Concealed weapons/guns?...

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-ryan-

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I'm going to preface this post with the following statement: This has nothing to do with the politics of owning guns or carrying a concealed weapon. This is about people and their reasons for doing so. I come from a gun family who actually has a vested interest in the firearm industry.

On to the actual topic: I have recently become interested in the fact that more people carry concealed weapons (guns) than I originally suspected, and sometimes I am surprised at who these people are, mostly because I cannot figure out how they can justify carrying a gun with them at all times. I'm all for freedom to bear arms, but I think that if you live in a middle-class suburban area and don't venture into dangerous areas it is probably not necessary to keep one in a holster or in your car. Heck, I live just outside of the murder and arson capital of NYS (and they are obviously high up in the rankings when it comes to other crime as well), and because of the nature of my work I end up in some of the bad parts of town, and it's never occurred to me to carry a weapon. During one of my gigs one evening there were two separate murders within a few blocks of where I was playing (definitely made driving home difficult), but in my opinion, if I were in a situation like that, having a gun isn't going to help me. One of the strangest things I heard recently came from an upper middle-class guy that has a brand new truck and doesn't live in/near a dangerous urban area. He basically said that he keeps his gun with him and in his truck at all times so that he won't be a victim of carjacking.

Really? If someone came up to me and told me to give them my car or they'd kill me I would just be thankful that that was all they asked for. A more level-headed person who I am a bit more familiar with was telling me that when he lived downtown in a dangerous neighborhood he carried a concealed gun with him all the time. He says it was the dumbest thing he ever did and he is lucky he didn't get killed. Usually just having a gun on you marks you as a target for people that otherwise wouldn't view you as a threat/opponent (in an urban area at least).

Again, I am all for the right to bear arms, but I think people need to think a bit more about whether or not their lifestyle mandates carrying a weapon.
 

jackrat

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Why should anybody have to justify carrying a firearm.Everyone,except for felons, has the same right to carry a firearm.I think everyone needs to understand the responsabilities that go along with having a gun.But as far as worrying about who all is carrying a gun,I don't.I would feel a whole lot better if everyone carried one.Have you ever been to Jerusalem? It isn't like what you see on TV. Children walking around outside at night. Elderly people walking the streets at night with no fear. And do you want to know why? Because there is no crime. Why? Because that elderly lady you are thinking about mugging very likely has an Uzi under her arm. I'm a proud American,but if the day ever comes when I can't carry a gun,I'll be the first to vacate this country.What I'm trying to say in a roundabout way is,if you're not thinking about mugging those folks carrying guns,you should'nt be worried about them and what they do.
 

Tom

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I'm legal to carry in 38 states and do so whenever possible. I've got over 400 hours of paid, professional training. Only an idiot would be safer without a gun. I am not an idiot. Doesn't matter what kind of neighborhood you are in. Criminal predators go everywhere. There is no one to rob in a poor, crime-ridden neighborhood. Think about it.

A gun is the solution for VERY VERY few problems, but it is the ONLY solution for certain problems. Unfortunately, we don't get to pick the day trouble will find us, so you better be prepared everyday. Prepared means to me, having the training, mindset and the means to protect yourself, your loved ones or other innocents, no matter what the threat. I am prepared, as well as I am legally able to be, at all times, whether I'm at home or abroad. One of the most important aspects of all of my training is situational awareness. I stay very aware of my surroundings at all times and I'm able to see trouble coming a mile away and avoid being in a situation where self-defense would be necessary. That is one of the biggest concepts you learn in firearms training classes: How to AVOID ever getting in a gun fight, or any fight for that matter. I don't want to fight anybody ever. I get real polite when I'm legally carrying. I will tolerate much more abuse than if I were unarmed.

This is not my concept, but I can't remember who to give credit to. There are three kinds of people in this world: Sheep 90%, wolves 5%, and sheepdogs 5%. Problem is the hysterical, fearful sheep can't tell the difference between the wolves and the sheepdogs. They both have and use the same weapons, they are both canine predators. One goes out of its way to harm the sheep, while the other goes out of its way to risk its life to protect the sheep. The sheep clamor to disarm both, while forgetting that the lawless wolves will ignore their mandates and increase their predation while the sheepdogs are powerless to stop them.

Your kind of mindset is what the criminals of the world thrive on. Just give them your car, you don't want any trouble. Guess what, you get trouble whether you want it or not. Let me ask you this: What IS worth fighting for? When is enough enough? How do you know they are just going to take the car and not kill you anyway? What if you give up the car and get out and then they tell your pretty young girlfriend to get back IN? What then? Do you want to fight them empty handed or do you just not want to fight? I will be dead or unconscious before one of my loved ones gets raped or killed. I will be dead or unconscious before I let one of YOUR loved ones get raped or killed.

If getting trained and carrying is not for you, hey, I've got no problem with that. I DO have a problem with a bunch of mis-guided, ignorant idiots forcing ME to go out defenseless.

So, how do you see yourself? Sheep, sheepdog or wolf? In my opinion there is no in-between.
 

jackrat

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Very well said,Tom .I have also spent a fair amount on training I hope I never have to use. I was faced with a situation some years back.I was confronted by a young man with a gun who gave me no choice.Unfortunatly,I did not have my gun,but I did have a knife.He hesitated and I didn't. Not something I would ever want to do again. But I am sitting here writing this and enjoying the company of my family .'Nuff said. I was very lucky. I won't get put in that position again.
 

Itort

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I believe in the right to carry but with firearm training. Too many people in todays urbanized world have little idea of safety and responsibilties entailed in carrying a firearm (I see it almost daily in my job). I am trained (retrained yearly) to carry and choose not carry (except when required for work).
 

Jacqui

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I am going to be the odd person here, but I am sorry, I don't feel safe knowing folks are carrying guns. I come from a gun owning family and do have my own gun, however I see no need for folks to be carrying them and think instead it is asking for problems.

I never really knew how strongly I felt about this issue until about a year ago, we were eating at a Golden Corral in Kingman. AZ. An older guy came in there with his gun and ammo clips. I saw that and became very afraid for my safety. I had to immediately leave the place. I couldn't finish my meal. I did then call GCs corporate office and complain.

Even if that man was indeed sane, even if he has experience with guns, who is to say he wouldn't have a problem and decide to use his gun to solve it? Then there is the fact it would make for an easy to get to gun, if anybody else there decided to get violent. I firmly believe if you bring the weapon, you are asking for it to be used.

Makes it hard for cops coming late to the party, to know which gun shooter was/is the good guy and who is the bad.

Also gives everybody there, one more gun to be hitting/killing them with "friendly fire".
 

jblayza

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First of all crime has no boundaries, i don't care what class neighborhood you're in, stuff happens. Second, how does carrying CONCEALED make you more of a target when your weapon is CONCEALED? Everybody has their own way of dealing with things and I choose to put myself on the same level or higher than someone who may try to hurt me or my family. If someone chooses to enter my space with the hopes of injuring my family or I they have another thing coming. I will exercise my right to bear arms and if the time comes I will use those arms to protect myself or family. You never know whats going to happen in any given situation. There have been many instances where the victims do what they are told and are still wounded or killed. I will not let another person make that decision for me.
 
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Maggie Cummings

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It seems to me that if every person in the world was trained how to use a firearm we would all be safer, then the gangbangers would end up shooting each other and more would be killed.
I just moved from a very violent city and there were gun shots every night, but because most gangbangers can't shoot most times they miss.
Because I was a long distance lone female truck driver my company had me go thru personal protection training and I can use my hands and feet to protect myself. Most gangbangers with a gun wouldn't expect an old lady to fight them, but I would. The biggest problem I was told...is that I am not afraid of a confrontation...
 

Tom

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Jacqui said:
Even if that man was indeed sane, even if he has experience with guns, who is to say he wouldn't have a problem and decide to use his gun to solve it? Then there is the fact it would make for an easy to get to gun, if anybody else there decided to get violent. I firmly believe if you bring the weapon, you are asking for it to be used.

So, if you had your gun and there was a problem, would you use your gun to solve it? Of course not! So what makes you think that man or any other would? I guarantee if you are in AZ, you are surrounded by guns when you are out in public. I carry when I'm there. That man would have probably died trying to PROTECT you had there been a problem. I would. I'm not a fan of open carry and that is why. Too much irrational, emotional hysteria. Plus I don't want the criminals to know that I'm armed. It would make me a target, if they were up to no good.

As far as friendly fire, I'd rather RISK that then die for sure at the hands of a deranged lunatic. Anyone with a CCW has been trained when and when not to shoot. We know not to just open fire into a crowd.

There are countless incidents of crimes being stopped or prevented all together by armed good guys stepping up. If we don't do it who will? The cops? That's laughable. All they do is clean up the mess and fill out the paperwork afterwords. I'm not bashing law-enforcement, but they will be the first to admit that they can't be everywhere all the time. Los Angeles has 9800 police officers to cover 4 million people. Suffice to say there is not a cop on every street corner. The "sky is falling" sentiment that you express is normal and common. It is also fueled by the left wing media and very FALSE. If you look anywhere across the whole country its the same story. More gun control=more violent crime. The criminals have a safer work environment in which to ply their trade. Think Washington D.C., New York City and Los Angeles. Less gun control=less violent crime. No criminal in ther right mind is going to try to victimize somebody that they think might be armed. Think Vermont. Lowest crime rate in the country. You don't need a permit of any kind to carry a loaded, concealed firearm in Vermont. They don't have shoot-outs in the streets there. They don't have friendly-fire incidents there. They also don't have much crime there. If you were a criminal where you you rather do business? D.C. where guns are/were banned or Vermont where you are likely to get shot in the face for trying to attack someone.
 

-ryan-

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Didn't realize this is such a heated debate! I don't think you have to worry about me complaining that you shouldn't have your guns. I probably have more guns in my house than any one of you :) I don't carry concealed though, and I think some of your reasons for carrying concealed are valid, but you guys seem like you are rational human beings that understand when/how it is appropriate to use your firearm. The problem I have is with people that carry one who are dying to show it off/use it.

Walking around this city is more a hazard with a concealed weapon than most I think. Basically if anyone figures out that you have it you become another possible target when something goes down. If you're smart they won't ever know you have it, but what if you are getting mugged and they see your weapon (which you didn't have time to draw, because if you have ever been mugged at gunpoint you know there is precious little time to do anything) you are now deemed a threat to be dealt with. That is usually when people get shot while getting mugged.

I hate to say it, and it is probably also based on the area that I am from, but it isn't safe to fight back if someone is trying to mug you, car jack you, anything that doesn't involve direct physical injury. If they take my car, that's fine. I can get another car if mine isn't recovered. If they take my wallet, not a problem. I don't really have anything too important in their anyway. If they take my drums after a gig, that's alright. I have four sets of drums and I can get insurance money. Obviously the line is crossed if I am threatened with physical harm, but at that point the flight instinct is more powerful than fight for me, and I do agree that this is the one time that I would like to have a concealed weapon. Otherwise it's just not worth it. My city's annual murder rate is 25 people for every 100,000 (or somewhere around there), but they are almost always one criminal killing another.

I have to get going, but interesting discussion! We will continue this.
 

pugsandkids

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When I go hiking by myself I do carry.
Grocery store, picking up kids from school, having coffee with a friend? No.
As with many of you, I'm trained and very comfortable with my choice. It all depends on the person. The guy who's wearing his nine strapped to his waist at a local swimming hole is clearly looking for trouble. A well balanced person who is aware of the situation and willing to leave. Opting to use that firearm as the very, very last resort, does not concern me!
As with everything else its all about responsibility.
 

Tom

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-ryan- said:
Didn't realize this is such a heated debate! I don't think you have to worry about me complaining that you shouldn't have your guns. I probably have more guns in my house than any one of you :) I don't carry concealed though, and I think some of your reasons for carrying concealed are valid, but you guys seem like you are rational human beings that understand when/how it is appropriate to use your firearm. The problem I have is with people that carry one who are dying to show it off/use it.

Walking around this city is more a hazard with a concealed weapon than most I think. Basically if anyone figures out that you have it you become another possible target when something goes down. If you're smart they won't ever know you have it, but what if you are getting mugged and they see your weapon (which you didn't have time to draw, because if you have ever been mugged at gunpoint you know there is precious little time to do anything) you are now deemed a threat to be dealt with. That is usually when people get shot while getting mugged.

I hate to say it, and it is probably also based on the area that I am from, but it isn't safe to fight back if someone is trying to mug you, car jack you, anything that doesn't involve direct physical injury. If they take my car, that's fine. I can get another car if mine isn't recovered. If they take my wallet, not a problem. I don't really have anything too important in their anyway. If they take my drums after a gig, that's alright. I have four sets of drums and I can get insurance money. Obviously the line is crossed if I am threatened with physical harm, but at that point the flight instinct is more powerful than fight for me, and I do agree that this is the one time that I would like to have a concealed weapon. Otherwise it's just not worth it. My city's annual murder rate is 25 people for every 100,000 (or somewhere around there), but they are almost always one criminal killing another.

I have to get going, but interesting discussion! We will continue this.


Its not heated yet. No ones really arguing the other side. I hear what you are saying, but you are demonstrating a lack of understanding for how these things typically go down. You don't get to decide whether or not they just want to take your car or if they are going to do you physical harm AFTER you already gave them your car. There is nothing wrong with being prepared for the worst, but still giving up your property to avoid a potentially violent, deadly confrontation.

In other words, if you are armed, you can still give up the car, without any violence, but you are still able to fight back, if they attack you any way.

If you are not armed, you are at their mercy all around, no matter what you do.

As far as becoming a "target" after your firearm is out and exposed: If I've pulled it, it is because there was NO other alternative and I have been FORCED to use potentially deadly force in self defense. If this is what's going on, I'm ALREADY a target of violence. If things get to this point, my assailants will be down and out of the fight in seconds. In other words, the fight is over within seconds of exposing your self as a potential danger to your criminal attackers.

You bring up a good point about irresponsible people doing the wrong things. If you've got a permit to carry there is usually a requirement of 16 hours of training and passing a proficiency test. There will always be people who do stupid things, but this is so rare among CCW holders that it isn't worth discussing. There are so few bad apples, that they are statistically insignificant. Again, if RISKING a few possible bad apples is the cost of arming millions of good guys, it is a risk I'm happy to accept.

I believe that most people are good guys. Say 99%. All it takes is to have a few of those 99 out of 100 to be trained and able to defend themselves and others, for the 1% of baddies to not stand a chance.

I invite healthy, respectful debate on this subject too. There is a tremendous amount of mis-information and emotionally based, but flawed, opinion out there. The sky will not fall because a few well-trained, back-ground checked, permitted good guys are carrying an inanimate metal tool. This is not just my opinion, it is a proven fact all over the entire country.

I gotta go to work too. More later, hopefully.
 

DoctorCosmonaut

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IMO, I think that needing to carry a gun is a big sign of insecutirty and paranoia (I mean maggie can kick butt without gun, can you guys not? :p). It signals a lack of faith in people and, like Jacqui said, makes me feel less safe knowing you are out there. Why does everyone have to be so on edge? Go shoot some deer then lock em up, don't wait around to use them on people! >.<

I wonder what the world would be like with only squirt guns?
 

-ryan-

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Again some very good points. I think that I am mostly just drawing on my experience with how things typically go down around here. I have yet to be mugged or otherwise taken advantage of by a criminal, and that's because I usually don't travel alone downtown, but I have quite a few friends with experience with just such a thing. The bottom line for me is that, every situation where a gun has been involved, the good guy doesn't get the opportunity to draw his weapon. A couple of examples:

A friend of mine was minding his own business outside a club downtown while a band was playing. With no warning a man walking down the street shoved a gun in his face and said 'give me everything in your pocket'. My friend started to say "are you serious" but didn't get the last word out before being pistol whipped in the forehead and knocked to the ground (whereupon the criminal was going to take his things until a girlfriend of his started screaming and the creep took off). If he had attempted to pull out a firearm in self-defense there is no doubt the assailant wouldn't have hesitated to empty a round into his head.

Another situation happened at a local late-night restaurant that my friends and I frequent. I wasn't there at the time, and my buddies had just left after getting a late night snack when someone came in with a gun and robbed the place. If someone had tried to pull a gun on this person there is no doubt that he would have started firing and potentially killing a number of innocent bystanders.

Most of the intentional murders that occur in this city are drive-by. The criminals shoot from the car and get out as fast as possible. There is really no way to tell when/if this is going to happen (other than understanding the risk inherent in different locations in the city), and when it does it's so quick that no one has any time to react. It seems as though a bullet comes out of no where. In my opinion this isn't something that you can protect against other than staying away from certain areas.


These are just examples of the type of crime that occurs most often in this city. Almost all of it is somehow tied to the drug trade, so it all fits the same pattern, over and over again. I feel as though you are outlining a very specific scenario that doesn't happen here. You're saying you don't draw your weapon until you know your life is threatened, but once you're at that point how are you able to draw your weapon? If someone comes up to you on the street, sticks a gun in your face and says "empty your pockets", you can attempt to reach for your gun, but once the criminal gets an inkling that you aren't about to hand over your wallet you won't have time to remove the safety before he fires, because at that point he is the one in the position of power. That is when having a gun gets you killed, at least in this city.

Anyway, I'm just trying to let you see my point of view. I get the feeling that you think I am naive about the matter of personal protection, but actually I have a lot of experience. I have not yet been in such a situation, but most of my friends have, and they know that there is nothing you can do to defend yourself because by the time you are in that position the criminal already has the upper hand.

My family has been in the firearm/ammunition industry for almost forty years. I live with guns, and I understand their usefulness as a tool for self-defense. I think it's smart to have a gun, especially in the event that you have to defend yourself in your home. I also think that it can be smart to carry a concealed weapon in certain situations when you know there is a chance you may be confronted and you may have to defend yourself. My problem is with people that think they have to take their gun with them out to dinner, to the movies, etc. etc. and it is their right to do so, no complaint there. I just think many of these people don't have enough common sense.
 

Tom

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DoctorCosmonaut said:
IMO, I think that needing to carry a gun is a big sign of insecutirty and paranoia (I mean maggie can kick butt without gun, can you guys not? :p). It signals a lack of faith in people and, like Jacqui said, makes me feel less safe knowing you are out there. Why does everyone have to be so on edge? Go shoot some deer then lock em up, don't wait around to use them on people! >.<

I wonder what the world would be like with only squirt guns?

Insecure? Paranoid? I can assure you I am neither. I am, however, very in touch with reality. Bad things happen to good people. Bad things have happened to me in the past. I learned from those experiences and am now prepared to deal with them. I'm not on edge, I'm just aware of what could happen and have taken the time to prepare to deal with it, rather than be a victim of it, again.

I have no doubt that Maggie is feisty, but her, or any other woman, is not going to stand up to the strength of grown man under the surge of adrenalin that happens when they commit a crime, not to mention if they are under the influence of some mind altering drug.

If the world were filled with only squirt guns, humans would kill each other with knives, bats, clubs, spears, explosives, stick and stones, etc.... this is not my opinion, it is fact. Those of us who are smaller and weaker, would be subject to the whims of the large and strong. Not so with a gun.

-ryan- said:
I have yet to be mugged or otherwise taken advantage of by a criminal

I have.

-ryan- said:
A friend of mine was minding his own business outside a club downtown while a band was playing. With no warning a man walking down the street shoved a gun in his face and said 'give me everything in your pocket'. My friend started to say "are you serious" but didn't get the last word out before being pistol whipped in the forehead and knocked to the ground (whereupon the criminal was going to take his things until a girlfriend of his started screaming and the creep took off). If he had attempted to pull out a firearm in self-defense there is no doubt the assailant wouldn't have hesitated to empty a round into his head.

Another situation happened at a local late-night restaurant that my friends and I frequent. I wasn't there at the time, and my buddies had just left after getting a late night snack when someone came in with a gun and robbed the place. If someone had tried to pull a gun on this person there is no doubt that he would have started firing and potentially killing a number of innocent bystanders.

These are just examples of the type of crime that occurs most often in this city. Almost all of it is somehow tied to the drug trade, so it all fits the same pattern, over and over again. I feel as though you are outlining a very specific scenario that doesn't happen here. You're saying you don't draw your weapon until you know your life is threatened, but once you're at that point how are you able to draw your weapon? If someone comes up to you on the street, sticks a gun in your face and says "empty your pockets", you can attempt to reach for your gun, but once the criminal gets an inkling that you aren't about to hand over your wallet you won't have time to remove the safety before he fires, because at that point he is the one in the position of power. That is when having a gun gets you killed, at least in this city.

Ryan, I mean you no insult, but you are naive. I was too, until I started training and taking all sorts of classes. Take a firearms class or two and you will see exactly what I mean. I shot guns for 22 years, and lived in blissful ignorance, until the day I took my very first, basic handgun class. What a mind blower! I had no idea how ignorant I was. Prior to the class I thought I had everything under control. I though I knew how to handle myself and what to do. I also shared some of the opinions that you are expressing. I was wrong. I know better now.

In your first scenario above, your friend made a whole lot of mistakes. He shouldn't have been outside, alone, hanging around in that part of town. He should have seen that guy coming a mile away and gotten out of there. I would never let somebody close on me like that out in public. You also over estimate the criminals ability to react and fire accurately. You under estimate my ability to draw and fire from concealment. The main error here is a total lack of awareness on your friends part. There would have been no mugging OR defensive shooting had that been me because I wouldn't have been standing there like that.

In situation #2 above, I would probably have sat there with my gun in my holster and let the robbery happen. No need to endanger lives over money. However, if the robbers decided to open fire, I would at least have the means to stop them. I can't say exactly what would happen, but I'd probably take a knee behind some cover or concealment so that my shots would be angled upwards, away from inocent bystanders. Most people instinctively hit the deck or run in a crouched position in such a scenario where the baddies remain standing to try to get better aim. I've seen lots of footage of this actually happening in the real world. I train enough to not miss at the distances encountered in a restaurant anyway.

Your city is no different than any other. Criminals are the same all over the world. They look for easy targets who aren't paying attention and aren't going to fight back. They hit with surprise and intimidation and it works for them most of the time. I go to great lengths to make sure I am not surprised, and after all I've been through in my life, I don't get intimidated. Criminals look me over and then wisely decide to find another mark. I've seen it happen.

A lady with her hand in her purse, eyes up, and purposeful footsteps does not look like an easy mark. A guy who is going somewhere, but scanning ahead and behind does not look like an easy target to a criminal. Believe me, a criminals' very LIFE depends upon them being able to tell the difference between a guy like me and a guy like your buddy outside the club. I used to be like you and your buddy. That's why the difference is so obvious to me. You have never been to where I am now, but I welcome you to join me. More good guys like you is better for everyone.

BTW, I'm really glad that you are not trying to restrict the freedoms of others based on your point of view. It shows a level of maturity and intelligence that seems to be lacking these days. Thank you. I don't want to mandate that everyone else get trained and carry, so I can't understand why SOME people want to mandate that I can't. Thanks for the lively debate on such an important matter.
 

-ryan-

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All good points, and maybe it would be a good idea to take some of those classes in the future, and then I will have a better perspective. To be fair to my one friend in the first scenario I outlined, he was with a group of people. It's in an area in full of bars and nightclubs and evidently the guy was just walking down the street, like dozens of others that had passed by in the time they were outside, and he had the guts to single out the 6 foot 4 guy with the beard. But, I wasn't there at the time so this information is all secondhand and it might have been different than him and the witnesses say.

This has been a good lively debate, and you are obviously qualified to carry your gun. You don't fit the type that I was talking about originally (that carry their gun around everywhere and aren't properly trained to handle a dangerous situation). If everyone that carried was like you it wouldn't make me as uncomfortable. Unfortunately I have seen people that shouldn't be allowed to drive a car, let alone carry a weapon. But, that is not for me to decide.
 

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-ryan- said:
All good points, and maybe it would be a good idea to take some of those classes in the future, and then I will have a better perspective. To be fair to my one friend in the first scenario I outlined, he was with a group of people. It's in an area in full of bars and nightclubs and evidently the guy was just walking down the street, like dozens of others that had passed by in the time they were outside, and he had the guts to single out the 6 foot 4 guy with the beard. But, I wasn't there at the time so this information is all secondhand and it might have been different than him and the witnesses say.

This has been a good lively debate, and you are obviously qualified to carry your gun. You don't fit the type that I was talking about originally (that carry their gun around everywhere and aren't properly trained to handle a dangerous situation). If everyone that carried was like you it wouldn't make me as uncomfortable. Unfortunately I have seen people that shouldn't be allowed to drive a car, let alone carry a weapon. But, that is not for me to decide.

Fair enough...

Just FYI, ALL of the guys and gals that I know, who are permitted to carry, ARE just like me. The only people that I've seen carrying irresponsibly are criminals, and they are the reason the rest of us want to carry.
 

pugsandkids

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Tom said:
-ryan- said:
All good points, and maybe it would be a good idea to take some of those classes in the future, and then I will have a better perspective. To be fair to my one friend in the first scenario I outlined, he was with a group of people. It's in an area in full of bars and nightclubs and evidently the guy was just walking down the street, like dozens of others that had passed by in the time they were outside, and he had the guts to single out the 6 foot 4 guy with the beard. But, I wasn't there at the time so this information is all secondhand and it might have been different than him and the witnesses say.

This has been a good lively debate, and you are obviously qualified to carry your gun. You don't fit the type that I was talking about originally (that carry their gun around everywhere and aren't properly trained to handle a dangerous situation). If everyone that carried was like you it wouldn't make me as uncomfortable. Unfortunately I have seen people that shouldn't be allowed to drive a car, let alone carry a weapon. But, that is not for me to decide.

Fair enough...

Just FYI, ALL of the guys and gals that I know, who are permitted to carry, ARE just like me. The only people that I've seen carrying irresponsibly are criminals, and they are the reason the rest of us want to carry.

Ditto Tom!
 

jackrat

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Tom,I wish I had your way with words. One thing I might add is a bystander is much more likely to be hit by a criminal. Criminals are notoriously bad shots,they seldom aim. When I draw my weapon,he will be in my sight picture and he will be getting lead poisoning. His birth certificate will be revoked.
 
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