
[/quote]

His "flaunting" the rules saved the lives of dozens of innocent children. I'd welcome him as a teacher at my daughters' school. If he had to break a rule to literally save those children's lives, then it must be a pretty stupid rule, right?

Seriously, if that deranged gunman was walking down the halls of your child's school, heading toward YOUR child, with the intent to kill him/her, can you honestly tell me that you wish that that teacher, a responsible, intelligent, brave man, was standing there empty handed?! What do you think the lunatic would have done if the empty handed teacher firmly demanded that he stop shooting an drop the weapon?

This discussion makes no sense to me. The bad guys are armed. Plain and simple. Always have been. Always will be. Doesn't matter what laws are or aren't passed. They are criminals, they ignore laws. Force, and only force, will stop them. You are arguing that it is better to NOT also arm the good guys, who far outnumber the bad guys. How could all of us being defenseless against criminals possibly be a good thing in your mind?

jblayza said:
You sure do have a way with words Tom. I agree %100.

Thanks for the support. I really just want to understand the "other side" on this. I consider Stephanie, Jacqui and lots of others who share their opinion to be thoughtful, intelligent people and so I just can't understand how they see things the way they do. It SEEMS so clear and obvious to me. I wonder constantly how other intelligent people have come to the complete opposite conclusion on the matter.

To those on the "other side", thank you for taking the time to share your point of view. I'm hoping to learn why you feel the way you do, while hoping you see why I feel the way I do about it. It seems to me that either I know something that you don't or you know something that I don't. It is my sincere hope that sharing our experiences that lead to our respective points of view, will lead us all to a better understanding of each others points of view.
 

-ryan-

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A couple of points based on the most recent posts (before I have to head out for the day):

-In regard to Tom and people of other countries being 'duped'. All countries dupe their citizens into believing that their country is the most important, most intelligent, and most rational. Whether or not the masses choose to believe it (we can probably agree that most of them do), the intent of nationalism is to build a strong love for one's country. The problem arises with the fact that this can lead to an unquestioning devotion, as with nazi Germany, and we can even say to some extent every other country at some point in history (including right now).

-This thread isn't about politics and liberal media conspiracy theories. Everyone has their conspiracy theories about who is running the country, who is to blame, and who is brainwashing the masses, and it's always whatever party they did not vote for. We don't need to turn this into a political thread because that was never the intent.

-This thread isn't about taking away the right to carry a concealed weapon. I fully support that right, and I think that it is an important privilege that should be taken extremely seriously. That is why I started the thread, because I have been hearing a lot of things from people that shouldn't be allowed to carry concealed but are. I think the second you talk about keeping your gun in the cup holder of your truck (pickup, not semi) you start making the responsible carries look like idiots. For the record, that is what spurred this thread, listening to someone talk about how he puts his gun in his cup holder when he gets into and out of truck because the holster is uncomfortable. I don't think this is responsible behavior for someone granted the right to carry a concealed weapon, though it is also certainly not the worst of it. Take for example, a guy who put his finger over the end of his gun and fired to prove that it wasn't loaded (it was). He was well within his legal rights to own that weapon and I don't think it is safe for someone like him to have a gun. It gets much worse, too, but I think these two examples are good enough.

So this isn't about new legislature or anything of that matter. It's simply the fact that some people slip through the cracks and that really shouldn't happen.
 

chadk

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You can't legislate stupidity (for the most part). You can make the same arguement for cars or even having kids. Some people should never be behind the wheel, but they are out there everyday - MUCH more dangerous than the morons with legal guns... But then, who really wants to live in a total 'nanny state'?
 

-ryan-

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chadk said:
You can't legislate stupidity (for the most part). You can make the same arguement for cars or even having kids. Some people should never be behind the wheel, but they are out there everyday - MUCH more dangerous than the morons with legal guns... But then, who really wants to live in a total 'nanny state'?

That's exactly my point. I would say, however, on the point of driving, that there should be some checkpoints at which time you are required to take the tests over to affirm that you are still a capable driver. But that's not the point. As I said before, my gripe is with people that own and use guns irresponsibly, and I know that there is nothing that can be done about it that wouldn't affect the responsible gun users. It's like the big exotic animals ban that NY put into affect a few years back. It is a blanket law that makes it illegal for anyone to acquire any snakes larger than a boa constrictor or any monitors larger than a sav (among many other now-illegal animals) unless you are affiliated with a zoo or can prove that the animals will be used for legitimate educational purposes. I was disgusted when they passed that law (and now as well when other states are following suit, some with even stricter legislature) because they are taking away the rights of the responsible animal keepers. This doesn't even effect me, because I don't keep any of the animals in the list, nor do I ever intend to, but it is an incredible injustice to those that know what they are doing. The idiots once again ruin the fun for everybody.

In the case of concealed weapons, I am complaining about the idiots because they could cause legislature that would effect responsible gun users like Tom and his friends/associates, and like countless people that I know and communicate with.
 

chadk

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Well, I hear ya on that - it is always the few idiots that ruin things for the rest of us :(
 

Tom

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Ryan I think we are on the same page. Nobody hates the irresponsible idiots more than the responsible ones. A few bad apples.....

I've never understood why we don't just chuck the few bad apples in the trash, and leave the rest of the good apples alone.
 
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