Commercial diets....

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ArkansasKelly

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I know there has been many debates about the use of commercial diets so I thought I would start one here.

Do you use commercial diets with your torts? If so, what type of tortoise are you feeding and what diet it use? Is the commercial food the main diet or just a suppliment? Those would just be a few questions to start with.

My own story pertaining to Repcal tortoise pellets and a sulcata.

My first ever tortoise was a 4" sulcata. The internet at that time was not very helpful as far as diets went so I consulted my vet. He was a big believer in Repcal tortoise pellets so he told me to feed that.

Okay, so I left pellets in front of this sulcata 24/7 and would occasionaly give greens so he could eat something different. To make a long story short, a year later, he was, I beleive 9" long. By the time I sold him, which was 2 years later, he was, if I remember correctly, 19" and 50lbs. Those figures may be off, but it is close.

Needless to say, the commercial diet made him grow FAST, but there was never any health issues to speak of. Very minimal pyramiding and he was never sick. Of course, I have learned since then never to leave it in the pens all day and all night. :p

What is the moral of that story, there isn't one, I just wanted to tell it.

ARKelly
 

agiletorts

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Are there long term health issues with feeding commercial diets which caused your tortoise to grow unnaturally fast? Maybe there are none. But I still prefer to feed natural foods to my tortoises.
 
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stells

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I can't justify using a commercial diet, i can find enough variety feeding weeds and edible plants to supply my tortoises with a good diet so i don't feel the need to use pellets. I am comfortable with the diet i am feeding and all my tortoises seem to be thriving on it, also its free. Yes a good variety of weeds and plants is needed but i do like a challenge and just soaking a few pellets and throwing them in doesn't do it for me, i get a great deal of satisfaction knowing they are enjoying food that i either grew or picked myself. :)
 

ArkansasKelly

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agiletorts said:
Are there long term health issues with feeding commercial diets which caused your tortoise to grow unnaturally fast? Maybe there are none. But I still prefer to feed natural foods to my tortoises.

From what we could see, no, there was no health issues, but as far as long term, I have no idea. I lost touch with the people who bought her and that was over 9 years ago.

Stells: Well said!

ARKelly
 

terryo

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I can deffinately understand Kelly's (stells) poiint of view, but, what about people who don't have access to greens and natural food in the winter? I am lucky that where I live there are many speciality stores that carry all kinds of greens and fruit in the winter. Also what about people who live where there is harsh weather in winter months and can't get to stores to buy greens, and fruit that is needed? What about the people who have colonies of tortoises and can't spend time preparing all this food? Just a thought to add to this.
 

Crazy1

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I think there are pros and cons to any diet, commercial or fresh depending on where it is coming from. Natural diets would of course be the best but most of us can't raise what they would normally eat in the wild year round and those that do not hibernate do need to eat (I do well growing things outside but inside I have no room and a black thumb). Most greens grown for human consumption has chemicals and or fertilizers. Reading the list of ingredients in most commercial foods, for tortoise or human consumption is mind boggling for me. Chemicals, things I can't even pronounce. Plus things like Alfalfa and corn that is not good but in Mazuri tort food. Corn is not good yet it is in Pretty Pets plus oats. It can be very confusing. Do these commercial Tort food makers get organic foods or are their chemicals and fertilizers in those foods as well?
I, like Kelly (stells) grow my own organic food for the torts. Winters are a little tougher than spring or summer but I wonder if they are getting the amount of vitamins and minerals they need. Yes I supplement but I still worry. They seem healthy and happy. But I also know that things like Grape leaves and mulberry leaves are gone in winter. So this year I am going to try and dry some to help supplement. I don’t think there is a right or wrong way. I think each and every one of us must decide for ourselves what works for us and our torts.
I think the driving force is partly;
What is convenient for some
What is liked by some
What is available for some
What is time (or less time) consuming for some
And what type of tort or the amount of torts you have.

I love to grow, pick, and chop up their food daily for them. It gives me great pleasure. I don’t mind getting up an hour early to do this.
I do feed the DT some Mazuri occasionally to help supplement their diet. But they graze and eat grape leaves and Mulberry leaves and natural desert plants I have bought and provide them with daily. I do not chop their food I simply cut off a small branch and they do the rest. Am I doing harm by feeding them Mazuri? I hope not. I do not feed this to my hatchlings, am I doing them harm by not feeding them Mazuri? Who knows for sure? Not I all I can do is my best and that is what I try and do for my torts.
And I still wonder if Mazuri is good for my Pomeranian? I don’t figure it will hurt him but putting on weight may be a problem. :p
 

SleepyWilly

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Well assuming that green diet is best is wrong, you have to look at them as equals and base your decision on that. The fact is keepers can control the amount of nutrients and vitamins much better with the pellet diet. They know exactly what vitamins and minerals and nutrients there tortoises are eating. Its a much better way than assuming or making educated guesses with greens. Now I'm not advocating the use of pellets, in fact I think i will probably use them especailly during the winter, but more as a supplement than full blown just there whole diet. And people who have a lot of tortoises its excellent, hours of preparation is not needed.
 
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stells

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i was just wondering what everybody thinks of a green diet when they say that, what do you think a green diet consists of? i.e lettuce, cabbage, because if its that mine is quite different. Sleepywilly i can't see where anyone has said a green diet is best, it depends on what green diet your feeding. I have a few tortoises and like the preparation it takes to feed them, maybe some can't be bothered with it but for me it works, i have tortoises growing well and smooth and have never had any major health problems with any of mine and am yet to suffer a loss for me that speaks for itself :)
 

SleepyWilly

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"Natural diets would of course be the best" from the post above me, and by natural diet i mean weeds, fruit if applicable, natural home grown veggies all the organic produce they can shovel down there throats. I never said one was better than the other, in certain situations one can prove the easier option to choose, and that is fantastic that you have not lost a tortoise yet.
 

JustAnja

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I chose to use Mazuri quite a bit this winter. We had 108 inches of snow for the season, it came in late October and didnt really leave except for a few days here and there until early April. I had no access to weeds until they started showing up in June. The dandelions that I ordered from the local grocer werent all that great, and other than driving an hour into Milwaukee to hit the Whole Foods store my guys got mostly organic Spring Mix and Mazuri this winter with the occasional winter squash and some pumpkin. Occasionally on my outings I found cool stuff like organic Chickweed at the Public Market which was grown for juicing but I was more than happy to pick it up for the torts. :)

Im moving back to the south in a couple of weeks and my outdoor season will be quite a bit longer than it was up here so the torts will get to enjoy weeds longer than last year but I will still feed Mazuri 1-2 times per week. All of my torts THOROUGHLY enjoy their Mazuri as well, much like the pic of Ed's Redfoots running towards the food bowl. lol

This is merely my experience with it and it has worked very well for what I needed. ;)
 

Yvonne G

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My desert tortoise pen consists of 90% Burmuda grass and 10% weeds. I don't feed them except an occasional branch of the mullberry tree. They are happy and healthy, and my oldest one I've had for over 30 years. This is WA-A-A-A-A-Ay far from being a natural diet for desert tortoises. In the wild, desert tortoises wander a long distance to fill their stomach. During really dry, drought years, they might go all summer and into hibernation with hardly anything to eat...for a whole year!! So even though my tortoises graze on grass and weeds, they are NOT being provided with a natural diet, as I simply cannot find the seeds from the desert to plant a natural grazing area for them. Same goes for my sulcata and leopards. I don't know if they would find Burmuda grass growing in their home world, but without water, if they did find it, it would be brown and crisp.

We do the best we can with what we've got.

Yvonne
 

Jacqui

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Dang just reading about winter and freezing my behind off digging under snow and leaves to find weeds to supplement my torts winter diet made me realize just how uncomfortably hot I am right now. :D

I do find for atleast most of the winter, enough weeds to give a little each day to everybody. However, yes most of the winter diet is store bought. I do have some pelleted food in the house, just as an emergency backup if I run out of food.

I like to atleast pretend I am giving them a natural diet. As pointed out already, even if I feed the same weed they ate in the wild, raising it in a "captive" situation will still change its water and nutrient content some.

I do like feeding fresh food be it greens, bugs, fish, whatever. That said, I do intend to try some of both the Mazuri and cat food (the one Nerd recommends) this winter. Will keep it a small part of the diet and think of it the same way I do feeding a different variety of greens or bug.
 

redkim

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Well - being in So Cal I don't have the winter problems so that DEFINITELY adds another factor to the whole issue.

The one thing I am seeing in the posts where commercial diets are used is that people will admit to some pyramiding. Isn't that a concern in some small way? I guess we've seen severe cases of pyramiding and the tortoises have managed, so minimal pyramiding is probably not an issue? Not trying to stir a pot but I am trying to understand acceptable levels.

One thing we did have to watch for when feeding "complete diets" to different animals at the zoo is the loss and breakdown over time of the vitamins in the feed. For example, Vitamin C has a shelf life of 30 days - it's one of the fastest to break down. That starts from the time the food in manufactured. You then have to calculate the time it sat in warehouse or on trucks and if it was exposed to high temps then it breaks down even faster. So many times by the time you are feeding the pellets, certain vitamins have broken down and are either gone or the potency is diminished. So I guess the point of this last bit is to say - do not rely on the pelleted feed to have all the vitamins it had when it was made. Many factors come into play between manufacturer and food dish - your animals may not be getting all the vitamins that you think they are.
 

-EJ

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Maybe you can help me...

Can you provide any evidence to support your claim that there are long term health issues... what might those issues be...?

Rapid growth is not a health issue it does occur in the wild.

Just some added questions... not necessarily to the op...

why is corn, wheat, oats... bad?

Dark leafy greens is ANY dark leafy greans... which includes cabbages...

Ed


agiletorts said:
Are there long term health issues with feeding commercial diets which caused your tortoise to grow unnaturally fast? Maybe there are none. But I still prefer to feed natural foods to my tortoises.
 

Crazy1

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-EJ said:
Maybe you can help me...

Can you provide any evidence to support your claim that there are long term health issues... what might those issues be...?
I beleive that agiletorts was asking a question, not making a statement. But I could be wrong.
Rapid growth is not a health issue it does occur in the wild.

Just some added questions... not necessarily to the op...

why is corn, wheat, oats... bad?
"An often overlooked factor is grain based diets. Typically soy, wheat and or rice These are high in omega 6 fatty acids which has a negative effect on health. They also have an acidifying effect which causes a leaching of bone. They are high in phytates which binds calcium and other minerals. They also have an unfavorable ca/ph ratio and a low ca/mg ratio which has a negative impact on calcium metabolism. Grains alter Vit D metabolism. Diets high in grains can have a negative impact on bone growth in spite of adequate exposure to sunshine.” Except from; http://www.russiantortoise.net/pyramiding_in_tortoises.htm

Dark leafy greens is ANY dark leafy greans... which includes cabbages...
Not all greens are created equal. Cabbage contains goitrogens which all green leafy vegetables/plants do not. Some are high in oxalic acid, some are high in sugars and plant proteins. Some are low in fiber and have high phos/Cal. ratios.
http://www.chelonia.org/Articles/nutrientanalysis.htm
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=19

Ed
Some plants are better suited for our torts-depending on the tort you have. Some torts do not digest the silica in grasses and hays as well as others. Some can metabolize fruits and plants high in carbohydrates; some can not, or not as well. Those plants that are low in sugars, plant proteins, oxalic acid, high in fiber and have a high calcium /phosphorus ratio, are plants I prefer to feed my torts. Food, or nutrition is not the only issue, others include; exercise, hydration, amount of food consumed, variety of food given, all these play a part in making for a healthy tortoise. In my opinion.

Ed, You posed great questions that gave me the chance to get more indepth into my reasons for my earlier statements. Thank You.
 

-EJ

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It is my opinion that all TT references should be questioned because there is an obvious adjenda.

How about some references outside of the tortoise relm?

Ed

Crazy1 said:
-EJ said:
Maybe you can help me...

Can you provide any evidence to support your claim that there are long term health issues... what might those issues be...?
I beleive that agiletorts was asking a question, not making a statement. But I could be wrong.
Rapid growth is not a health issue it does occur in the wild.

Just some added questions... not necessarily to the op...

why is corn, wheat, oats... bad?
"An often overlooked factor is grain based diets. Typically soy, wheat and or rice These are high in omega 6 fatty acids which has a negative effect on health. They also have an acidifying effect which causes a leaching of bone. They are high in phytates which binds calcium and other minerals. They also have an unfavorable ca/ph ratio and a low ca/mg ratio which has a negative impact on calcium metabolism. Grains alter Vit D metabolism. Diets high in grains can have a negative impact on bone growth in spite of adequate exposure to sunshine.” Except from; http://www.russiantortoise.net/pyramiding_in_tortoises.htm

Dark leafy greens is ANY dark leafy greans... which includes cabbages...
Not all greens are created equal. Cabbage contains goitrogens which all green leafy vegetables/plants do not. Some are high in oxalic acid, some are high in sugars and plant proteins. Some are low in fiber and have high phos/Cal. ratios.
http://www.chelonia.org/Articles/nutrientanalysis.htm
http://www.whfoods.com/genpage.php?tname=foodspice&dbid=19

Ed
Some plants are better suited for our torts-depending on the tort you have. Some torts do not digest the silica in grasses and hays as well as others. Some can metabolize fruits and plants high in carbohydrates; some can not, or not as well. Those plants that are low in sugars, plant proteins, oxalic acid, high in fiber and have a high calcium /phosphorus ratio, are plants I prefer to feed my torts. Food, or nutrition is not the only issue, others include; exercise, hydration, amount of food consumed, variety of food given, all these play a part in making for a healthy tortoise. In my opinion.

Ed, You posed great questions that gave me the chance to get more indepth into my reasons for my earlier statements. Thank You.
 

luieluiehus

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personally i have never fed my tort anything besides all organic fruits and veggies. it seems pretty unecessary if you ask me.
it upsets me to find out that that corn is not very good for my tort because he loves munchin ears of corn.
Luie (my tort) sometimes gets into the dog food he LOVES it and at first i tought it wouldnt really cause any harm but now im having second thoughts.
does anyone know if dog food will hurt my tort??
thanks everyone for all this reallly good info
i just joined this but im already really liking it.
:D
 

spikethebest

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dog food is EXTREMELY bad for sulcata tortoises. that is high in protein. sulcatas need a high fiber, low protein diet. please stop feeding your sulcata dog food. that might be why he is pyramiding.
 

-EJ

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Food for thought... dog food is not bad because of the protein... it is bad because of the fat. Mammals need fat... reptiles do not. Reptiles need as much protein as mammals. They don't need the fat because they are cold blooded.

Pyramiding has nothing to do with protein...

ed

spikethebest said:
dog food is EXTREMELY bad for sulcata tortoises. that is high in protein. sulcatas need a high fiber, low protein diet. please stop feeding your sulcata dog food. that might be why he is pyramiding.
 
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