Colombian "Clown" Redfoots

[t_mclellan]

I started this thread in response to N2TORTS posts in the "Real Cherry Heads" thread.
He referred to "Clown phase" Redfoots.
These are not some designer color morph of Redfoot & he didn't imply that they were. They are Colombian Redfoots.
Many Colombian Redfoots have striking color as juveniles. In most this color fades as the animal matures.
The majority of people keeping tortoises today I would doubt have seen a wild caught Colombian Redfoot adult. Although they were very common back in the 70's & 80's.
Recently (the last 10 years or so) farms in Colombia have been exporting juvenile "Colombian" Redfoots.
Redfoots in general are highly variable & the Colombians are no exception.
Some farms actually refer to a "Clown phase" or "Type". This is to make the point that these are strikingly marked.
It is very common to see these animals with bright red, orange & white on the head.
They are truly beautiful animals. Similar colors can be found in many northern populations but don't seem to be as common as in the Colombian population.

I think the true reason for this thread is that I think these animals need a place of there own.
I'm fairly sure that N2TORTS & my self are not the only admirers of these wonderful animals.
Here are a few of mine. When they wake up I'll get photos of some adults.


http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x82/coonass1951/Clown/

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Clownface adult females -

I think this is a "Clown" -

And one of her babies -

And a lot of yellow sub-adult male -

These are reportedly Colombian locale.

Terry K

 

[t_mclellan]

That baby is a SCREAMER!!

 

[Redfoot NERD]

That baby is a SCREAMER!!

Thanks.. isn't she tho'? And I was stupid enough to let her sibling get away -

At 4 years Tom -

Terry K

 

[Redfoot NERD]

I had to find it.. that 'baby' was 3 years old in the earlier post.. as is here.

And some of that 'white' you mentioned -

And? -

Terry K

BTW.. I spoke with Tom earlier today and asked him if he minded if I showed a few examples of Colombian "Clowns" on his thread.

 

[Tim/Robin]

So without knowing for certain locale information, is it possible to know a "clown" Redfoot from a northern? We have always assumed we have the general run of the mill northerns. Any way to tell from these photos?
Abberforth- male ~9"SCL

Lilly- hopeful female ~5"SCL

 

[Candy]

Tim/Robyn, in the last picture I see the bigger one going after the little one. Does he bob his head to smell her? That reminded me so much of Dale and the way he looks at Ruby when I put them close to one and other. Dale's head goes wild when she's around him and I don't even put them that close together. Does your big one ever try to hurt the little one?

 

[Tim/Robin]

Candy, the big one ADORES his Lilly. He sleeps with her. If we take her out to soak her before him, he is watching and comes right to the front. He ALWAYS knows where she is. He does follow her everywhere. As for the head bobbing, I can't say that I have noticed that particular behavior. He has never tried to hurt her or shown any aggression towards her at all.

 

[N2TORTS]

I started this thread in response to N2TORTS posts in the "Real Cherry Heads" thread.
He referred to "Clown phase" Redfoots.
These are not some designer color morph of Redfoot & he didn't imply that they were. They are Colombian Redfoots.
Many Colombian Redfoots have striking color as juveniles. In most this color fades as the animal matures.
The majority of people keeping tortoises today I would doubt have seen a wild caught Colombian Redfoot adult. Although they were very common back in the 70's & 80's.
Recently (the last 10 years or so) farms in Colombia have been exporting juvenile "Colombian" Redfoots.
Redfoots in general are highly variable & the Colombians are no exception.
Some farms actually refer to a "Clown phase" or "Type". This is to make the point that these are strikingly marked.
It is very common to see these animals with bright red, orange & white on the head.
They are truly beautiful animals. Similar colors can be found in many northern populations but don't seem to be as common as in the Colombian population.

I think the true reason for this thread is that I think these animals need a place of there own.
I'm fairly sure that N2TORTS & my self are not the only admirers of these wonderful animals.
Here are a few of mine. When they wake up I'll get photos of some adults.


http://s184.photobucket.com/albums/x82/coonass1951/Clown/

Howdy Terry ...Your pIcs Are WONDERFUL! LQQKS like Sonshine? ...and yes .. I didnt mean to start a confusion...about the names. Iam glad you stated that Iam NOT misleading folks at some new breed. ( although I had to re-read it twice..thinkng I was getting into trouble .. ( grin) ...... As you said its just a color variation...and YOU are the one who turned me on to them a couple years back .. from your websites.... After I saw the ones you have I feel in love .. I just had to find one. I tried contacting you weeks back to show this "Jr. /columbo clown 7" ..to you and the remarkable " white" symetrical eye scales.But to no avail... i didnt hear back .... I even wondered if this came from one of your stock...?
They are amazing in peson...this little guy even has rich burnt orange on carapace....very new to this site .. and I must say .. ultra cool!
Still trying to get the pic posting right .. perhaps .. mananna~
Peace ya all"
JD~
the " torts 2"

---

And Sorry for the " wrong Thread" species ... WHATEVER!!! It all was my first time trying to figure this darn site out .. and just helping out someone with a Cherry question..( which they thanked me) ...and the " clown " got tossed into the convo....

 

[t_mclellan]

After reading my OP I see that I may have left out some points & been a bit vague on others.
Let me address a few things & then hopefully correct the short comings in the OP.

1) Hi N2TORTS;
I'm Tom, "T_McLellan" I started the thread. "redfoot NEARD" is Terry K.
He was the first responder.
We are both a tad sensitive so don't mix us up!

2) On to my misleading / incomplete information.

I don't think it was correct to call "Clown" phase Redfoots Colombian.
As this coloring can be found in all the northern populations.
There is at least 1 farm that advertizes "Clown" phase Redfoots. The 1 that I refer to is in Colombia. All of the young "Clowns" that I have (see link in OP) are from that farm.
Dose this mean that my animals will look this way in 10 years? NO!
Dose the fact that the farm is in Colombia mean that the animals they breed are all local or even from that country? NO! I think we all have seen / read or have personal knowledge of animals from far flung locations being kept & bread in captivity.
Even if they have paper work, you can't always rely on it.
(Tim/Robin; it may be that you have something that would fall into the category of "Clown", No matter what the locality.)
I would not doubt that some of what people are selling (at least in this country) as a "Clown phase" are crosses between "Brazilian Cherry Heads" & other types of Redfoot.

I think the name is a simple marketing tool to draw attention & more sales.
The term refers to animals that have striking contrast in their coloration.
As I said, Many of these animals seem to loose much of their (head) color as they mature.
Those that actually keep the color as adults (in my opinion), Would fall into the this "Clown" category. The others that loose most of the color would IMO normal.
There are many people that produce breath taking hatchlings, That in 10 to 15 years look like the average Redfoot.

I have no idea when or where the name "Clown" came from. When I was in the business,
These animals would have been called "Screamers", "Beauties", "Cherry" (as in a car not a tortoise from Brazil) or a "10".

Suffice it to say that I think the term "Clown" should refer to a "LOOK" not a "TYPE" of Redfoot.

Yeah, I know I run off at the keyboard on occasion! & I probably missed something again!
(& you in the blue shirt! Quit giving me the "Stink eye" for giving my opinion!)

 

[Redfoot NERD]

TO ANYONE WHO MAY HAVE NOT GOTTEN A 'REPLY' FROM ME OVER THE PAST 2 WEEKS..... I WAS ATTACKED BY A MEAN TROJAN THAT WIPED OUT MANY OF MY FILES AND NEWEST PICS INCLUDING EMAIL, ETC.

I have had to re-install EVERYTHING onto my computer.. twice!!!

I apologize to everyone for the apparent lack of concern!

NERD

 

[t_mclellan]

Hi Joanna;
I think your question / statement pertaining to Redfoots color variation says exactly what I was saying. What the farm & some others are calling a "Clown phase" , Has coloration that can be found in Redfoots through out their native range. It is not something defined by location that I know of.

Then you comment about knowing location data from a photo.
With an adult there is a good chance of seeing physical characteristics that can give a fairly accurate idea of the genetic origin.
Wild Redfoots may have similar color variation albeit extreme in some cases, That is true.
The physical characteristics vary from 1 location to another. In other words a Redfoot from Surinam could have almost exactly the same color as a Redfoot from Colombia.
BUT when you look at how the animal is physically built, They look nothing alike.
I refer you to Peter Pritchard for a list anatomical differences.
Although it is true that there are no sub-species as of this date, That dose not by any means make them all the same.
As for crosses, There are some wild crosses that help "Muddy" the location issue.
In captivity, The matter worsens!
Also in captive born & bred tortoises of any kind, Even if they are the same sub-species, The majority of people can not give a true original location of the brood stock.
When I made my comment ....

"Dose the fact that the farm is in Colombia mean that the animals they breed are all local or even from that country? NO! I think we all have seen / read or have personal knowledge of animals from far flung locations being kept & bred in captivity.
Even if they have paper work, you can't always rely on it."

That comment referred to more than just Redfoots from 1 farm in Colombia.
The best that most people that own any species of tortoise can do is guess as to the actual origin of their animals.
Other than Don from Kent. or Bill from Denver.

I think all in all you are in agreement with most North American tortoise keepers on all the above points, But 1.
The thought that without a recognized sub-species nobody can tell whether a Redfoot line is from Surinam or Bolivia.

After seeing literally thousands of wild & wild caught Redfoots, Both in the USA & South America The thought comes to mind .... Why are these all lumped together when there are so many differences?

Any way GREAT question!
Thanks.

 

[N2TORTS]

Where ever their from ..thought I might share this " colored one"
Great Info Terry you sure know your torts ... and as far as the " The thought comes to mind .... Why are these all lumped together when there are so many differences?" ....I believe they call that stereo-typing in human terms!
But I believe your insight to physical differences, plays an important role to " local" of species. That alone is " natural selection".
J~
2.2 CHerrys
1.3 Reds
1.1 leopards
1.1 sulcutta
1 box
@
Sally the U2

 

[t_mclellan]

Hi N2TORTS;
Thanks & your Redfoot photo is a beauty too! No matter where that animals blood line began!
I only have trouble with 1 comment in your post.
I am NOT Terry! (I feel a tear in my eye! Nope just dog hair!)
But I do think you hurt 1 of my feelings.( Not sure exactly which 1? Usually they are both over there in that drawer, They don't get out much.)

If you call ne Terry 1 more time I will from that point on refer to you as Brenda!

Any way Good post & thanks for giving me the idea for the thread.

Me
Tom NOT Terry!
( I might have to change my sign in name)

 

[N2TORTS]

Hi N2TORTS;
Thanks & your Redfoot photo is a beauty too! No matter where that animals blood line began!
I only have trouble with 1 comment in your post.
I am NOT Terry! (I feel a tear in my eye! Nope just dog hair!)
But I do think you hurt 1 of my feelings.( Not sure exactly which 1? Usually they are both over there in that drawer, They don't get out much.)

If you call ne Terry 1 more time I will from that point on refer to you as Brenda!

Any way Good post & thanks for giving me the idea for the thread.

Me
Tom NOT Terry!
( I might have to change my sign in name)

Ha ha .. okie dokie "TOM" ...I finally got it ! Thanks for keeping me straight . Love your insights and knowledge the forum is really cool. Iam addicted!
Brenda wont be so bad ..... Ive been called worse!
JD ~
PS . Do ya think if I changed my name to Brenda I'd get a tax break? ...HA Ha HA

 

[t_mclellan]

I've been called worse too ... Today even!
Tax break?
I doubt it, More than likely 3 to 5!

 

[t_mclellan]

Yes, I also think that Redfoots will someday be broken down into sub-species.
I also think it would be correct to do so.
Then again it is possible that (for some reason) the academia of the world view Redfoots in the same manner as the dog.
There are differing characteristics in dogs, Bit they are all 1 species.

AGGgggghhhh! I think I'm getting a migraine!

 

[terryo]

I got a migraine just reading this thread. LOL

 

[t_mclellan]

At least I'm not alone!

 

[Redfoot NERD]

Hi N2TORTS;
Thanks & your Redfoot photo is a beauty too! No matter where that animals blood line began!
I only have trouble with 1 comment in your post.
I am NOT Terry! (I feel a tear in my eye! Nope just dog hair!)
But I do think you hurt 1 of my feelings.( Not sure exactly which 1? Usually they are both over there in that drawer, They don't get out much.)

If you call ne Terry 1 more time I will from that point on refer to you as Brenda!

Any way Good post & thanks for giving me the idea for the thread.

Me
Tom NOT Terry!
( I might have to change my sign in name)

I PM'd Jeff on your behalf Tom.. still not sure of his reply

[ he did say it really didn't sound like something I would say......... whatever that means

]....... "How could your decades of experience and 'WORLD TRAVEL' ever be confused with my 'back-yard' experience"???

T ----------

headache better now?