Concealed weapons/guns?...

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Tom

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jackrat said:
Tom,I wish I had your way with words. One thing I might add is a bystander is much more likely to be hit by a criminal. Criminals are notoriously bad shots,they seldom aim. When I draw my weapon,he will be in my sight picture and he will be getting lead poisoning. His birth certificate will be revoked.

He will have made a fatal error in the victim selection process.
 

jackrat

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Tom said:
jackrat said:
Tom,I wish I had your way with words. One thing I might add is a bystander is much more likely to be hit by a criminal. Criminals are notoriously bad shots,they seldom aim. When I draw my weapon,he will be in my sight picture and he will be getting lead poisoning. His birth certificate will be revoked.

He will have made a fatal error in the victim selection process.
[/quo
Eloquent and concise as always.
 

Jacqui

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Tom said:
Jacqui said:
Even if that man was indeed sane, even if he has experience with guns, who is to say he wouldn't have a problem and decide to use his gun to solve it? Then there is the fact it would make for an easy to get to gun, if anybody else there decided to get violent. I firmly believe if you bring the weapon, you are asking for it to be used.

That man would have probably died trying to PROTECT you had there been a problem.
Personally I believe more likely his gun would have caused further problems, he may even have been the one to kill me or causde me to be killed. Protect me???? I think not. I would not have wanted him to even try. He is not a cop. I would rather chance waiting for the pros to come (cops). There may be fewer cops, but they should be trained...and trained to try to do it WITHOUT bloodshed. I don't need Mr Moncho Look-At-Me I have a gun get involved. I sorta think gun toting should be out grown by the time your in your teens.

jackrat said:
Tom,I wish I had your way with words. One thing I might add is a bystander is much more likely to be hit by a criminal. Criminals are notoriously bad shots,they seldom aim. When I draw my weapon,he will be in my sight picture and he will be getting lead poisoning. His birth certificate will be revoked.
But may be NObody would have to die, if bystanders aren't so eager to get out their concealed weapon and become judge and jury.

Tom said:
BTW, I'm really glad that you are not trying to restrict the freedoms of others based on your point of view. It shows a level of maturity and intelligence that seems to be lacking these days. Thank you. I don't want to mandate that everyone else get trained and carry, so I can't understand why SOME people want to mandate that I can't. Thanks for the lively debate on such an important matter.

But you SHOULD have the right to restrict my freedom to feel safe and be safe, by having a concealed weapon?

Training is all fine and dandy, but nobody knows for sure how they will react when the time comes. Many well trained folks freeze or do the wrong thing. What you do do will remain to be seen, I do hope your proven correct and you never have to face the knowledge you have killed an inocent bystander...even killing the "criminal" is suppose to be hard enough to deal with. Of course I hope you never find out about any of it.

As a truck driver, this actually is moot. We aren't allowed to carry weapons, without even further licensing then a "normal" folks has to worry about, so basicly it's a no weapon rule.

Sure is fun to play devil's advocate in here tho and read the interesting responses.;)
 

Tom

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Jacqi, your feelings and opinions are based on ignorance. That is not an insult. I am ignorant about brain surgery. I am ignorant about truck driving. YOU are ignorant about guns and self-defense with guns. Please let me help you with that problem:

You have manufactured, in your mind, a scenario of a bumbling idiot jumping up and starting a gun fight while willy-nilly firing at anything that moves. This is not reality. Look at some crime statistics and real world facts. This is not how it goes down. This is how the gun banners want us all to believe it goes down, but it doesn't happen that way. People who have been granted a CCW permit have undergone significant training, testing, Federal, State and Local background checks, fingerprinting and have paid hundreds or thousands of dollars for the government granted privilege. Are there bumbling idiots in our society? Yes. Are they going to get a permit to carry? VERY unlikely.

Can you honestly tell me that if some deranged lunatic illegally acquired a firearm, crashed his car through the front window of the restaurant where you and your family were eating, got out and started to shoot your loved ones, that you would prefer that NO ONE in the whole building be armed and able to stop him? You would rather watch them die, and then be killed yourself, than have a guy like me at the next booth stand up and say, "not today pal". I find it incomprehensible that you are uncomfortable because I have a metal tool in my waistband, but totally fine with the prospect watching innocents helplessly die at the hands of a criminal.

Cops: They are just people. People like me and you. They get between 24 and 40 hours of firearms instruction when they go through the academy. Most of them go no further. They have to qualify 4 times a year. The qualification is so easy, that I can do it one handed, with my OFF hand, at twice the required distance. No joke. I did it once, just to prove a point. The minimum training required for a CCW is 16-32 hours. Almost every body goes significantly farther than that. I know lots of cops. I'm related to some. I also know lots of CCW holders. I would rather have a CCW holder defending me in every scenario you can think of. They are simply better trained and more skillful. This is not my opinion or my feelings, as you say. This is fact. I have seen it over and over. I train with law enforcement types. These are the GOOD ones who seek out and pay for more training than their department would give them. Often (not always) they are the bumbling idiot, slowing up the rest of the class. There are exceptions. I beat them head to head every single time I have gone up against them in every contest I've ever participated in. I beat the swat guys too. They HATE losing to a "Civie", but they aren't as good as they think they are. My instructors regularly pit me and a few others against them to humble them. Recently, I went up against a SEAL. He handed me my A**! I stupidly thought it was luck, so I tried twice more. Same result. This ought to demonstrate that level of training has a lot to do with it. The average beat cop has a very low level of training and most of them either don't realize it or don't care (like my cousin, for example). The average CCW holder, by contrast, has a relatively high level of training, that we have to pay for ourselves.

Machoness and teens: I am the farthest thing from "Macho" that you will ever meet. So are most of the other CCW permit holders that I know. We are humble and polite when carrying. Have to be. We are NOT combative, arrogant, argumentative or bullish in any way. Can't be. Teen agers have no business carrying a concealed weapon and CANNOT get a permit to carry one in any state. "Gun toting" therefore can't be engaged in by a teen, and therefore cannot be outgrown. The maturity needed to deal with life and death matters is something that a teen should aspire to grow into.

Your right to feel safe: We don't (or at least shouldn't) make laws based on misguided, ignorant feelings. My right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, trumps any right you think you have to feel a certain way. And yours trumps mine.

Training: Training DOES tell you how you will react in real life. At least good training does. This fact has been tragically proven by the military and police for hundreds of years. You will always revert to your training. If you were well trained, you will do what you were trained to do, and practiced, and prevail. If you received poor training and practiced things that way, you will also do what you were trained to do and likely not prevail. This is how training advances despite the bureaucracy encountered in most Law Enforcement Agencies. We go through realistic scenarios in training that simulate the adrenaline dump, nerves and unpredictability of real life. I can tell you from personal experience and that of my peers, that this most definitely does translate into real life. I have, unfortunately been tested more than once.

Jacqi, Please go take just ONE defensive firearms class and you will see just how ill-informed you are. You will see that gun folks are not Macho, incompetent idiots. You will see that the last thing on Earth that any of us want is a gun fight or violence of any kind. We do what we do to PREVENT violence and innocent deaths.
 

N2TORTS

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motero said:
X2 what Tom and jackrat said.

YUp ...... to all 4 of you ! ..^5 .... and today just picked up
my new SW 40 Sigma....:D
 

CGKeith

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Let me add another +1 for what Tom has said, and a thank you to Tom for putting into words what a lot of us want to say.

As a former Marine from years ago we also had a saying, "pray for peace, train for war". Although it was different circumstances, the message is the same.

I didn't then and don't now want to be in the middle of a situation, but I know I am prepared if I am.

Keith
 

jackrat

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Jacqui,no I do not want to pull out a weapon and become judge and jury.You have no idea the effects it can have on your life.Not just legal ones. How you look at yourself in the mirror in the morning. I'm content with the fact that I am here to do just that.I can spend time with the people I love and just enjoy life in general.Should I have given all of this up so some meth head idiot could end my life and feed his habit with money I worked for? Maybe that would be your choice,but it's not mine.Do you know why crime is so prevalent?It's certainly not because cops are doing such a great job.It's because of this attitude that you display and the media loves to perpetuate.That anyone with a gun isa criminal .Do you realize that it was citizens with guns who started this very country that allows you the freedom to voice your opinion,no matter how skewed it may be.They were people of substance who would not let their freedoms be trampled.They defended their freedoms at all costs.Folks like these are,sadly, pretty few and far between these days.That is why we end up in a situation like we have in America today.Americans need to face the hard truths and show a little of the integrity our forefathers had.
 

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Tom said:
Jacqi, your feelings and opinions are based on ignorance. That is not an insult. I am ignorant about brain surgery. I am ignorant about truck driving. YOU are ignorant about guns and self-defense with guns. Please let me help you with that problem:

Can you honestly tell me that if some deranged lunatic illegally acquired a firearm, crashed his car through the front window of the restaurant where you and your family were eating, got out and started to shoot your loved ones, that you would prefer that NO ONE in the whole building be armed and able to stop him? You would rather watch them die, and then be killed yourself, than have a guy like me at the next booth stand up and say, "not today pal". I find it incomprehensible that you are uncomfortable because I have a metal tool in my waistband, but totally fine with the prospect watching innocents helplessly die at the hands of a criminal.


Jacqi, Please go take just ONE defensive firearms class and you will see just how ill-informed you are. You will see that gun folks are not Macho, incompetent idiots. You will see that the last thing on Earth that any of us want is a gun fight or violence of any kind. We do what we do to PREVENT violence and innocent deaths.

I may be ignorant but I didn't just make this ignorant mistake of assuming
I had never taken a defensive firearms class. Hmmm if you jump to one conclusion, I wonder how many more you are jumping too? Oh yeah before I forget it, my name is Jacqui, not Jacqi (just a little mistake, but...).

Yes Tom, if my family were eating out, I would not want some person who thinks he has the right, to jump in with his gun and make matters worse. I will take my chance with just one gun being waved around and may be the person not use it, rather then create a situation where vilence will more likely esculate.

I do go out to eat to relax, enjoy myself and the meal I am eating, why do you feel I should not have that simple right? Why do you feel your rights are higher then mine? So far, odds have been in my favor to not have a criminal create an unpleasant situation for me, but I have had a concealed gun person ruin a meal, a resturaunt, and I even have second thoughts about even stopping in that state to do any shopping or whatever.

jackrat said:
Jacqui,no I do not want to pull out a weapon and become judge and jury.You have no idea the effects it can have on your life.Not just legal ones. How you look at yourself in the mirror in the morning. I'm content with the fact that I am here to do just that.I can spend time with the people I love and just enjoy life in general.Should I have given all of this up so some meth head idiot could end my life and feed his habit with money I worked for? Maybe that would be your choice,but it's not mine.Do you know why crime is so prevalent?It's certainly not because cops are doing such a great job.It's because of this attitude that you display and the media loves to perpetuate.That anyone with a gun isa criminal .Do you realize that it was citizens with guns who started this very country that allows you the freedom to voice your opinion,no matter how skewed it may be.They were people of substance who would not let their freedoms be trampled.They defended their freedoms at all costs.Folks like these are,sadly, pretty few and far between these days.That is why we end up in a situation like we have in America today.Americans need to face the hard truths and show a little of the integrity our forefathers had.

You might reread what I first said, I DO own guns. I never said owning a gun makes you a criminal.

Yeah our forefathers integrity, hmmmm won't mention slavery, how women were treated, how about how we treated Indians? Plus would not some look at the famous tea party as a criminal act?

Why is it, if somebody disagrees with your point of view they are "skewed" among other insults?
 

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Funny how the actual events rarely end up with a law abiding CW carrier being the hero and shooting the villain.

In my world, guns are used by angry husbands/boyfriends to threaten and then murder his wife/girlfriend/children. Guys get drunk and then get angry and decide to fire their legally-owned weapons without much aim or thought for the consequences. I read about men (and women--rarely) who use their legally-owned guns to commit suicide.

Then there are the criminals and gang bangers who use weapons in drug deals gone astray or robberies or muggings. I guess it is remotely possible that a CW carrier would be in the same restaurant/convenience store/nightclub/church/school/hospital/freeway at the exact right time to prevent some innocent bystanders getting shot, but it is not probable nor even likely.

Funny that in countries with strict gun control, gun injuries and deaths are quite rare, rare enough to be remembered by communities because of their singularity. Which gun injury/threat/death happened most recently in your community? Can you name the last 3? The last 5? Or are they so common you can't even keep track of all of them?
 

Tom

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Stephanie Logan said:
Funny how the actual events rarely end up with a law abiding CW carrier being the hero and shooting the villain.

In my world, guns are used by angry husbands/boyfriends to threaten and then murder his wife/girlfriend/children. Guys get drunk and then get angry and decide to fire their legally-owned weapons without much aim or thought for the consequences. I read about men (and women--rarely) who use their legally-owned guns to commit suicide.

Then there are the criminals and gang bangers who use weapons in drug deals gone astray or robberies or muggings. I guess it is remotely possible that a CW carrier would be in the same restaurant/convenience store/nightclub/church/school/hospital/freeway at the exact right time to prevent some innocent bystanders getting shot, but it is not probable nor even likely.

Funny that in countries with strict gun control, gun injuries and deaths are quite rare, rare enough to be remembered by communities because of their singularity. Which gun injury/threat/death happened most recently in your community? Can you name the last 3? The last 5? Or are they so common you can't even keep track of all of them?

Actually, events do often end up that way. We just don't hear about it because either the left-wing national news media doesn't report anything positive to do with guns or because a crime was prevented from ever happening due to the presence of a gun in the hands of one or more good guys. The later has happened to me three times now. There was nothing to report, because the criminals took their business elsewhere. It is estimated that guns are used to PREVENT crime 2,500,000 times a year. I can think of two school shootings that were stopped with no fatalities because the good guys were armed, trained and present. One was a college with two CCW students. Out of 496 news stories on the incident, 492 made no mention of the fact that the illegal, murderous assault was stopped by two legally armed college students who didn't fire a single shot. The other was another High School and was stopped by a teacher who had a handgun in the trunk of his car. How many children would have died that day, if he hadn't had that gun. He also never fired a shot. He was fired for his trouble, BTW.

I've got news for you. In your world, an ever growing number of those same women are realizing that they are responsible for their own safety. Cops can't do anything until after a crime has been committed and the dirtbag, criminal exes know it. Women use guns to prevent crimes against them far more than the other way around. As I said before the national news media, with their gun ban agenda, doesn't want you to know this.

Again, how is it better to be unarmed and defenseless with the criminals and gang-bangers you mentioned running around?

Other countries skew and under-report their crime statistics. If you compare apples to apples, most of Europe has a worse crime rate than us. One thing is clear from both the UK and Australia. Both countries banned and confiscated a whole lot of guns in the 90's and both countries saw a dramatic rise in violent crime in the years following the bans. One part of Australia saw a 300% increase! Criminals and felonious exes like unarmed victims.

If you are going to look at the harm guns can do, then you must also look at the harm they can prevent and the good they can do. It is difficult for the average person to find this out because you are bombarded by fallacies and outright lies daily.
 

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I never read on the news (not saying its never happened), but I've never heard of a person with a gun saving the day. You always have on the news that so and so had such and such happen, but never, ever, have I heard or read anything about anyone protecting themselves with a gun... So it doesn't sound effective, and the reasoning just isn't sound enough for me. I just don't feel comfortable with it.
 

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Then you are not reading the correct publications. The left wing will not report on such issues.

http://www.nrapublications.org/AC/index.asp

Just because you don't know about it doesn't mean it isn't happening. That is just one source. These are happening all the time and not being reported on. (even though each of these was, just locally, not nationally)
 

jblayza

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Hard to believe some would rather just die than fight for their lives and the lives of their loved ones, or have someone who can come to their aid. Glad we have the right to bear arms, to each there own.
 

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I hear of gun owners saving the day quite often. What I DON'T hear, is the stories of:
1) Guy with legal concealed gun get's angry and just starts shooting random strangers
2) Guy with legal gun intervenes to help a stanger who is being threatened, but ends up shooting innocent bystanders in the process
3) guy with legal gun is in the process of being mugged or carjacked or otherwise threatened while out in public - pulls gun but ends up shooting innoncent bystanders.
 

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I actually ask these questions of people and relatives who live in Europe and travel a lot: do you feel safer in your country or in the U.S? Do you think the streets are safer in your country/city or in the U.S.? Are crime rates higher in your country or in the U.S?

The entire world are not dupes to a global conspiracy of media, with the exception of those who agree with you, are we?
 

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I know if I was in an unfimiliar country I would like to have some sort of protection. Alot of times tourists from other countries are targets to criminals and theives so I would feel safer in my country/city anyways. Fight fire with fire, if we have no way to protect ourselves that gives the ones who own guns illegally the upper hand. Would we send our troops to fight the bad guys with no weopons? Imagine a country where only criminals and law enforcement owned firearms, what would the law abiding citizens do to protect themselves until the cops arrived. At least getting licensed you get some training, and backround checked to ensure you are a responsible gun owner, and might make someone think twice about robbing some one or some place. Just my 2 cents
 

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The US is like many countries in one. There are cities and areas of most cities I don't feel safe in. Yet other places where I would feel totally safe.

Think about watching the typical US media and TV and hollywood movies. You'd think the US is a battle zone and nobody is safe. "Nothing happens again in small rural town" just doesn't cut it in the media. :)
 

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jblayza said:
Hard to believe some would rather just die than fight for their lives and the lives of their loved ones, or have someone who can come to their aid. Glad we have the right to bear arms, to each there own.

If this was pointed toward me, just try to harm one of my children or animals and you will see a fight til my death. I just choose to not have a person with a CW draw out his gun and maybe make the situation worse. Or may be to end up dead herself (or himself) trying to be a hero.

Yeap, I do think we should all arm the bears. :p (Just trying to keep this lite and ummm "friendly".

Tom said:
We just don't hear about it because either the left-wing national news media doesn't report anything positive to do with guns
You know Tom up til this point, I could see parts of your opinion and thought yeah may be it might be safe, BUT reading this has caused me to go back to a solid no on CWs.

Tom said:
... a teacher who had a handgun in the trunk of his car. He was fired for his trouble, BTW.
He wasn't fired for becoming involved, he wqas fired because he broke his contract. You know the one where part of the job description is following the rules of the school. The rule that says something along the lines of...no weapons of any kind are allowed in the school or on school grounds.... He chose to flaunt the rules, to not follow the rules, the rules he agreed to follow, that is why he was fired.
 

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I would strongly suggest that this thread be removed from this website. This site is dedicated to tortoises and I assume turtles. Leave all of the other baggage at home. PLEASE!
 

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elegans said:
I would strongly suggest that this thread be removed from this website. This site is dedicated to tortoises and I assume turtles. Leave all of the other baggage at home. PLEASE!

Your objection has been noted and as a team, the moderators will talk it over and go from there. Thank you.
 
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